An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

You would actually infer Gods word to be demonic????

Acts 8
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:

16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

You are in a bad place when you make it your job to pervert Gods word

CYN,
I have never seem that severe of perversion of Gods word...never.

You need prayer

Here are the 2 resurrections and they have NOTHING to do with TIME.


So without suspending reality the FIRST resurrection is OF THE SAVED. It is the resurrection OF BYPASSING DEATH because CHRIST DIED FOR US so THE PENALTY FOR OUR SINS 'DEATH' was paid BEFORE WE GOT THERE. WHAT the law could not do, and so needed to be changed was FORGIVE US OUR SINS.

LET's go back to ADAM. If he had NOT SINNED he would have had rights to the tree of life and NEVER WOULD HAVE DIED.

no sin no death.

Under the law ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO BE WITHOUT SIN OR TRESPASS. Break one 'an evil pondering' and you might as well have laid in wait to murder your neighbor to steal his goods.

sin death

Under grace, even IF YOU HAVE THE SIN of pondering an evil thought THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB SLAIN takes over and washes you clean.

no sin PASS THROUGH DEATH TO LIFE.

WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN TWO BODIES. One SEEN. One NOT SEEN. One of the dust of the earth. One of the heavens. When the SILVER CORD PARTS, or the earthen vessel breaks IT DOESN'T HAVE AN EFFECT ON THE heavenly body.

The only effect 'DEATH of the flesh' brings about

is WHAT COMES NEXT.

Have you RECEIVED THE GIFT OF SALVATION? The saving grace? The blessed hope? IF SO THEN IT IS RESURRECTION TIME, THE FIRST RESURRECTION OF the unseen heavenly body, THE SPIRITUAL BODY/SOUL/SPIRIT SPIRIT goes "to be where HE IS" AND that takes place before the FLESH SEES CORRUPTION

or

THOSE NOT having received the gift of salvation, no saving grace, no forgiveness of sins and trespass, that SAME 2nd body heavenly/spiritual/unseen body goes down to the grave ALONG WITH THE FLESH BODY. And the body begins to decay. NO FIRST RESURRECTION FOR THEM. Their only hope will be to be one of the DEAD to RISE who will, in 1000 years be of the SECOND RESURRECTION to eternal life,

instead of one of the ones cast into the lake of fire in which BODY AND SOUL ARE KILLED, THE SECOND DEATH.



Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead 'lived' not again (The second resurrection) until the thousand years were finished.
Why 'lived' not? Because we are only resurrected to LIFE when through FAITH with take the Lord Jesus Christ as our Saviour. The DEAD can't do that can they? There is NO WAY TO come in FAITH as what is seen and being lived is just LIFE and the DEFINITELY need to be 'proved' and that will take place at the end of the 1000 years when Satan is released a short season.


Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

DO YOU SEE A 'FLESH BODY' THAT IS GOING BACK TO DUST IN THE GRAVE SPEAKING AND SEEING AND ALL THE REST?

I don't care if you see a parable or not THE PRECEPT IS QUITE CLEAR.


1Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

THE DEAD who rise WHEN CHRIST RETURNS ARE RISING UP FROM CORRUPTION. So no matter what, they DON'T RECEIVE THEIR IMMORTALITY, but they are NONE THE LESS RISING IN THEIR SPIRITUAL, HEAVENLY BODY.

remember WHEN CHRIST RETURNS


1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.


NO ONE WILL BE WORRIED ABOUT 'MAN WHO CAN KILL THE FLESH' BECAUSE no death and grave for the 1000 years. DEATH will be in the lake of fire. FEAR HIM who kills BOTH THE BODY AND SOUL.

Pure speculation
DEATH in a spiritual body HAS got to be WAY worse than death in a flesh body.

NOW take all this information and SEE GODS WRATH POURED OUT. THAT is what the 'unsaved' should be in fear of because it doesn't KILL YOU. You make it through it all and continue on. THAT IS GODS VENGEANCE. DEATH can't even save you.


Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

There is no delay in Scripture. Just as there is no 'last day return for resurrection of the body to be made glorious' in Scripture. If there is ANYTHING that states 'spirits are coming back to receive bodies that have been in the dust of the earth' I would like to see it.

'the dead rise first' SAYS NOTHING WHAT SO EVER ABOUT 'spirits being reunited with decayed but remade earth flesh bodies to be glorified' does it?

The alive and remaining being changed in the twinkling of an eye says nothing along those lines either.

I can't think of one place that ever speaks of 'SPIRITS without their bodies' returning to earth with Christ under any circumstances.

I can't think of one place that speaks of SPIRITS reuniting with their bodies

I READ sown and then raised. I need to see sown, gone to heaven, returned, reunited, and raised and I will act accordingly, I promise.


You don't see a pre trib rapture because WHAT THEY SAY ISN'T WHAT IS WRITTEN anywhere. How much different is this?

Praise GOD HE HAS BLESSED US WITH THIS ONE THING in this world, PURIFIED SEVEN TIMES, THE WRITTEN WORDS OF GOD.

Man can 'give explanations' ALL the live long day but those words TELL HIS TRUTH.

When contending with the devil

Psalm 12:3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:

4 Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us?

5 For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him.

6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.




Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to Him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4 But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


IN HIS WORDS OUR LIVES ARE FOUND. NO WHERE ELSE. WE HAVE NOTHING BUT THEM TO DEPEND ON. HOLY HOLY HOLY LORD GOD ALMIGHTY

Interlinear John 5:28,29
Not marvel at this for is coming an hour in which ALL those in the tombs will hear the voice of Him and will come forth those good having done to resurrection of life and those evil having done to resurrection of judgment

And you said "Right!! EVERY dead person's body WILL rise, when their turn comes".

SO ALL HEAR BUT THE ONES HAVING DONE EVIL just get to TO REFUSE FOR 1000 YEARS?

HOW IS it POSSIBLE for them to HEAR THE VOICE AND not obey?

And does 'multitudes' MEAN 'all'? No, it doesn't, so I don't understand the point you are trying to make. If GOD meant multitudes and not all, why didn't He just use multitudes and not all?

Why does it always come down to the same thing 'That isn't what He meant, that is just what is written'. Why do we always try to adjust WHAT IS WRITTEN instead of what we are believing?

AND WHY did I add that? BECAUSE you say THE DEAD THAT RISE are BODIES that have been left behind in the dirt of the earth and NOT ACTUAL 'people' who have died.

What I wrote was

Check it out SOULS SLEEPING IN THE DUST OF THE EARTH Without a single word of 'explanation' and just reading it as it is written it is clear to see these are NOT DEAD BODIES WAITING FOR THEIR 'SPIRITS' TO RETURN TO THEM.


WHY did I write that? I WASN'T ADDING TO THE TEXT AS YOU CAN SEE 'THY PEOPLE' ARE BEING SPOKEN OF NOT 'THY BODIES LEFT IN THE GROUND'.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


AS OPPOSED TO THOSE WHO HAVE SLEPT AND GONE ON TO BE IN HEAVEN.


So the reality is I put the 'souls' back in the ground that you had taken out of the picture all together by claiming it was only decaying corpses of souls in heaven.

Good. And the Bible does NOT say that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven.

Then watch you just keep making up stuff about this fantasy trip to heaven.

FreeGrace2 said:
You will have to suspend reality about when the Bible indicates the 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
The first resurrection of the saved is WHEN the saved get their glorified bodies. So the first resurrection IS related to time.

The TIME when He comes, per 1 Cor 15:23.

This is irrelevant. He did sin, so let's not presume.

No. Christ died for everyone, yet most will be cast into the lake of fire. The "blood of the Lamb" paid the penalty for sin, so man will NOT go to the lake of fire because of sin.

He goes there because he never received the free gift of eternal life. (His name is not in the book of life) Rev 20:15

These statements require evidence from Scripture. The "body of the heavens" is the glorified body believers get "when He comes". Not before. So we HAVWEN'T BEEN GIVEN 2 bodies yet.

I don't know where you are getting your "material".

I don't believe any of this, as it cannot be found in the Bible. There is NO mention of salvation being described or referred to as a "resurrection".

I reject annihilationism. The Bible says that God "is able to kill the soul". But the Bible does NOT say that He has or ever will.

I believe the text of Rev 20 is quite clear. The first resurrection is of ALL believers and WHEN He comes, per 1 Cor 15:23.

So, "the rest of the dead" CANNOT be the saved, because all of them have already been resurrected "when He comes" at the Second Advent.

I've explained this over and over. It seems the concept just isn't sinking in. Or you just reject it.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

DO YOU SEE A 'FLESH BODY' THAT IS GOING BACK TO DUST IN THE GRAVE SPEAKING AND SEEING AND ALL THE REST?[/QUOTE]
I don't understand your question, and since the Bible DOESN'T EXPLAIN the look/substance of the souls of those who have died, I don't get my panties in a twist over it. Just accept what the Word does say.

I think you are just getting in the weeds over this.

I don't see a parable with Lazarus and the rich man. I see life after death as it existed in the OT times, before Jesus took all the saints to heaven after His resurrection.

And I'm not bothered by language that refers to body parts of the dead. I just don't care. It isn't important to anything.

I can't believe that anyone wouldn't easily accept that the "spiritual heavenly body" isn't immortal.

remember WHEN CHRIST RETURNS
1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.[/QUOTE]
This is a reference to the resurrected glorified body that all believers get!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, you are right. That is pure speculation.

Why do you think a spiritual body CAN die?? Where does the Bible say that?

There is so much I disagree with that I don't know where to begin.

Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.[/QUOTE]
Quoting a verse or passage without any comment is not helpful. I have no idea what you think the verse/passage means.

Some things are just so obvious that they don't need to be said.

Apparently our differences are about the status of those who have died and their bodies vs their souls. You haven't been convinced of anything I say, and I think all of this is just very obvious, but it seems you disagree.

Haven't you read 1 Thess 4?

OK, let's go back to square 1.

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Please explain who "those who have fallen asleep" are. They are coming to earth WITH Jesus. So who are they?

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Now, are "the dead in Christ" the SAME or DIFFERENT than "those who have fallen asleep in Him"? If this doesn't resolve your issues, then I guess nothing will.

If you understand what these words mean, your issues should resolve.

I don't see a pretrib rapture because the Bible doesn't describe one. And connecting the dots of very clear verses shows that all believers will be resurrected/changed at the same event, the second advent, which is the first resurrection.

I have repeatedly shared what God's Word says and that is my view.

FreeGrace2 said:
Not sure what I need to convince God of. Could you specify?
I have explained this to you. If you disagree, just address WHERE exactly you disagree.

There is NOTHING here that I need to "convince God of". I don't have a problem with this. Apparently you do.

No, the Bible said it: 1 Cor 15:23

Again, which I already explained.

There are 2 resurrections for the human race. 1 for the saved and 1 for the unsaved. Do you agree? Yes or no.

The resurrection for the saved is "when He comes", which is the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23, Rev 20:5 Agree? Yes or no.

The resurrection for the unsaved will be for the GWT judgment. Rev 20:11-15 Agree? Yes or no.

Please answer these questions. That should illuminate our differences. Thanks.

John 5:28,29 HAS TO BE understood in LIGHT of Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23, 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:5.

FreeGrace2 said:
The word "many" means "multitudes".
I PROVED my point from the Hebrew and Greek words. You are free to reject or believe them.


I never said "all" means "multitudes". You are getting confused again.

The Hebrew word in Dan 12:2 refers to multitudes, as I have already shown.

Mark 10:45 - For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Did Jesus not die for EVERYONE? Of course He did. There are many verses that use the word "pas" for who He died for.

So let's look at the Greek word:
polus: much, many
Original Word: πολύς, πολλή, πολύ
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: polus
Phonetic Spelling: (pol-oos')
Definition: much, many
Usage: much, many; often.
HELPS Word-studies
4183 polýs – many (high in number); multitudinous, plenteous, "much"; "great" in amount (extent).
4183 /polýs ("much in number") emphasizes the quantity involved. 4183 (polýs) "signifies 'many, numerous'; . . . with the article it is said of a multitude as being numerous" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 113,114) – i.e. great in amount.

Are you aware that the ENTIRETY of humanity would be "great in amount", or "numerous"?

If you want to believe that Jesus only died for "many" as in "not all", then you have created a huge contradction in the Bible.

We need to discern and understand what the original language meant. Otherwise, you will create contradictions that aren't actually there. Is that what you're wanting to do?

Since we KNOW that Christ died for ALL, we also KNOW that Mark 10:45 cannot mean "less than all". Again, this is obvious.

But you have to know what words mean and how they WERE USED in the ancient world.

FreeGrace2 said:
The word "souls" isn't in Dan 12:2. You added that to the text.
So you think that "the dead that rise" are only souls? Do you really believe that a person's soul stays in the ground?

I reject "soul sleep" in its entirety. When the Bible speaks of sleeping in regard to physical death, it is referring to the body.

Souls don't sleep. Believers go to be with the Lord. Unbelievers go to Hades.


Please stop this demanding specific wording that satisfies yourself.

Souls are never "in the ground". The saved are with Jesus. Why don't you know that?

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

God is going to restore the kingdom on earth back to Israel.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

God is going to bring the whole house of Israel all 12 tribes back to Israel and leave none of them in the nations anymore and they will Know the LORD their God from that time forward and He will never hide HIs face from the again.

So this has to be a future prophesy for Israel is not in the truth as a nation and when this happens Israel will always be in the truth and never stray again.

If this were a prophesy of the past then Israel as a nation would be in the truth but they are not in the truth.

It will be all straightened out and all 12 tribes will go back to Israel.

The 144,000 are Hebrews according to the flesh.

Jer 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

God will cause all Gentile nations governments to cease ruling and Israel will be the only reigning government when God sets His glory among the heathen.

I don't think you HAVE COMMENTED ON HOW YOU WILL BE RAISED. So
DO YOU believe the movement of the spirit 'is in glory' once the saved soul dies?
(or another way When the 'SPIRIT' ascends without body does the spirit ascend in glory?)


WHY would Jesus tell us there will be NO MARRIAGE in heaven if there are NO 'bodies'? Why would he say we are 'like the angels' when we know angels have bodies?

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

There is nothing in this conversation to HINT that this will only happen when He returns to set up the millennial kingdom. IN HEAVEN.


Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. (AND THE DEAD LIVED NOT)


There are MANY MANY DEAD WALKING AMONGST US TODAY. During the Millennium, there will be many many DEAD walking amongst us again. WHERE DO THEY COME FROM?

THE SHEEP AND GOATS ARE SEPARATED BY CHRIST. WHERE DO THE GOATS COME FROM?


Colossians 2:12 Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

WE OURSELVES HAVE lived while being dead. Some 'live' dead their entire lives. Some 'live' dead only part of their lives. Same in the millennium. The risen dead will be the living dead we will be judging and being priests to untill their names are found in the book of life.


Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.


1 Peter 4:5 Who shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.



Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Philipians 3:9 And be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable unto His death
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.


Ephesians 5:13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.
14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,



Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

In hades or the unseen world of the unsaved. YES.

I BELIEVE THE DEAD THAT RISE ARE THE UNSAVED WHO RISE IN SPIRITUAL BUT LIABLE TO DIE BODIES.

HERE IS WHAT I BELIEVE
Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died,


and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:


the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

What do you believe?

God will cause all Gentile nations governments to cease ruling and Israel will be the only reigning government when God sets His glory among the heathen.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you, Montana 123, because the Lord told me, showed me, proved to me, and confirmed to me, over 23 years, in a manner that was supernatural, and in an order that I know was only possible by me being led by the Holy Spirit, me seeing this in hindsight, that I am descended from a Levite who was taken prisoner by the Assyrian army.
My story has been accepted by a Messianic Rabbi, and 2 Messianic Ephraim/house of Israel ministries. My last contact with one ministry leader was this...
He said, "The Holy Spirit told you this."
I said, "I know."
There is an orthodox Jewish research group with 40 years of investigation that lines up perfectly with what the Lord has shown me.
Ezekiel 37 and Jeremiah 31 are being fulfilled as I write this. Jewish rabbis know that the ten tribes will return because they know that He said that they would.
I'm just an old guy who lives with his son. Due to my poor health, I almost completely live in my room. I don't have any friends. Telling my story online seems to be the only purpose of my life. The Lord anointed me to lead worship back in the '90s. I'm still anointed and perhaps together with my words, this will wake up some to who they really are. Though I'm not sure of this. Shalom.

I agree with you, Montana 123, because the Lord told me, showed me, proved to me, and confirmed to me, over 23 years, in a manner that was supernatural, and in an order that I know was only possible by me being led by the Holy Spirit, me seeing this in hindsight, that I am descended from a Levite who was taken prisoner by the Assyrian army.
My story has been accepted by a Messianic Rabbi, and 2 Messianic Ephraim/house of Israel ministries. My last contact with one ministry leader was this...
He said, "The Holy Spirit told you this."
I said, "I know."
There is an orthodox Jewish research group with 40 years of investigation that lines up perfectly with what the Lord has shown me.
Ezekiel 37 and Jeremiah 31 are being fulfilled as I write this. Jewish rabbis know that the ten tribes will return because they know that He said that they would.
I'm just an old guy who lives with his son. Due to my poor health, I almost completely live in my room. I don't have any friends. Telling my story online seems to be the only purpose of my life. The Lord anointed me to lead worship back in the '90s. I'm still anointed and perhaps together with my words, this will wake up some to who they really are. Though I'm not sure of this. Shalom.[/QUOTE]

The truth is it is all about Israel.

From Abraham to Jacob to king David to Jesus to the millennial reign to the New Jerusalem it is all about Israel.

Which the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles of the Lamb are written in the New Jerusalem.

Some people say that the Church replaces Israel but Israel is the Church.

That is why when a Gentile gets saved they are a Jew inward and they belong to the commonwealth of Israel because Israel is the Church.

The millennial reign is when Jesus rules the earth along with the saints and the kingdom is restored to Israel.

Jesus came to fulfill the law which includes all the roles of Israel which He is the perfect King, prefect High Priest, perfect saint by being sinless, and the temple and sacrifice, and whatever else He had to fulfill.

But He has not fulfilled the role of perfect King and it must be done on earth.

Which during the millennial reign He will fulfill the role of perfect King which also includes Israel as the only reigning government ruling over the Gentile nations who will rule no more.

Which the Bible says in that day the LORD shall be King over all the earth and there shall be one LORD and His name one.

And the heathen have to go up year after year to Jerusalem to worship the LORD and keep the feast of tabernacles to remain right with God during that time.

I believe I have. Believers will be raised in a glorified body. Now, how does the soul of the believer, who is in heaven, get into a glorified
body? Jesus brings the souls with Him (1 Thess 4). That's how they will be raised.

I don't understand the words "movement of the spirit 'is in glory'. What are you referring to?
(or another way When the 'SPIRIT' ascends without body does the spirit ascend in glory?)

He didn't say there wouldn't be bodies. He said there would be no marriages in heaven. We, in our glorified bodies, will be "like the angels". iow, sounds like no one will have sex organs.

Because we will be like angels IN THAT WE WON'T HAVE SEX.

What do you think this means?

No, Jesus didn't say anything about being "IN heaven" as you assume here. Read the 3 verses again.

Jesus was noting how glorified believers will be; like the angels, who neither marry or are given in marriage. iow, NO SEX.

Let the spiritually dead bury their physically dead. What else could Jesus mean?

Why did you add this to the line above?

How do you understand "dead" here?

Huh? Aren't you aware that Jesus used figures of speech to indicate the saved (sheep) and lost (goats).

Reference to spiritual death.

Explain what you think "dead" means here in this paragraph. I'm not sure I know what you mean.

This is "operational death". It means having no production. What do you think Jesus means here?

From the commentary by Dr Utley at FreeBibleCommentaries.com.

4:6 "For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead" There are several theories concerning this phrase:

1. it relates to 1 Petl 3:18-20 (i.e., "the spirits in prison")
2. it refers to all humans because all humans, believers and unbelievers, die physically because of sin (parallel to 1 Pet. 4:5)
3. it refers to those who responded to the gospel but have since died (both AORIST PASSIVES)
4. it refers to the spiritually dead (i.e., the lost) according to Augustine, Bede, Erasmus, and Luther (cf. Luke 15:24,32; Eph. 2:1,5; 5:14; Col. 2:13)

This last theory speculates that some (i.e., those who never heard the gospel) will receive a chance to accept Christ after death. This theory is attractive to human reason, but totally foreign to the rest of Scripture (i.e., Heb. 9:27). It negates the urgency and necessity of evangelism and missions now! I think option 1 or 3 best fits the context.

I hope this helps.

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The figure of speech 'awake you who sleeps" is found in several passages, all having to do with being alert.

Rom 13:11-14, Eph 5:14,15, 1 Thess 5:6-9, Rev 3:1-3, Rev 16:15

All these verses are about warning against being out of fellowship with the Lord.

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Please add comment to verses/passages so I will know how to respond. Thanks.

The truth is it is all about Israel.

From Abraham to Jacob to king David to Jesus to the millennial reign to the New Jerusalem it is all about Israel.

Which the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles of the Lamb are written in the New Jerusalem.

Some people say that the Church replaces Israel but Israel is the Church.

That is why when a Gentile gets saved they are a Jew inward and they belong to the commonwealth of Israel because Israel is the Church.

The millennial reign is when Jesus rules the earth along with the saints and the kingdom is restored to Israel.

Jesus came to fulfill the law which includes all the roles of Israel which He is the perfect King, prefect High Priest, perfect saint by being sinless, and the temple and sacrifice, and whatever else He had to fulfill.

But He has not fulfilled the role of perfect King and it must be done on earth.

Which during the millennial reign He will fulfill the role of perfect King which also includes Israel as the only reigning government ruling over the Gentile nations who will rule no more.

Which the Bible says in that day the LORD shall be King over all the earth and there shall be one LORD and His name one.

And the heathen have to go up year after year to Jerusalem to worship the LORD and keep the feast of tabernacles to remain right with God during that time.[/QUOTE]
In my understanding, the gentile church is a part of Israel. It appears to me that the Lord has a reason for keeping some biological Hebrews. When it comes to one's worth, I strongly believe we are equal. He just has His purposes...and I don't believe He's a racist.