You need both water baptism and the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit.

Well...you do take my posts seriously or i wouldn't be doing this post.;.

Can't agree it is..."wimpy"...your choice. Personally, I would not respond to...wimpy posts....

....and because you are playing the typical .....leftist transference game ...of tying up ......informative Bible knowledge.

...and My ..."wrong"...is designed to defeat that.

It is working.

Well, maybe that's a start.

It was your non "answer" that was wimpy. It didn't address anything. Simply saying "wrong" achieves nothing.

Total nonsense here. I provide verses that say what I believe and say the opposite of much of what you claim.

Defeat what, exactly? Seems you major in being very vague.

Thats actually part of the reason I kept pointing Jeff towards the actual verse. Arguing about forgiveness is a moot point / non-argument because the verse (at least in KJV) isn't talking about John forgiving sins.

The verse IS talking about remission (segregating the sin from the person, creating a separation/distance between sin and sinner, removing the sin from the sinner). That's not the same as forgiveness (but they are closely related). And John WAS sent with the tool/action that is established by God FOR remission of sins. And he had full authority to use it to that end.

Even if forgiveness is involved. God (not John) is the one who has to forgive because the offenses were made against God, not John. If God decided to forgive AS the people submitted to John's baptism (because God set it up), That's still God forgiving... (while John is doing the removal/remission action and the individual is receiving the benefits.)

That might take a few readings to internalize. And yes, you can/could fully understand what I said and still disagree.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

@Magenta
And you must be a fast reader because I was still reviewing my post when your Heart icon showed up. I was honestly impressed.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I read, re-read, re-write, read (possibly repeat those first steps a few times), re-read, post if it seems close enough, then re-read and edit until the 5 minutes runs out. lol Then I re-read it and usually what the other person wrote...a few times.. lol

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

BTW, a better argument against "Baptism for remission" would be "repentence for remission" because of the wording in Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3 and even Acts 2:38.... but that argument doesn't come up because it still leads to the fact that the end result is remission of sins and THAT is the unbelievable part (for many) ESPECIALLY with John's baptism because it was BEFORE the atonement was made. That idea/obstacle blinded my eyes for about 30 years, until God opened it to me recently (with a bunch of other stuff). Thank God He was willing to explain how it works... and from at least 2 different directions.

I'm going to share something here that I usually wouldn't share.

Most people approach God as if it is unlikely that God will speak openly in response.... And they get what they believe for....it is unlikely that God will speak openly to them. They do that because of what they choose to focus on in the scriptures.

I (and some others) approach God as if it is likely that God will speak openly in response....because that's what I see (focus on) him doing in the scriptures for those who seek him (like David, Peter, Moses... and even Ananias in Acts 9)... Should it surprise anyone that I, too, get what I believe for?


Love in Jesus,
Kelby

@Magenta
I hope you read post 147 because the difference in outlook is directly related to the difference in outcome. And I'd not want you to miss the greater opportunity in prayer.

But the reason I'm writing this is that I want to know "Would you still like me to answer your posts #129 & #134?"

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

You keep using the word "Forgive". But John wasn't baptizing a baptism for "Forgiveness" it was "Remission" There's a difference.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I think many people have a problem with John's baptism being "For the remission of sins" because they (unlike the people being baptized by John) have most often heard of Jesus FIRST... And associate all possibility of remission with what Jesus already accomplished... and can't comprehend that the tool for remission of sins was already in place and was effective by Faith in God, by faith that God WOULD (not had) provide one (the messiah) to make the atonement... BEFORE it was known WHO that messiah IS. They had to trust God before knowing Jesus.

And if they didn't learn how to do that, they couldn't discern who Jesus was even when he was standing in their midst.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. [45] It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

If you don't learn how to hear from God in your prayer closet. It is 'unlikely' that you will be able to hear/understand/grasp/ truly believe the same words from Jesus.


Love in Jesus,
Kelby

5-minute editing period expired before I could add "or those sent by him".

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I used to speak in tongues a lot. I found it helpful to begin with. After many years, the desire faded away. I have nothing against tongues, and I do believe they are genuine. I also believe that there is overemphasis on tongues. It's the least of the gifts. I still exercise word of wisdom, discernment and word of knowledge. My friend and fellow worker is about my age (70) and she still speaks in tongues. That's fine by me.

John 3:16 is really the only Scripture needed to show that salvation comes from believing in Jesus, not in being dunked in water.

As well, there is Ephesians, Chapter 4:
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

That baptism is the baptism of the Holy Spirit.......not water baptism

As for time spent in Scripture, what does it serve a man to spend his life in Scripture when he does so with no understanding of the Scriptures? And, apparently, you have been wasting a whole lot of your time/life doing just that.

Using that philosophy (which is wrong) then repentance is not necessary...or..... please explain the difference?

John 3;16 establishes the umbrella under which we are forgiven of sins........ providing .......
we do some things;

1 Repentance
2 Baptism,
3 Righteous life style.

You have a errand to do yet and that is to explain the scriptures posted that requires baptism...you haven't done that are you going to?

We see that regarding other ........new age religion beliefs....but, we are reminded that the Bible never changes.

Caution...
Editions of the bible do change
Interpretations of the bible do change
New denominations do change
etc.

All occurring since the 1960's era.

The Bible says ...in the end times great deceptions will occur. We are there.

None of those support your position.

Answer the questions posed?

It is because of the new age movement that the world rebels against God.

1. Evolution.

2. Gave birth to the new age movement that interprets the Bible, and religions according to the occult and evolution, and people are still evolving to be spiritual.

3. The occult believes in astrology, horoscope, and this is the age of Aquarius the age of peace so they will try to pursue that peace on earth for they believe nature would want them to do that so they will harmonize the nations governments and religions with all religions interpreted according to the new age movement.

4. They do not believe the New Age Christ will help them to evolve and have peace until the nations come together as one and work for peace on earth a global government and global religion so they will work on that.

5. The New Age Christ will be of the new age movement and the occult and when he works in the world he will push the agenda of the new age movement until the world rebels against God.

6. Technology that caused them to be able to communicate with each other to come together but it is not according to the will of God.

The new age movement the beginning of the end.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

God warns the saints of the new age movement, and their interpretation of the Bible based on the occult, and evolution, and people are still evolving to be spiritual provided by the New Age Christ, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior, but a good teacher and love, and the Christ conscience came upon him, and he evolved to be an ascended master, and believe in no personal God, but honor the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power, the evolutionary process, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher, and he will evolve to be greater than Jesus, and share this power with all people who follow him.

They will forbid to marry for a man and a woman for population reduction, and command to abstain from meats, reverence of nature, mother earth.

The new age movement will pave the way to the beast kingdom for all people who do not love God where they will take the mark of the beast, and then repentance and salvation are no longer available to the world, and God will end sin on earth, and have His people will Him.

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables(2 Timothy 4:2-4).

The time will come when the world will not want to hear the truth of the Bible, but want to hear it according to their own lusts the new age movement.

The New Age Christ will establish peace in the Middle East, and work as a great man of peace, and push the agenda of the new age movement in the world to prepare the world for when he claims to be God by harnessing the power of nature, and evolving, and will share this power with all people who follow him.

Alice Bailey the biggest prophet of the new age movement wrote many books speaking of the coming united religious system, one world government, and New Age Christ, and other occult things, and they set up a web site lucistrust.org promoting her books and writing which she interpreted the Bible according to the occult and evolution.

She was married to a Freemason who agreed with her writing, so he is of the inner circle of Freemason, which there is an inner circle and outer circle of the occult, and Alice Bailey said the inner circle is the true church.

The inner circle is too extreme in the occult for mainstream society so they put out a lighter version an outer circle that is more tolerable to the people to get them interested in a light version of the occult.

When the New Age Christ establishes peace in the Middle East he will push the agenda of the new age movement and the people will lust more for power through nature and when the New Age Christ claims to be God and to set up his kingdom the outer circle became the inner circle and the beast kingdom will be accepted by those who do not keep the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The new age movement has an inner circle as well as Freemason, and the Mormon church, and Scientology, and Christian Science, and churches who have great deception such as them as well as many occult groups.

They are trying to get the world to go in the direction of the New Age Christ kingdom so that Lucifer can set up a kingdom which they believe Lucifer will help people to evolve spiritually.

The esoteric meaning of Lucifer, how they interpret the Bible.

There are comments on the World Wide Web claiming that the Lucis Trust was once called the Lucifer Trust. Such was never the case. However, for a brief period of two or three years in the early 1920’s, when Alice and Foster Bailey were beginning to publish the books published under her name, they named their fledgling publishing company “Lucifer Publishing Company”. By 1925 the name was changed to Lucis Publishing Company and has remained so ever since.Both “Lucifer” and “Lucis” come from the same word root, lucis being the Latin generative case meaning of light. The Baileys' reasons for choosing the original name are not known to us, but we can only surmise that they, like the great teacher H.P. Blavatsky, for whom they had enormous respect, sought to elicit a deeper understanding of the sacrifice made by Lucifer. Alice and Foster Bailey were serious students and teachers of Theosophy, a spiritual tradition which views Lucifer as one of the solar Angels, those advanced Beings Who Theosophy says descended (thus “the fall”) from Venus to our planet eons ago to bring the principle of mind to what was then animal-man. In the theosophical perspective, the descent of these solar Angels was not a fall into sin or disgrace but rather an act of great sacrifice, as is suggested in the name “Lucifer” which means light-bearer.

Gave you the Scriptures..........there is ONLY ONE BAPTIST that concerns salvation, and that is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Because you are unable to properly discern Scripture is not my fault. What you are teaching is an abomination to the Gospel of Jesus, and Gods salvation plan contained in the New Covenant.

Folks like you often use:

Acts, Chapter 2
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What you folks get wrong is WHY a person is baptized:

Repent..........turn to God/away from sinful life/confess sins and ask forgiveness.....this is when the precious blood of Jesus is applied and cleanses us and we are made worthy to be called children of God.

.........and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin.......

WHY ARE YOU BEING BAPTIZED?

1) to have your sins forgiven? No. The BLOOD OF JESUS is what washes us clean not water............

2) because your sins were forgiven when you were baptizez? YES!!!!!

Water baptism is the "outward" act of obedience that serves as witness to the world and the Church that one has become a believer in and disciple of Jesus.

Why your statememnt is so alarmingly dangerous.....there are people who actually believe you know of what you speak, and you are misleading them, and you WILL answer to God for all you mislead with your false theology.

THIS WAY:

repent and jump for joy for the forgiveness of sin..........

are you jumping for joy to have your sins forgiven? NO

you are jumping for joy BECAUSE your sins were forgiven when you were baptized

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(born of water.......a womans water breaks when a child is born. nothing to do with water baptism. that is just silly)

Romans 6:4 - Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

(showing that water baptism is SYMBOLIC of the Holy Spirit baptism which is part of salvation)


Matthew 3:11 - I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

(again.......symbolic reference to water baptism and acknowledgement that the TRUE BAPTISM that matters is the Holy Spirit baptism)

Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

We are baptized into Christ through the Holy Spirit baptism............

you are a false teacher with false theology, and you are doing great harm to any who are seeking salvation and understanding of Scripture.

It is clear that you are not Sanctified, in that you have received the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit which teaches us the "spiritual meaning" of Scripture. I doubt you even believe in the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

You are not worhty of fellowship IMP

Mark 1:4-5 KJV

Luke 3:2-3 KJV

Luke 1:76-77 KJV (Zachariah full of the Holy Ghost and prophesying over his newly-born son John the baptist)
And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; [77] To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

What people struggle to believe and/or understand is that salvation is a gate and a way, not an instantaneous event. John was ONLY sent with the "remission of sins" portion. He was NOT sent to give a single person the other portion "the Holy Ghost". And even God himself cannot give you the "what you do with it" portion. Both Jesus and John the baptist taught accordingly.

In Matt. 25.... Jesus told of the 10 virgins IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD who were invited (even commanded) to go meet their bridegroom. And he told of the servants (chosen, accounted worthy, given talents, and told to wait for their master's return. Sound familiar??). The master KNEW how much to give each one based on their abilities... and he fully trusted them to perform (not micromanaging)... But it was NOT up to the master (who was obviously willing to give even more) as to what each person did with their chosen, gifted status.

John the Baptist in Luke 3:8-9 etc warned that "Hey, I baptize you indeed, but if you don't bring forth the FRUIT of the status you're being given, you're going to get CUT OFF and burned." (paraphrased)

BOTH were saying hey, there's a chosen, cleaned, invited, worthy status that can be granted to you freely (that's a gate)... But what you DO with it (that's a way) is going to make a HUGE difference when the master returns. And those who USE it unwisely will be cast out.
Gotta give the devil the (biblical) credit for being a master deceiver. Most are being taught that salvation is ONLY a gate. And they don't even get that right. On the one side of the gate is remission of sins...(gotta have that). And on the other side is receiving the Holy Ghost... (gotta have that, too).

Remission of sins (the tool for it) was established by God through John the baptist...BEFORE Jesus' ministry. (and continues thru and after with NO command to cease)
The Holy Ghost was established (manifested, poured out) by God AFTER Jesus' ministry, starting on the day of Pentecost (and continues "unto ALL the Lord shall call"...with NO command to cease).

Remission of sins removes the bad that we can't take to heaven...IF we submit to the tool he established for it.
The Holy Ghost adds/brings/gives the good that we need to make it into heaven (Spirit prayer, Spirit of adoption, helpeth our infirmities, gifts/tools to reach fulness of stature, etc)...IF we eventually and actually receive it. (read all the examples where it didn't come immediately)

God purposely seperated those by the length of Jesus earthly ministry... So you have to learn to trust God about baptism for remission of sins part before Jesus even steps onto the scene or you will miss out on that part. And you have to learn to trust God about the Holy Ghost part (as weird as the speaking in tongues part seems) after Jesus left the scene, or you'll miss out on that part. It is as Jesus said... if you don't learn to receive from the Father, you won't actually make it to me" (paraphrased).

John 6:43-45 KJV

John 6:64-65 KJV

Those verses are saying that you've GOT to go to God and learn how to ask him the hard questions and stay with him until he ANSWERS or you'll never be able to truly know what is of God and what is not. He WILL answer. And He WILL guide you HOW to ask the questions correctly if you're really wanting to know. And he will help you to believe, etc. But he cannot do it if you don't ASK.

And as I pointed out in Post 147, if you decide to believe that God doesn't love you enough to answer, he would have no choice but to give you according to your belief (unbelief). But if you can trust that God loves you the way that he says he does... or even come to him willing to let him answer according to his love rather than your faith/unbelief... that gives him the opportunity to move (as long as you don't retract the question(s) ).

YES, I'm imploring and beseeching. But can you REALLY say that you're fully satisfied with your current level of results in prayer? Do you REALLY feel that what you have now (in God) is all that he's wanting to give? Do you REALLY have the confidence that you know you should? If not, what do you have to lose by asking and believing God to answer? Does he not PROMISE to answer? (ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be OPENED to you).

Well, that's about as good as I can offer it for today. He that hath an ear, let him hear. (Seek God. He loves you.)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

It is scriptures you disagree with...not me.Be wrong as you wish.
I will follow God's word.

Baptism is Required



Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10;47 ....Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.


Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bib