What does "the coming of the Lord" in the NT refer to?

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FreeGrace2

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This passage is probably the most used to teach about a pretribulational rapture.

1 These 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

In this passage we have 3 mentions of Jesus "coming back" to earth.

But, does it refer to a pretribulational rapture, where Jesus glorifies all believers and then takes them to heaven?

No, it doesn't. In the OT, there are only two mentions of the Messiah's advents "comings". The first one was as a baby and the suffering servant. The second advent will be as King of kings and Lord of lords, to reign the nations with a rod of iron.

Some will argue that Jesus came back to earth to meet Paul on the road to Damascus, and other such sightings, etc.

However, since the OT prophesied about just TWO advents, and we KNOW that Jesus WILL return at the Second Advent, 1 Thess 4:14-17 describes His Second Advent, and not a pretribulational visit to earth.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Here, Paul states that there will be TWO resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse very clearly says that the single resurrection of the saved (those who belong to Him) will occur "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, prophesied in the OT.
 
Artios1

Artios1

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Doesn’t say He comes back to earth…We meet him in the air. That is one of several major differences between the gathering together unto Him (rapture) and when Jesus Comes back to the earth on the Lords day.

One other thing ….there are no scripture in the OT.... including the gospels that give reference to the rapture. The entire grace administration was kept hid in God and not revealed until after Pentecost.
 
J

jb

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Feb 27, 2010
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Artios1 said:
Doesn’t say He comes back to earth…We meet him in the air. That is one of several major differences between the gathering together unto Him (rapture) and when Jesus Comes back to the earth on the Lords day....
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Complete Twaddle!
 
J

justpassinthrough

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Oct 31, 2015
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FreeGrace2 said:
This passage is probably the most used to teach about a pretribulational rapture.

1 These 4-
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

In this passage we have 3 mentions of Jesus "coming back" to earth.

But, does it refer to a pretribulational rapture, where Jesus glorifies all believers and then takes them to heaven?

No, it doesn't. In the OT, there are only two mentions of the Messiah's advents "comings". The first one was as a baby and the suffering servant. The second advent will be as King of kings and Lord of lords, to reign the nations with a rod of iron.

Some will argue that Jesus came back to earth to meet Paul on the road to Damascus, and other such sightings, etc.

However, since the OT prophesied about just TWO advents, and we KNOW that Jesus WILL return at the Second Advent, 1 Thess 4:14-17 describes His Second Advent, and not a pretribulational visit to earth.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Here, Paul states that there will be TWO resurrections; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse very clearly says that the single resurrection of the saved (those who belong to Him) will occur "when He comes", which is the Second Advent, prophesied in the OT.
Click to expand...

The coming of the Lord, (Parousia) refers to His visible return to earth, with His saints from heaven, (the dead in Christ) to gather His people together at the resurrection and rapture and destroy the wicked, including the antichrist.


As you already pointed out, the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.



For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


  • that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


So we see here that the resurrection and rapture occur at the coming of the Lord, in which the resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them.


  • Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


It’s clear to see that the resurrection and rapture are one event that occurs at His coming.



If we read on, we also see the wicked as destroyed, because the coming of the Lord is called the Day of the Lord.



Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:17-5:3


  • you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them



Three distinct things happen at the coming of the Lord:


  1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ
  2. The Rapture
  3. The destruction of the wicked, including the antichrist




JPT
 
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FreeGrace2

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#5
Artios1 said:
Doesn’t say He comes back to earth…We meet him in the air. That is one of several major differences between the gathering together unto Him (rapture) and when Jesus Comes back to the earth on the Lords day.
Click to expand...
Every verse that mentions the "coming of the Lord" refers to the Second Advent. The OT prophesied about His two advents only.

My point was to show that 1 Thess 4 which specifically refers to "the coming of the Lord" is taken to be a "rapture" passage, which is supposed to precede the Second Advent by 7 years.

Yet, there are NO verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers from the resurrection to heaven.

Further, there is only ONE resurrection of the saved. Not a series of them, or stages of the "one" resurrection. No. There is just ONE.

So, if that resurrection were to occur before the Tribulation, then NO believer that survives the Tribulation will be resurrected or glorified. Can't happen.

One other thing ….there are no scripture in the OT.... including the gospels that give reference to the rapture.
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Because there won't be any glorified trip to heaven. Can't be found in the NT either.

The entire grace administration was kept hid in God and not revealed until after Pentecost.
Click to expand...
Right. But the point is that 1 Thess 4 is about the Second Advent, which is when the SINGLE resurrection of all believers will occur.

Consider:
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. IOW, one each.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

This verse clearly shows there is just ONE resurrection for the saved (those who belong to Him), and it is "when He comes", again, a direct reference to the Second Advent.
 
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FreeGrace2

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justpassinthrough said:
Three distinct things happen at the coming of the Lord:
  1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ
  2. The Rapture
  3. The destruction of the wicked, including the antichrist
JPT
Click to expand...
Could you explain what you mean by "rapture" please? I was brought up being taught that it was when Jesus comes "in the air" and glorifies all believers, both living and dead, and taking them to heaven.

Is your view different?
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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I believe it refers to the rapture. But I don't believe in a pretrib rapture and I don't see how that can be inferred from the passage.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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FreeGrace2 said:
...to meet the Lord in the air...
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This should be sufficient to refute any idea that Christ will come to earth at the Resurrection/Rapture. "To meet the Lord in the air" means exactly that. And for those who refuse to accept a Pretribulation Rapture, they would be well advised to study the purpose of the Resurrection/Rapture, and why it has absolutely no relation to any Tribulation period.

The Second Coming of Christ is in fact a coming down to earth with all His saints and angels. And it takes place at least seven years after the Rapture.
 
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FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
...to meet the Lord in the air...
Nehemiah6 said:
This should be sufficient to refute any idea that Christ will come to earth at the Resurrection/Rapture.
Click to expand...
The words only indicate WHERE the believers will MEET the Lord. The passage wasn't indicating everything that will occur.

"To meet the Lord in the air" means exactly that.
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Yes, I agree.

And for those who refuse to accept a Pretribulation Rapture, they would be well advised to study the purpose of the Resurrection/Rapture, and why it has absolutely no relation to any Tribulation period.
Click to expand...
First you mention "refusing to accept a Pretrib rapture", then you end with the rapture having "absolutely no relatino to any Tribulatino period". Well, it certainly DOES, if either pre or post Trib. How can you not see that?

The Second Coming of Christ is in fact a coming down to earth with all His saints and angels. And it takes place at least seven years after the Rapture.
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Didn't you read the verses in the OP about there being a SINGLE resurrection for each the saved and the unsaved?

There can be NO pretrib resurrection, or that would leave out all believers from the Trib. And Rev 20:5 shows clearly that the resurrection of the saved is post trib.
 
F

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
Thank you for your opinion. Now, if you have Scriptural evidence for whatever you believe, please share.
jb said:
Have a look Here
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From the post linked:

"From the above points it is absolutely clear that Matt 24 is addressed to the Church of Christ, and that there will be a post-tribulation advent of Christ and rapture of the Church."

I agree that Matt 24 was addressed to NT believers, even though they didn't exist at the time He said it. And yes, I agree that there will be a post-tribulation Advent of Christ and resurrection, as shown in Rev 20:5.

Could you please define or explain what the word "rapture" means to you?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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FreeGrace2 said:
The words only indicate WHERE the believers will MEET the Lord. The passage wasn't indicating everything that will occur.
Click to expand...
Of course it was. Everything pertaining to the Resurrection/Rapture is right there.
 
Blain

Blain

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The coming of the Lord is used to mean him coming back for his bride often but the question I would pose is whether or not his coming refers to the day of the lord or not as the day of the lord is not a good thing and would be a good place to start instead of basing the belief off of the phrase alone. if in fact it does refer to the day of the Lord then it is not a pretribulation term unless by some means the rapture had already occured and we all are coming back with him to fight in armaggedon in which case we would need to build a strong case for as to how the rapture had occured beforehand however if in fact it does not refer to the day of the Lord then it can only mean a pretrib rapture term and he is indeed coming for his bride in this instance. so again i pose the question does it refer to the day of the Lord?
 
Mem

Mem

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Blain said:
The coming of the Lord is used to mean him coming back for his bride often but the question I would pose is whether or not his coming refers to the day of the lord or not as the day of the lord is not a good thing and would be a good place to start instead of basing the belief off of the phrase alone. if in fact it does refer to the day of the Lord then it is not a pretribulation term unless by some means the rapture had already occured and we all are coming back with him to fight in armaggedon in which case we would need to build a strong case for as to how the rapture had occured beforehand however if in fact it does not refer to the day of the Lord then it can only mean a pretrib rapture term and he is indeed coming for his bride in this instance. so again i pose the question does it refer to the day of the Lord?
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If you enter "day of the lord" into Bible Hub's search engine using quotation marks, it will bring up the verses containing that exact phrase where a majority, well okay, all of them have a fearful, terrible, and foreboding tone attached to them. But, there is at least one,

Corinthians 5:5, that provides a hint of the hope in that day:
..."hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord."

This contains the implication that spirit receiving a resurrection of, or changing into, an incorruptible body, which occurs at the rapture and so connects it with the Day of the Lord.
 
Pilgrimshope

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justpassinthrough said:
The coming of the Lord, (Parousia) refers to His visible return to earth, with His saints from heaven, (the dead in Christ) to gather His people together at the resurrection and rapture and destroy the wicked, including the antichrist.


As you already pointed out, the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.



For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


  • that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


So we see here that the resurrection and rapture occur at the coming of the Lord, in which the resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them.


  • Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


It’s clear to see that the resurrection and rapture are one event that occurs at His coming.



If we read on, we also see the wicked as destroyed, because the coming of the Lord is called the Day of the Lord.



Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:17-5:3


  • you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them



Three distinct things happen at the coming of the Lord:


  1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ
  2. The Rapture
  3. The destruction of the wicked, including the antichrist




JPT
Click to expand...
amen it’s one great and sudden event.

like the flood Noah was preparing because he heard the lords word the moment he and his family entered the ark the floods came suddenly and destroyed the world in the same event Noah is saved , the world is destroyed

or like sodom and Gomorrah lot was led out of the city by God the moment he left fire rained down from heaven and destroyed the cities.

as soon as Jesus comes and gathers his people destruction will arrive And the pouring out of Gods wrath in full in creation.

just before this Jesus has gathered all
His people from the beginning of time till the end the living the dead and the long sleeping all gathered together with the lord in one moment when that happens everything else is doomed the same moment
 
F

FreeGrace2

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FreeGrace2 said:
The words only indicate WHERE the believers will MEET the Lord. The passage wasn't indicating everything that will occur.
Nehemiah6 said:
Of course it was. Everything pertaining to the Resurrection/Rapture is right there.
Click to expand...
Then, please quote the exact words that teach that Jesus takes all the glorified believers to heaven.

Once you do that, please explain the "first resurrection" in Rev 20:5 which is AFTER the Tribulation. And Numerous verses clearly teach that there is just one resurrection for the saved. Matt 22:30, Luke 14:14, Acts 24:15, 1 Cor 15:23.
 
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