Election and predestination.

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Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Agreed. Calvinism when boiled down takes free will or choice away from mankind. The foreknowledge of God already knows who is in the Book of life but their choice. That choice has then predestined to reap the harvest of Jesus's sacrifice.
Yeah what God knows of the future really doesn’t affect us we’re in the position of choosing life or death . God knowing who will choose life doesn’t remove our accountability we still have to choose

one thing God doesn’t do is force anyone against thier will. God knows the past present and future but we don’t we live in the present and the future is unknown To us so our daily choices determine where we end up again God already knows but it’s unknown To us

we have to look from our perspective bekng the creation rather than relying on what God foreknows because we don’t know what that all is even for our own soul we need to live each day as if he’s coming soon so we’re ready
 

Iconoclast

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May 27, 2017
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I foreknew that calvinists would redefine "foreknew"!...
"If It Doesn't Fit, You Must Acquit...er...Fix It"
It is laziness on your part not to search out the biblical meaning and obey it.
Tell us how you studied it out?
 

Iconoclast

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May 27, 2017
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This subject has been covered a lot. The Bible clearly states that God chose (the elect) and predestined those He chose to be saved. However, the question remains, on what basis did God save the elect?

The conundrum revolves around God's declared will. It states clearly that God wants all mankind to be saved:

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance."

If God predestines certain people that He has chosen to be saved, how come He did not simply elect everyone? That would ensure that no one perished. The reality is that many do not repent and do indeed perish.

The answer is found in Romans 8:29

"For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers."

God knew beforehand who would accept His Son. That is the basis for election and predestination. God is not unfair or unjust. God is love. Even though He knows who will reject the Son, He requires that the gospel be preached to all mankind. No one will stand before God claiming that they have been hard done by. Lord Jesus chose Judas, knowing that the false apostle would betray Him. Even at the last, Lord Jesus called Judas "friend".
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
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"Gideon300,
Gideon300,

[God knew beforehand who would accept His Son. That is the basis for election and predestination. ]

Completely wrong. You will never find truth with this.
The basis for all redemptive History is found in the Covenant of Redemption.
If you do not start with that, you have nothing but wrong guesses
 
Jul 24, 2021
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It is laziness on your part not to search out the biblical meaning and obey it.
Tell us how you studied it out?
Ok.
The false premise of predestination, leads one to all sorts of rabbit holes. The main one is calling God the Author of sin. Reject predestination and obey the Scriptures. The "foreknowledge conundrum" as calvinists call it disappears. Need I elaborate?
 
May 2, 2021
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Just been thinking about adoption and how there was 2 thoughts regarding the time of adoption earlier in this post. The quoted verses are both in Romans 8.
1) 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God
2) 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

It seems we (adoptees) are adopted by law and are legally children by adoption but not living with our new parent (adopter) GOD. Like a child being adopted from another country. There is time between the moment the legal rights are granted by the relevant authorities' and the moment the adoptee and adopter actually are physically together. From the moment the legal rights are granted the adoptee can rightfully make contact with the adopter from another country and call him 'Father'. As can we from earth to heaven call our Adopter 'Abba, Father' until His Son from heaven comes to get us and takes us home then we will see our Father face to face.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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"Gideon300,
Gideon300,

[God knew beforehand who would accept His Son. That is the basis for election and predestination. ]

Completely wrong. You will never find truth with this.
The basis for all redemptive History is found in the Covenant of Redemption.
If you do not start with that, you have nothing but wrong guesses
1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Gideon300 is on solid biblical grounds.
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
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Ok.
The false premise of predestination, leads one to all sorts of rabbit holes. The main one is calling God the Author of sin. Reject predestination and obey the Scriptures. The "foreknowledge conundrum" as calvinists call it disappears. Need I elaborate?
God is not the author of sin.
There is no conundrum at all.
Whom He did foreknow....is the elect children the Father has given to the Son.
They alone are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son.
Very simple.
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
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1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Gideon300 is on solid biblical grounds.
No...Romans 8:29-30 is very clear.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
By "no", are you actually saying that 1 Peter 1:1-2 is wrong???

It is just as right s Rom 8:29-30.

Romans 8:29-30 is very clear.
How do these verses teach something different that 1 Peter 1? Could you please clarify?

Here's the thing: "election" isn't even mentioned in Romans 8.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

In v.28 to "call" is to "invite" in the Greek.
In v.29 God predestined those He foreknows. For what purpose: to be conformed to the image of His Son. This isn't about salvation, but about SAVED people being called (invited) to be conformed to the image of His Son. iow, to be "Christ-like".
v.30 strings together all that God has done for believers. Called, justified, glorified.

Notice all 3 are in the aorist (past tense), even though NO human being as been glorified yet, except Jesus.

But Paul is so certain that all believers will be glorified in the future, he puts it in the aorist tense.
 

Iconoclast

Senior Member
May 27, 2017
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FreeGrace2 said:
1 Peter 1
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

By "no", are you actually saying that 1 Peter 1:1-2 is wrong???

It is just as right s Rom 8:29-30.


How do these verses teach something different that 1 Peter 1? Could you please clarify?

Here's the thing: "election" isn't even mentioned in Romans 8.

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

In v.28 to "call" is to "invite" in the Greek.
In v.29 God predestined those He foreknows. For what purpose: to be conformed to the image of His Son. This isn't about salvation, but about SAVED people being called (invited) to be conformed to the image of His Son. iow, to be "Christ-like".
v.30 strings together all that God has done for believers. Called, justified, glorified.

Notice all 3 are in the aorist (past tense), even though NO human being as been glorified yet, except Jesus.

But Paul is so certain that all believers will be glorified in the future, he puts it in the aorist tense.
Your ideas on the term foreknowledge are not consistent with the biblical usage.

https://gbtseminary.org/the-golden-chain-of-redemption/

By Allen S. Nelson IV
Romans 8:28 is one of the most precious verses of Scripture to believers. And it is inseparable from Romans 8:29-30 which reminds us that God’s plan is an eternal one.

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Some have called Romans 8:29-30 the Golden Chain of Redemption. Each link is connected to the other in such a way as to form an unbreakable chain that ought to encourage the believer and bring tremendous comfort to any weary Christian soul.

No matter what happens in the Christian’s life, there is an unbreakable plan that God has decreed from eternity past. This is good news indeed. Let’s now consider this golden chain of redemption. There are 5 links. It begins in Romans 8:29. The first link is:

Foreknown
For those whom He foreknew… Now, some want to suggest that foreknowledge means God knows who will choose them and then in response chooses them. Of course, that’s not in the text is it?

The text says He foreknew those, that is, a people. Yes, God does know all choices. But the text doesn’t say He knew choices. Rather, He knew a people. If foreknowledge means God predestined those already predisposed to choosing Him, then that rips the whole text apart. For God to predestine those who already destine themselves would be illogical and do injustice to the text.

God doesn’t choose those He knows will be Holy anyway. That makes grace no longer grace. So, what does foreknowledge mean?

I agree with Matthew Henry who said, “God’s foreknowledge of the saints is the same with that everlasting love wherewith he is said to have loved them. God’s knowing his people is the same with his owning them.” God fore-loved a people. That’s step 1 in this unbreakable path of redemption.

Predestined
The word “predestined” is used in both v.29 and v.30. The English word will suffice for our understanding. It simply means to be “destined” beforehand.

So, what do we do with this word that has stirred up no small amount of controversy? Do we leave it out of the Bible? Do we allow it to fuel heated debates? Or do we let it comfort us?

God did not have to reveal the glorious truth of predestination to us, but He did. Why? Well, first, to magnify His glory! But also so that we would be comforted by His sovereignty and humbled by His grace. So, here’s what the biblical teaching of predestination really does. It takes salvation out of my hands. It takes it out of your hands.

It takes salvation out of your neighbors’ hands. It takes it out of the nations’ hands. And it places it solely in the hands of our sovereign and gracious God.

As John Bunyan wrote, “To be saved by grace supposeth that God hath taken the salvation of our souls into his own hand; and to be sure it is safer in God’s hand than ours.”

Whose hands do you want salvation in, anyway? I trust God. I trust that God will get this right. I trust that at the end of the ages not one person will be able to accuse God of being unfair to them.

Quite the contrary – There will be many who can only praise God for bestowing His grace when all they deserved was wrath.

From eternity past God elected a particular people in Christ who were undeserving of His grace, but He chose them anyway, unconditionally, to the praise of His glorious grace and He predestined them to be conformed to the image of his Son.

Called
God fore-loves a people. God predestines those people for conformity to Christ. And in time, God calls His people effectually. Like Lydia, He opens their heart to receive the gospel. Through the heralding of the gospel God calls those He foreknew and predestined in a way that they actually come to Him.

There is a genuine general gospel call that goes at to all men. There is a real and genuine desire for the salvation of every person who has ever lived in God in the sense that He does not delight in the death of the wicked.

We can sincerely tell all sinners that God desires they repent of their sins and believe His blessed gospel. It is our job to call all persons to repentance and tell them if they will turn from their sins and turn to Christ they will be saved.

God uses the general call of the gospel to effectually call those whom He predestined (v.29). The effectual call is where the Holy Spirit brings a dead heart to life to see the riches Christ .

The gospel call is our part. The effectual call is up to God. We preach the work of Christ – His bearing our sins on calvary as our atoning sacrifice – we preach this as a sufficient work for all persons. And we call all person to repent and place their faith in Christ. And then we trust that God is going to use that to effectually call His own to Himself.

Justified
God’s sovereign call results in a sinner choosing Christ in faith. Everyone who is in Christ chose Christ. Yes, God chose them, but in time, in response to God’s sovereign call, they chose to place their faith, which itself is God’s gift, in Christ.

And through grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone we are justified. We are counted righteous in Christ. God justifies the ungodly. We are imputed with Christ’s righteousness. Our account was credited to Christ on the cross and His account is credited to us in time when we place our faith in Him.

This is why when we preach the gospel we do call sinners to trust in, to choose, to turn to Jesus in faith. Why? Because God doesn’t drag sinners unwillingly to Himself. Rather, His effectual call results in their placing their faith in Christ and God justifying the sinner.

Glorified
This is the end journey of redemption. That state where we are finally free from all sin in resurrected bodies, glorified and reigning with Christ forever.

And it’s important here that we walk backward for a moment to understand the fullness of these promises. Those glorified are those justified. Those justified are those called. Those called are those predestined. Those predestined are those foreknown.

All those justified will be glorified. All those called will be justified. All those predestined will be called. All those foreknown will be predestined. This is a beautiful and unbreakable chain!

Allen S. Nelson IV is an M.Div student at GBTS and Pastor of Perryville Second Baptist Church in Perryville, AR. He and his wife Stephanie married in 2006 and have 5 children. He is the author of From Death to Life: How Salvation Works and Before the Throne: Reflections on God’s Holiness. Besides curating Grace Abounding he also writes regularly at ThingsAbove.Us. You can follow him on twitter: @cuatronelson.
 

Iconoclast

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May 27, 2017
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https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/golden-chain-salvation

ROMANS 8:29–30
"Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son... And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Paul brings his discussion on life in the Spirit to a glorious climax in today's passage. Our indwelling by the Spirit signifies that we are adopted as God's children and not condemned, for the Holy Spirit cannot dwell within the person He sees as unholy and whose sin has not been atoned for (Rom. 8:1-17). Additionally, possessing the Holy Spirit shows that we will enjoy our full inheritance in glorified bodies in a new heaven and earth. He prays for us that we would persevere, and He assures us that God works all things together for our good if we love Christ (vv. 18-28). But there is one more reason to be confident in the Spirit's work and our final, glorious end, and that is the work of God in salvation.
Romans 8:29-30 features the sequence known as the golden chain of salvation, the inviolable order in which our Creator saves His people. Although this chain does not specifically mention everything that God does in redeeming us (we do not find the word sanctification in this passage), it does tell us that salvation is from start to finish a work of the Lord. It is not that God initiates our salvation and we complete it by our obedience. Our service to God is important and even a preparation for heaven, but it does not merit heaven or get us there finally. God and God alone saves. He starts the work and finishes it without any help from us.
First, God foreknows His people (v. 29). This does not mean that the Lord looks down "the corridors of time" and foreknows something about us such as the decision we will make when we hear the gospel. He does, of course, know these things, but these things are in a sense incidental. When Paul says God foreknew us, he is speaking of God's knowledge of us as persons. He is speaking of His decision to enter into a relationship with us, to set His love on us (9:13). It is because He chose to love us that we will believe. Only those whom God chooses to love in this special way can be saved, and all those whom He has chosen to love in this way will be saved. Dr. R.C. Sproul comments in his book Romans, "We could reasonably translate this text [Rom. 8:29], 'Those whom he foreloved [those whom he knew in a personal, intimate, redemptive sense from all eternity] he predestined.'"
The Lord's predestination of us ensures His call and justification of us, and that in turn ensures our final glorification (v. 30). We are entirely in God's hands from eternity past. He chose to love us, to declare us righteous in Christ, and to adopt us. All those whom God justifies will be glorified. If we are in Christ now, we are in Him forever.
Coram Deo
Augustine of Hippo comments on today’s passage that "God elected believers in order that they might believe, not because they already believed." God's choice of us precedes in every sense our choice of Him. If the Lord had not chosen us, we never would have chosen to believe in Him, and because He chose His people without any view to their own merits or choices, His people will certainly believe. His predestination of us means we are His forever.
 
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Your ideas on the term foreknowledge are not consistent with the biblical usage.
This is the word from 1 Pet 1:2 "foreknowledge"

prognósis: foreknowledge
Original Word: πρόγνωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prognósis
Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)
Definition: foreknowledge
Usage: foreknowledge, previous determination.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4268 prógnōsis (from 4267 /proginṓskō, "foreknow") – properly, foreknowledge. 4268 (prógnōsis) occurs twice in the NT, both times of "God's absolute foreknowledge." See 4267 (proginōskō).

Your claim is wrong. I believe what the lexicon says it means.
 

Iconoclast

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May 27, 2017
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https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/romans-8-made-calvinist/

How Romans 8 Made Me a Calvinist
FEBRUARY 5, 2020 | JUSTIN DILLEHAY

SHARETWEETEMAIL


To this day, whenever I stand behind a pulpit and say things like “All true saints will persevere to the end and none will be lost,” I still have to pinch myself. I laugh inwardly and think, What would the 22-year-old me say if he could hear me now?
You see, I wasn’t always a Calvinist.
I was raised a classical Arminian in the Free Will Baptist tradition. As a teenager, I cut my teeth on theologians like F. Leroy Forlines and J. Matthew Pinson, along with older divines like James Arminius and John Wesley. As a 22-year-old man, I believed and taught that grace was always necessary but never irresistible, and that genuine Christians could abandon Christ and forfeit their justified status.
Beneath these beliefs lay a view of the God/man relationship that went like this: humans were created to exist in a loving relationship with God. The nature of that loving relationship requires a free—and undetermined—response on our part. To quote Forlines, I saw God working with man in an “influence-and-response relationship” rather than a “cause-and-effect relationship” (like the Calvinists thought). God could influence us, but he respected our personhood by always leaving the final decision up to us. And God did this, not because he was weak, but because this was how he meant for the relationship to work.
And in case you’re wondering, the difference between a God who influences and a God who causes can be summed up in one word: guarantee. Forlines puts it this way in his book The Quest for Truth:
I think the description of God’s relationship to man that Calvinists would give would be much like my description of influence and response. However, the result is thought to be guaranteed. . . . Any time the result is guaranteed, we are dealing with cause and effect. When the guarantee is gone, Calvinism is gone.
He’s right. I agreed with him then; I agree with him now. I’ve simply changed sides. So what happened? The short answer is I ran up against Romans 8:28–30.
Passionate Preacher, Problem Passage
Romans 8:28–30 is often referred to as “the golden chain of redemption”—so called because of its five “links” of divine foreknowing, predestining, calling, justifying, and glorifying.
As an Arminian, I saw Romans 8:28–30 as a problem passage. Verse 29 was definitely a key prooftext for election-based-on-foreseen-faith. But the rest was difficult. I knew what my preferred commentators said about it, but I’d never been fully satisfied. So I chalked it up to an anomaly. After all, no theological system explains everything perfectly.
Eventually I came to realize that Paul’s golden chain, like Calvinism, was very much about a guarantee.
Then I started listening to John Piper’s sermons on Romans, and my world was unmade. It was 2004, I was 22, and I had never heard such preaching. His meticulous exposition exposed all the weaknesses I already sensed in my interpretation of the passage, while uncovering some new ones. I can’t say I emerged from those sermons a convinced Calvinist. But my confidence was severely shaken. And eventually I came to realize that Paul’s golden chain, like Calvinism, was very much about a guarantee.
Will the Chain Be Unbroken?
Let me lay out verses 29–30 to help us visualize the argument. (Read from the top left to the bottom right, and note carefully the italicized words and matching letters.)

As an Arminian, I naturally agreed with commentator Joseph Benson: “The apostle does not affirm . . . that precisely the same number of persons are called, justified, and glorified.” After all, that would imply a guarantee. The more I studied the passage, though, the more it seemed like that was exactly what Paul was affirming.
First, consider each link individually. (For clarity, I’ve labeled the five groups with letters.) Paul begins by describing a group of people based on something God does for them (“those whom he foreknew”). He then adds something else God does for that same group of people (“he also predestined”). The word “also” in each link tells us that we’re dealing with the same people in both halves. Those he foreknew are also the ones he predestined. Hence A = B. This is true in each clause of the chain.
Paul is affirming that precisely the same number of people—indeed, the exact same group of people—are foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified.
But then notice the overlap between each clause. The second verb in each line serves as the first verb in the next. This is what binds the five clauses like links in a chain. And it’s why I eventually had to conclude that Benson and I were wrong. Paul is affirming that precisely the same number of people—indeed, the exact same group of people—are foreknown, predestined, called, justified, and glorified. Or to spell it out, A = B = C = D = E.
As an Arminian I’d been forced to argue that these five steps were simply a general sequence all true saints had to pass through, with no guarantee that those in group A would make it to group E. Indeed, I believed that some could fall out at any stage in the process. It was less like a chain and more like a bullseye, in which the circles got smaller as you moved inward.
But the more I examined the actual language, the more implausible this belief became. This inevitably pushed me to Calvinism. After all, if all the called get justified, then the call must guarantee faith, since faith precedes justification (Rom. 5:1). Further, if all the justified get glorified, then justification must be a permanent status—a verdict God never revokes.
This much I had always been uncomfortably aware of, though I hadn’t fully appreciated the difficulty before listening to Piper. But there was one more problem Piper raised that I hadn’t yet considered.
Guaranteeing Purpose of the Golden Chain
It’s important to recognize why Paul forges this chain to begin with. The answer is found in the famous verse 28:
And we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Notice that Paul isn’t simply making a factual claim here (e.g., “All things work together for their good”). He’s making a knowledge claim (e.g. “we know that all things work together for their good”).
Which raises the question: “How do we know?” What guarantee can we possibly have that, despite all appearances, all things will conspire for the good of those who love God and are called by him? That’s the question the golden chain exists to answer. That’s why verse 29 begins with the word “for”—it’s providing an argument for how we know verse 28. And here’s the argument in a nutshell: We know that all things will work together for the good of the called because if you’re called, that means you were first foreknown and predestined to be the conformed to the image of Christ, and it means that you’re now justified and will eventually be glorified.
That’s how we know: because there are no breaks in this chain.
God hasn’t left the composition of Christ’s family in the hands of fickle human beings.
Forlines was right. In the Arminian influence-and-response framework, there can be no guarantee. But that would defeat the purpose of the passage, because a guarantee is exactly what Paul is after. If people can fall out of the chain at any point, then we can never know that all things will work together for the good of the called. They might, but then again they might not—because the outcome would ultimately depend on the called themselves. Many of the called would never be justified, much less glorified.
But the good news is that this chain is unbreakable, having been forged by God himself. None of this means that our preaching or faith is unnecessary. Nor does it mean we can be assured of our salvation regardless of whether we persevere. It simply means that God hasn’t left the composition of Christ’s family in the hands of fickle human beings. God does more than just influence—he predestines. That’s why all things will work together for the good of the called, and Christ will be the firstborn among many brothers (Rom. 8:29).
God is in charge. The outcome is secure. And that, my friends, is a guarantee.
 

Iconoclast

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May 27, 2017
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This is the word from 1 Pet 1:2 "foreknowledge"

prognósis: foreknowledge
Original Word: πρόγνωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prognósis
Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)
Definition: foreknowledge
Usage: foreknowledge, previous determination.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4268 prógnōsis (from 4267 /proginṓskō, "foreknow") – properly, foreknowledge. 4268 (prógnōsis) occurs twice in the NT, both times of "God's absolute foreknowledge." See 4267 (proginōskō).

Your claim is wrong. I believe what the lexicon says it means.

Predestinate


1: προορίζω

(Strong's #4309 — Verb — proorizo — pro-or-id'-zo )

see DETERMINE.

Note: This verb is to be distinguished from proginosko, "to foreknow;" the latter has special reference to the persons foreknown by God; proorizo has special reference to that to which the subjects of His foreknowledge are "predestinated." See FOREKNOW , A and B.
Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; (NASB: Lockman)

Greek: hoti ous proegno, (3SAAI) kai proorisen (3SAAI) summorphous tes eikonos tou huiou autou, eis to einai (PAN) auton prototokon en pollois adelphois
Amplified: For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
NLT: For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn, with many brothers and sisters. (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: God, in his foreknowledge, chose them to bear the family likeness of his Son, that he might be the eldest of a family of many brothers. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: Because, those whom He foreordained He also marked out beforehand as those who were to be conformed to the derived image of His Son, with the result that He is firstborn among many brethren.
Young's Literal: For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;
FOR WHOM HE FOREKNEW: hoti ous proegno (3SAAI):

GOD KNEW YOU
BEFORE YOU WERE BORN


For (hoti) introduces the argument to which the preceding words refer. See importance of querying terms of explanation.
 

Iconoclast

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As Denny explains "These verses (Ro 8:29ff) give the proof that God in all tings co-operates for good with the called. They show how His gracious purpose, beginning with foreknowledge and foreordination perfects all that concerns them on to the final glory. (Romans 8 Commentary - Expositor's Greek Testament)

Foreknew (4267) (proginosko from pró = before + ginosko = know) know about something prior to some temporal reference point. For example, to know about an event before it happens, to know beforehand, or to have foreknowledge. Proginosko describes God’s eternal counsel and includes all that He has considered and purposed to do prior to human history. In the language of Scripture, something foreknown is not simply that which God was aware of prior to a certain point, but also includes the idea of that which God gave prior consent to or which received His favorable or special recognition. Hence, proginosko is reserved for those matters which God favorably, deliberately and freely chose and ordained.

Proginosko - 5x in 5v - Acts 26:5; Rom 8:29; 11:2; 1 Pet 1:20; 2 Pet 3:17. NAS - foreknew(2), foreknown(1), knowing… beforehand(1), known(1).​
R
God's foreknowledge is much more than just having prescience of what will happen in the future, but its full meaning is beyond our finite comprehension. [Acts 2:23] speaks of Christ as being delivered to be crucified "by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God."" His works surely were not planned merely by His foreknowledge of what they would be for that would place the power in the hands of man -- some say because it seems "logical" from our perspective that God looked into the future, saw what men would do and then He predestined them to salvation. That's not what Scripture says. That would put the initiative and impetus for salvation in the hands of depraved God hating men. We simply have to acknowledge that we don't have to explain this -- what we do have to do is rest in whatever He says for His ways are higher than our ways. By the way no where in Scripture does it say God foreknew or predestined anyone to hell.

God foreknew that Israel would be His people (Ro 11:2-note), yet He later chose them by His own will. It clearly suggests planning ahead of time, not just knowing ahead of time. Nothing takes God by surprise; His decisions are not determined by our decisions. Yet in every case where God's planning and predestinating are involved (Acts 2:23), it is also true that those who acted according to His foreknowledge carried out those acts of their own volition.

preceptaustin pt2
 

Iconoclast

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pt3
PREDESTINED TO
BE LIKE JESUS

When Paul assures the Roman saints that “God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose” (Ro 8:28-note), he then follows in this verse with God’s work of predestination as a reason why we can be assured of this truth. In short, predestination, far from being given to cause division, is given that it might bring comfort and assurance. The next verse looks at predestination from a futuristic perspective. That is to say, that if one looks to the future when Christ returns, he sees Paul's clear affirmation that God has determined to give believers in Christ perfect, glorified bodies. From eternity to eternity God has acted with the good of his people in mind. But if God has always acted for our good and will in the future act for our good, Paul reasons, then will he not also in our present circumstances work every circumstance together for our good as well? In this way predestination is seen as a comfort for believers in the everyday events of life.

Predestined (4309) (proorizo from pró = before + horízo = to determine, as by a boundary or limit in turn from horos = boundary, limit <> Source of our English word "horizon" = God's boundary between heaven and earth) literally means to mark out beforehand or set the the limits or boundaries in advance of any place or thing. When used of persons, proorizo means to put limitations upon that person thus conveys the idea of to determine his destiny. Though proorizo meant simply to plan in advance, in the New Testament it attracted a special meaning. Here the idea is a divine decree of God, whereby He determined in advance that something should happen.

Here in Romans 8:29 Paul is saying that God has predetermined the destiny or the future of each believer, a glorious future in which he or she will be like Christ, conformed to the image of His Son! And so we see that predestination need not be a frightful word for the believer but in fact a wonderful doctrine which should bring comfort , encouragement and thankfulness to our heart. God is in control. He has a plan for your life and mine! Note carefully that it was not the fact of our faith as foreknown by God that moved Him to "foreordain" us. The blessings and mercies recounted in this section are the result of His eternal purpose in Christ.

Proorizo reminds us that God is the supreme historian who wrote all history before it ever began and it is therefore not surprising that proorizo is used only of God in the NT.

Note that the Scripture never uses predestination to mean that God has predestined certain people to eternal condemnation. A person is condemned because he or she refuses to trust Christ. Stated another way the truth of predestination applies only to saved people. Peter explains the heart of the Father…

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (see note 2 Peter 3:9)​
Proorizo is used 6 times in the NAS (Acts 4:28; Rom. 8:29; Rom. 8:30; 1 Co. 2:7; Eph. 1:5; Eph. 1:11) each use translated as predestined. In the KJV, proorizo is translated determine before, 1; ordain, 1; predestinate, 4. These 6 occurrences in the NT, all refer to the predestination of events and peoples by God before all time or before their concrete historical time. In each case proorizo speaks of God's plan for man or events and the inescapable implication is that God's plan will be fulfilled.

Here are the 4 other uses of proorizo (not counting the uses in Ro 8:29-30)…

Acts 4:27-28+ "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, (4:28) to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur."​
Comment: The Jews and Gentiles did what and only what God had planned beforehand. God did not force Jesus’ adversaries to engage in acts of violence against their will, for the evidence shows that they took full responsibility. Instead, God allowed them to conspire against Him that He might accomplish salvation for his people. Having done their worst, they merely succeeded in fulfilling God’s eternal plan. These verses contain another striking example of the conjoining of human responsibility and God's sovereignty in the same context, with no hint of this being a problem.​
In a parallel passage (although not using proorizo) Luke records that Jesus…

Acts 2:22-23+ "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--the Man delivered up by the predetermined (Greek = horizo = marked out) plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.​
Comment: Again observe the juxtaposition of divine predestination and human responsibility. That these two truths exist in harmony that is beyond human comprehension is clearly taught in Scripture and must be received on faith in the infinitely wise, omniscient Creator God. He is the Potter and we are but clay!​
1Cor 2:7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom, which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 2:8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory​
Comment: The meaning is that God’s wisdom in relation to the Gospel of His grace was predetermined by Him before any periods of time began. It was not an afterthought, not a plan contingent upon changed conditions or circumstances. Before time began, our heavenly Father determined to give us His saving wisdom that would lead ultimately to our eternal glorification.​
Ephesians 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, (see note)​
Ephesians 1:11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, (see note)​
Comment: Morris writing on predestination in Ephesians 1 says that "Its over-all purpose is to be "to the praise of his glory" (Ep 1:6, 12, 14, 3:21-notes Ep 1:6, 12, 14; 3:21)… Since our minds are finite, we are unable to comprehend the infinite character of the plan and purpose of God, which is exactly the situation with regard to the clearly Biblical truth of predestination. In no way does this preclude the ability of God to plan also the paradoxical truth of human freedom and responsibility, which also are clearly Biblical (remember God's ability is infinite). We cannot fully comprehend with our minds, but can believe and rejoice with our hearts that God has known and chosen us believers for Himself even before the world began. (Morris, Henry: Defenders Study Bible. World Publishing)​
 

Iconoclast

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pt4;
"Why is the doctrine of election present in the Scripture?"​
Four distinct answers emerge from this passage:​
(1) As long as the doctrine of election is in the Bible, salvation must be the gift of God alone. Predestination framed in God's foreknowledge assures us that salvation is from start to finish the work of God.​
(2) The doctrine of God's elective purpose guarantees the perpetuity of salvation. Unthinkable is the idea that one of God's elect could forfeit his salvation. Those whom He has justified He will glorify. So certain is that sequence that "glorified" is an aorist tense in Greek, meaning that glorification is already a settled issue in the mind of God (Ro 8:30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39). How could God lose one of His elect?​
(3) The doctrine of election assures a peculiar providence which attends the way of every believer. If God's heart is set on us in His elective purpose, we may be sure of His concern and providential intervention in our behalf (Ro 8:28).​
(4) Finally, that same personal providence bound up in election extends throughout the entire course of history. There is no runaway world. God's hand is systematically guiding the age to its intended consummation (Ro 8:21, 22). (MacDonald, W & Farstad, A. Believer's Bible Commentary: Thomas Nelson)​
Wuest commenting on proorizo writes that " The genius of the word is that of placing limitations upon someone or something beforehand, these limitations bringing that person or thing within the sphere of a certain future or destiny. These meanings are carried over into the New Testament usage of the word. Thus, the “chosen-out” ones, have had limitations put around them which bring them within the sphere of becoming God’s children by adoption (Eph 1:5-note), and of being conformed to the image of the Lord Jesus (Ro 8:29).

Someone explained predestination with this simple picture. When we came to Christ, it was like walking through a gate. On the outside were inscribed these words: "Whosoever will, may come." Once we passed through the gate into the Saviour's arms, we could look back and see these words inscribed on the inside: "Chosen from the foundation of the world." We can praise Him for His sovereign and saving grace.

Jesus Himself taught that…

He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God. (John 3:18-21).​
 
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GOD KNEW YOU
BEFORE YOU WERE BORN


For (hoti) introduces the argument to which the preceding words refer. See importance of querying terms of explanation.
I assume you are shouting at me. Why are you shouting at me? I shared what a Greek lexicon said about "foreknowledge". You either accept it or not.

Of course God knows everyone before they were born. In fact, God knew every human being "before the foundation of the earth".

What does that prove? That God chooses who will believe? No, it doesn't.

Please show me the verse that says God chooses who will believe. That is merely a construct, without any Scriptural support.
 

Iconoclast

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I assume you are shouting at me. Why are you shouting at me? I shared what a Greek lexicon said about "foreknowledge". You either accept it or not.

Of course God knows everyone before they were born. In fact, God knew every human being "before the foundation of the earth".

What does that prove? That God chooses who will believe? No, it doesn't.

Please show me the verse that says God chooses who will believe. That is merely a construct, without any Scriptural support.
Foreknowledge and omniscience are not the same thing.
You are conflating two ideas and not following the biblical usage....
The root word to 'KNOW" IS AN INTIMATE TERM IN SCRIPTURE
Adam "knew Eve and she conceived, Adam knew eve again and she conceived////
Did he forget who she was?
Joseph knew not mary until after the birth of Jesus, do you understand it?