Truth or Traditions of men

Jesus had desended to hell to set the captives free. This is the fulfillment of prophecy.
Now when he had resurrected and mary went to embrace him and he forbid her it was because he had not yet presented himself as high priest as first fruits to the father. Firstfruit offerings could not be touched be human hands.
Jesus ascended to the father for he was that offering. Then afterwards he came back and went to thomas and the rest of the believes and as we know could be touched.
Which brings us to the new body which still has the scares of love. He also ate he also walked through walls and appeared and vanished.
It is not considered a spiritual body for that goes against scripture . For scripture tells us he was raised in the flesh.
Paul tells us that we do not know what we will be but we will be like him....so it seems he had no answer. But jesus was not a spirit.
Now the most intresting thing of all and is missed by many (as if all of this is not intresting and exciting lol)
That in the book of acts we see that JESUS was taken up he just did not rise or ascend but taken up which imo shows a picture of the rapture.

I respect your opinion on this, and not to start and argument but simply for the sake of conversation...

I have found no evidence of two ascensions. Basing all that on his words to Mary seems to be a mistake because of English translation from original Greek. The Greek says "don't keep on touching me, or don't keep on clinging to me." Check out Matthew. Two Marys both embraced his feet. This changes everything and ruins the secret ascension theory.

The writer of Hebrews talks about how Jesus fulfilled all of the types of the temple but this was done on the cross. His blood did not need to be carried up to heaven and poured on an altar. It was done spiritually when He shed it on the cross. At that moment it was applied. Jesus did not carry a vial in his pocket and take a trip to heaven and pour it out and come back after he talked to Mary.

Jesus did not open up his veins again in heaven and bleed some more.

And not everyone thinks he descended into hell. But that is another thread.

Firstfruit has nothing to do with blood.
Does not scriptre tell us that jesus is first fruits? This has to do with the harvest.
Jesus is the high priest and acts accordingly so. Jesus being high priest offered himself as a offering. But he still holds the office of the high priest and full fills this office. Is there not one mediator between man and God the Lord Christ Jesus.
That is the office of the high priest.
The story goes do not touch for i have not gone to the father yet. But soon after thomas is permitted to examine him. Why?

pre·vent
/prēˈvent/
verb

• 1.keep (something) from happening or arising:"action must be taken to prevent further accidents"
• 2.(of God) go before (someone) with spiritual guidance and help.archaic

Powered by Oxford Dictionaries
New International Version
According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

New Living Translation
We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died.

English Standard Version
For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Berean Study Bible
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.

New American Standard Bible
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

King James Bible
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord's coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep.

International Standard Version
For we declare to you what the Lord has told us to say: We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have died.

NET Bible
For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep.
Take which ever you want they all say that those of us that are left to grieve a loved one that has passed away will not go to be with the Lord before they do.

Let's cut to the chase there is no rapture no matter how you cut it. That is a lie straight from the depths of hell that came from a young woman in the early 1800's that was ill and she herself said the dream seamed evil.

Because the English translation causes you to think something different than what the Greek readers think when they hear it.

It is "Do not keep on clinging to me"

That is why the other English Translations have used words closer to the original Greek meaning.


New International Version
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

New Living Translation
“Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

English Standard Version
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Berean Study Bible
“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

New King James Version
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”

New American Standard Bible
Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”

NASB 1995
Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”

NASB 1977
Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”

Amplified Bible
Jesus said to her, “Do not hold Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

Christian Standard Bible
“Don’t cling to me,” Jesus told her, “since I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
“Don’t cling to Me,” Jesus told her, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brothers and tell them that I am ascending to My Father and your Father—to My God and your God.”


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Yeshua said to her. “Don't cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to join my Father, and go join my brothers and say to them that I ascend to join my Father and your Father, my God, and your God.”

Contemporary English Version
Jesus told her, "Don't hold on to me! I have not yet gone to the Father. But tell my disciples I am going to the one who is my Father and my God, as well as your Father and your God."


Good News Translation
"Do not hold on to me," Jesus told her, "because I have not yet gone back up to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them that I am returning to him who is my Father and their Father, my God and their God."

International Standard Version
Jesus told her, "Don't hold on to me, because I haven't yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, 'I'm ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"


New American Bible
Jesus said to her, “Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”

NET Bible
Jesus replied, "Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father. Go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

New Revised Standard Version
Jesus said to her, “Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”


Weymouth New Testament
"Do not cling to me," said Jesus, "for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But take this message to my brethren: 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

World English Bible
Jesus said to her, "Don't hold me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Jesus was telling her to stop holding on to him as if she was afraid to let go and lose Him again. He was saying that when He goes to the Father He would send the Holy Spirit and He and the Father would take up their abode in Mary and that would be a better and closer relationship than what she was trying to hang on to with Jesus.

We read Him teaching throughout the book of John how he needed to go to the Father to send the Holy Spirit for this reason.

Now He is reminding Mary of what He had been saying. By this time in the book of John anyone who had read through the whole book knows exactly what "I must ascend to the Father" means. The Promise of the Holy Spirit.

Also since we see two Marys in Matthew actually embracing his feet and making contact and clinging to his feet we know that they did touch him after his resurrection before the meeting in Galilee. One left quit clinging to do what he said to go tell his disciples in Galilee while the other kept clinging to him. @Magenta already posted both passages from Matt and John that show this.

The idea that Jesus did not let anyone touch him before Thomas is wrong. Matt 28
8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word. 9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. 10Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

They did touch him. But in John what we see is that while one of them quit holding on to him and started to go obey what he said to do, (tell the disciples to meet him in Galilee) Jesus had to speak to the other Mary to tell her to quit clinging to him and remind her that He had to go to the Father and send the promise of the Holy Spirit which would then live in her all the time and she would never be separated from Jesus again, as He had promised to come and He and the Father would make their abode within her but he must first ascend to the Father and then He would send the Holy Spirit, which he did on the day of Pentecost. One ascension occurred later when they saw him rise.

The whole two ascension idea is based on misunderstanding the English translation "Do not touch me"

Yes. They are both true. John focuses on one of the Marys.

Matthew gives more information and lets us know that there were two.

Matthew shows that they both touched him and embraced his feet.

John shows that Jesus had to talk to one of them to get her to stop and do what he told them both to do.

Go tell his disciples to meet him in Galilee.

Because of these instructions "go tell his disciples to meet him in Galilee" included in both accounts we can be sure we are talking about the same time and event and we can be sure that his feet were indeed embraced and He was touched, so this whole secret ascension before Thomas is based on a misunderstanding of "do not touch me" English translation in John.

Why would Jesus say "I must ascend to the Father" to Mary? What would that mean to Mary? Mary had heard all of His teachings in the book of John about how He needed to leave them, but that He would send the Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father. I believe she understood what Jesus meant by that. Stop Clinging to me because I must ascend to the Father and send the Holy Spirit. That happened later. There was no ascension between this meeting and Thomas.

If people want to think there was, that is their choice, but all the elaborate explanations they come up with about what Jesus did in this secret ascension that they imagined took place is pure fanciful imaginations and not a shred of it is mentioned in the bible.

When people use Hebrews 9 to say that Jesus did all that during this imagined 1st ascension they are making it up. Hebrews does not say that. Hebrews says that Jesus sacrifice on the cross did all that. When Jesus ascended all of the offerings and blood on the Mercy seat, was accomplished fact. Jesus did not need to ascend to the Father after His resurrection before anyone could touch him.

And why would anyone think so? Do they think they could make the resurrected Son of God unclean? What kind of confused thinking is that?

All this nonsense is based on a mistranslation of "Do not touch me" instead of "Stop clinging to me"

It is one of those things that keeps getting passed around. But I think more and more are learning that it is a bad interpretation that needs to be corrected.

It pollutes the doctrine of the ascension to talk about two of them.

No its based on what comes next according to the feast and offerings of the Lord.
He must first ascend and so he does. In acts he was taken up. Difference sure is.
As the church and christianty is hidden in the old testament in the new judisim is hidden.
Mary knew what jesus was talking ablut the same as the others....i must first ascend speaking as the hjgh lreist about firstfruits and how it is to be presented.
Jesus fulfilled all the laws of the prophets all the law of Leviticus remember not one yot or tittle will erased till all is fulfilled.
In fact revelation is a continuous of what must be fulfilled.

Well this is a teachable moment for you.

If you did not know that in 1611 prevent meant "go before" Then there is a pretty good chance that you are not ready to teach what this passage means. In the 1600s prevent was used in this text to convey the meaning "go before" it is now archaic and we don't use prevent to mean that. Today we use it to mean "keep something from happening"

You are not allowed to say that the KJV use of the word prevent in this text can mean a modern definition of that word just because you look it up in a dictionary and see how the word is used today. You have to know what the KJV translators thought that word meant at their time in 1600s and That meaning is what the KJV translators intended.

Of course the best thing is to look at the Greek word:
φθάσωμεν
(phthasōmen)5348: to come before (another), anticipate, arrive


So be humble and learn more. Maybe ask questions and have discussions about possible interpretations. Everyone who does any kind of serious study of this verse learns about the KJV archaic use of prevent. ONLY A BEGINNER WOULD NOT KNOW THIS.

There is a day when those believers who are alive and living for Jesus will be transfigured and shine like the sun and be glorified in the eyes of all and rise and meet the Lord in the air.

If you made a mistake about the KJV use of the archaic prevent, then maybe you are making many other mistakes and are not ready to teach an anti-rapture doctrine. Think about it.

Exactly. And I think that is what He is reminding Mary of. His previous teachings. He has yet to ascend to the Father when He did, He would send the Holy Spirit. Meanwhile Mary had to understand that she could not hold on to this physical relationship with Jesus. But something better for her was coming. That is what I think he is trying to tell her but John does not give us any more than this brief statement. I could be wrong, but I think I am right.

They touched him in Matthew 28. Both Marys clung to his feet. How do you explain that? We know it was the same event because he said Go tell his disciples to meet him in Galilee in both events. Math 28 and in John 20.

So if He was touched then there is no sense in theorizing why He could not be touched.

Oh i see...hhmmm no physical relationship.
So in order for Pentecost to come jesus skips 3 of the offerings and we arrive at pentecost.
So jesus ascended into heaven rather than was taken as it says in acts.
And your right because you think so. Intresting.

@pottersclay 1) I asked you how you would explain them touching Jesus in Matt 28? Since we know it is the same event because both Matt 28 and John 20 included the instructions from Jesus to go and tell his disciples to meet him in Galilee.

2) No one has ever considered "the ascension of Jesus Christ" and his being taken up before them as contradictory wording. This is not a thing in theology.

3) I am not trying to argue or make anyone look bad. I am just discussing this theory with you because I find it to be an interesting discussion and an opportunity to examine scriptures to identify what was intended. So I remain humble and am interested in other peoples reasons for their interpretations.

4) I have not understood your theory about offerings yet. Maybe you could present them using the scriptures that you think are teaching this view that most readers should be able to understand. Surely if it is what the Bible wanted us to understand you would be able to use the Bible to show us where it says Jesus did all this between Mary and Thomas.

5) It hardly seems necessary to attempt to explain a trip to the Father between Mary and Thomas based on an interpretation that Mary was not allowed to touch him but Thomas was, IF Mary did indeed touch Him as Matt 28 plainly tells us that she did and John 20 should be understood as "stop clinging to me" which she literally was doing and touching him was going on. The theory that no one could touch him before he went to the Father before Thomas would no longer be tenable if indeed they had touched Him would it?

I thank you are making my point. there is no way we can stop those who die before us from going; we cannot stop their flesh body from going into the ground or to ashes or what every way the body may go. We also cannot stop the spirit from returning to God who gave it.

OK. I see that is your point. But it is not helpful in interpreting this text.

Paul said that we who are alive (whoever that may be when it happens) will not be transfigured before the dead in Christ rise transfigured. Those that are alive will not go up first.

First the dead in Christ will be raised in glorified bodies and rise, and then after they rise we will be instantly transfigured without seeing death and rise to meet them in the Air.

No one is talking about stopping or not stopping anyone in this text.

It was not Paul's point and it was not the KJV translators point when they used the word prevent which at that time meant "go before".

It is your point but not very helpful in interpreting this text.

I
am not sure just what you are trying to say. Mary was not able to touch Jesus because He had not yet returned to the Father But Iam not sure about the first fruits and all that, I do no there is no rapture. Jesus returns at the 7th trump. He does not sneak in in the middle of
the night and take away anybody.



T

Author, Date, and Recipients
Shortly after writing 1 Thessalonians, the apostle Paul received a report (2 Thess. 3:11) that the Thessalonian church had accepted the strange claim that “the day of the Lord has come” (2:1–2). Paul sent them a second letter in A.D. 49–51. He was probably in Corinth at the time.
Theme
The letter’s main theme is Jesus’ second coming. Jesus’ return will be preceded by an “apostasy” (or rebellion) and by the appearance of the “man of lawlessness,” the Antichrist (2:3). When Jesus comes, he will defeat this rebellious world ruler (2:8). He will bring justice to oppressed Christians and wrath to unbelievers (1:5–10; 2:9–15).
Purpose, Occasion, and Background
Paul wrote 2 Thessalonians (1) to reassure those terrified that the day of the Lord had already come (2:1–3:5); (2) to strengthen the Thessalonians in the face of continuing persecution (1:3–12); and (3) to deal with the problem of some of the church members refusing to earn their own living (3:6–15).
Paul assumes that the Thessalonian church knew that the second coming of Jesus Christ would occur at the same time as the coming of the “day of the Lord.” Yet the Thessalonians may simply have fallen victim to a belief that the day of the Lord had already come. The persecution they were undergoing may have fueled their confusion about the end times.
Some of the Thessalonians may have stopped working to await and proclaim the second coming. More likely, lazy Christians may have been exploiting the generosity of wealthier Christians in order to avoid work.
In contrast to the warm emotional tone of 1 Thessalonians, 2 Thessalonians includes some blunt commands as Paul addresses bad behavior and bad thinking. Further, this letter is noteworthy for Paul’s tough-mindedness in predicting judgment on the ungodly and in rebuking church members who behave and think incorrectly. Still, there is a regular swing back and forth between reproof and warm encouragement.
2nd Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Part 2 of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2
My whole point with this has been to point out that Paul Has Never, Will never, say that there is a rapture. Here in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2 Paul is restating the teachings of Jesus in Mark 13, Matthew 24, that before Jesus can return these things must happen first. The antichrist must return to Mt. Moriah where Solomon built the temple. He will set himself up in the temple of God proclaiming to be God.
You are right I am not the sharpest knife around but I love the Lord, I want to please the Lord and I want to study His word.

The last 2 posts were to a reply to Amanuensis not to anyone else. Just proof I am not that sharp knife