The powers that be...

That is a great point Live4Him3, but we should also remember our Lords' reply to Pilate,

Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: Jn.19:11

Our King did't rebel against a corrupt government.

when we document , share our opinions , ones documentation is not more valid then the others.

I do not believe God is watching from heaven jumping for joy for things like King Herod ,hitler , Genghis Khan the Abomb we dropped .Neither did He stop it .. Remember God stopped the sun. God has His reasons which we dont understand.

This is certainly true, and God had foretold of Pilate's "power" at least as far back as the second psalm.

There, we read:

Psalm 2

[1] Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
[2] The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
[3] Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
[4] He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
[5] Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
[6] Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

In this prophetic Messianic psalm of David, God foretold of the time when "the heathen" (the Roman soldiers), "the people" (certain Jews of Jesus' day), "the kings of the earth" (King Herod), "and the rulers" (Pontius Pilate) would conspire together "against the LORD (God the Father)", "and against his anointed" (Jesus Christ) by crucifying Jesus.

This is by no means my own private interpretation, but simply the plain teaching of scripture.

In relation to the same, we read:

Acts chapter 4

[23] And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
[24] And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
[25] Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
[26] The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
[27] For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
[28] For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Although "the heathen" (Psalm 2:1, Acts 4:25) or "the Gentiles" (Acts 4:27) or not specifically identified here, Jesus did specifically identify them elsewhere when he said:

Matthew chapter 20

[18] Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death,
[19] And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Of course, "the Gentiles" who mocked, scourged, and crucified Jesus were the Roman soldiers.

Are you suggesting that Jesus submitted to corruption?

If so, then wouldn't that, in turn, make him corrupt?

Look, the Bible is FULL of examples of people who were blessed by God WHEN THEY REBELLED AGAINST EVIL EDICTS FROM RULERS.

Was Daniel blessed or cursed by God when he disobeyed the King's edict that no one could pray to any God?

Were Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego blessed or cursed by God when they refused to bow to the image that King Nebuchadnezzar had set up?

Shall I go on?

Again, Romans 13 clearly qualifies exactly what types of rulers were supposed to submit to.

The validity is determined by whether or not it agrees with what the scriptures actually say.

Here it is, again:

Romans chapter 13

[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
[2] Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
[3] For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
[4] For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
[5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
[6] For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Would you have me/us to believe that Pharaoh was not a terror to good works, but to the evil, that he praised those who did that which was good, and that he was God's minister who attended continually upon this very thing?

If you answer "yes" to this question, then you're out of your mind.

For crying out loud, PHARAOH MURDERED NEWBORN INFANTS.

What "evil" had they done?

In relation to Pharaoh, who you initially mentioned, God told us exactly why he raised him up, so what's not to understand?

We read:

"And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth." (Exodus 9:16)

So if i bold the parts that stand out to me, mine is then valid?

[1] Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

We are not going to agree and that is ok.
Back to the post when you mentioned Moses parents ....Most likely i will not have the best words to describe what is in my head but here goes... Did Corrie Ten Boom do the right thing Yes she did . Did the 'fathers' of the USA do the right thing yes . Sounds contradictory to my posts .. We go along daily doing this and that God steps down and says "hold it" these guys are out of line and i want you Miss Ten Boom to do this..... Ok Moses it is time to make the change . Mr. Washington.. lets go... Abe Lincoln we hate war but it is time .. Gods laws the Ten or His laws of nature , like gravity. over rule mans laws .. over rule the Constitution of the USA. God spoke the world in to being He could well speak al the wars , famine etc. to end. Because what He does does not seem just to me does in no way make HIs doings unjust . He is God and can only be Godly. The picture of what i am trying to say is clear in the whole story of the birth, life ,death, resurrection of Christ.

No, he's definitely not jumping for joy.

I've already shown how Psalm 2 is a prophetic Messianic psalm which foretold of the time when the Roman soldiers, certain Jews of Jesus' day, King Herod, and Pontius Pilate would conspire together to crucify Jesus Christ.

Now, let's look at God's response to the same.

Again, we read:

Psalm 2

[1] Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
[2] The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
[3] Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
[4] He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
[5] Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
[6] Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

God laughs at them, derides them, speaks unto them in his wrath, and vexes them in his sore displeasure.

What, exactly, does he speak?

He tells them that Christ will still be his appointed king upon his holy hill of Zion in that God would raise Christ who they crucified from the dead.

I'm tempted to finish out this psalm to make some additional points, but I'll stop here for now.

No. I'm saying he overcame it.

It makes him the greatest Witness to the sins of mankind.

Those men like their Savior faced death head on.

I think we'll all know when our hour has come.

Who said anything about God being unjust?

Certainly not me.

I have a very good understanding of why God allows the things which he allows because he's told us exactly why he does the same in his word.

Anyhow, in relation to your bold-faced question/comment, I'll simply say this:

A text, out of context, is a pretext.

In other words, you can cherry-pick a verse of scripture, pull it entirely out of its actual context, and then pretty much make it say whatever you want it to say. Of course, I'm not advocating the same, but that's precisely what you've done here. Again, read your bold-faced verse IN CONTEXT, and you will see the QUALIFIERS which are attached to it.

I'm not trying to be rude or disrespectful, but this isn't rocket science.

Here's a simple (I hope) question for all of you:

When the governing powers impose the mark of the beast upon mankind, will you take it in alleged obedience to God's word about submitting to the powers that be?

I mean, come on.

Stop the nonsense.

Revelation chapter 14

[9] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[10] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
[12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The patience of the saints, or those who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus, causes them to REBEL AGAINST such evil authority.

Or you can allegedly submit to God's decree and drink the wine of his wrath.

Your choice.

Me?

I'll lose my head, literally, before ever submitting myself to the same.

Seriously, give this absolute nonsense a rest.

It is a truth that has tested the hearts of God's people down the ages ... But Jesus also ministered under a monsterous regime. And the apostles made it clear that in matters of conscience we must obey God rather than men.

I'll add this to hopefully put this nonsensical discussion (not that there's really anything to discuss) to rest for good.

II Corinthians chapter 11

[32] In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
[33] And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

If the absolutely nonsensical interpretation that some of you are seeking to attach to what Paul said in Romans chapter 13 is true, then Paul is an absolute hypocrite because he fled from the governor who was acting under the king in Damascus as opposed to submitting to him.

Seriously, give it a rest...or tear all of Paul's epistles out of your Bibles because he's a double-talking hypocrite.

Acts chapter 12

[1] Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church.
[2] And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
[3] And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)
[4] And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
[5] Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.
[6] And when Herod would have brought him forth, the same night Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains: and the keepers before the door kept the prison.
[7] And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.
[8] And the angel said unto him, Gird thyself, and bind on thy sandals. And so he did. And he saith unto him, Cast thy garment about thee, and follow me.
[9] And he went out, and followed him; and wist not that it was true which was done by the angel; but thought he saw a vision.
[10] When they were past the first and the second ward, they came unto the iron gate that leadeth unto the city; which opened to them of his own accord: and they went out, and passed on through one street; and forthwith the angel departed from him.
[11] And when Peter was come to himself, he said, Now I know of a surety, that the Lord hath sent his angel, and hath delivered me out of the hand of Herod, and from all the expectation of the people of the Jews.

Oh no.

Things have really taken a turn for the worse now, haven't they?

Yep.

According to some here, God wants us to submit to all governing authorities because they're all allegedly ordained of him.

Well, if such is true (of course, it isn't), then God himself is a giant hypocrite because he sent his angel and delivered Peter out of the hand of King Herod.

And what about those bad, bad Christians who were praying for just that?

Yeah.

I guess that we'll all just have to throw our Bibles out and find something else to do.

Anybody want to go bowling?

I'm sorry (to an extent) for having to resort to sarcasm, but, seriously, just give this absolute nonsense a rest.

Here is what this same Peter had to say about this topic:

I Peter chapter 2

[13] Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
[14] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
[15] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
[16] As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

As did Paul in Romans chapter 13, so did Peter QUALIFY exactly what type of ordinances or rulers we're supposed to submit to.

It is those which/who punish evildoers and praise those who do well.

Got it?

Did Jesus sin?

According to some of you, he must have.

We read:

Luke chapter 13

[31] The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
[32] And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Here, certain of the Pharisees apparently came to Jesus with a message from King Herod to depart or be killed.

Jesus, in turn, gave them this response FOR KING HEROD:

"Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected."

Didn't Jesus rebel against the decree of King Herod?

Did Jesus disobey God's alleged command to submit to all governing powers in doing so?

Proverbs 16:4
4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

God made the wicked for days with evil or bad things. This is difficult to understand since it makes one wonder about God’s intentions, but the Bible seems pretty clear that God created the authorities, governments, and wicked people for His own purposes.

I don't see this subject as being about submission to evil government. Our Lord never agreed with evil edicts. He spoke against them. To me, the subject is about submission to God no metter how evil an authority he allows to rule is.

I don't see "the wine of Gods' wrath" as persecution of believers by evil entities, for the same reason the wrath of God was not poured out on his Son. People seem to enjoy confusing the weath of man for the wrath of God.

God said people who wander from him would walk in darkness. From decrees like this, we can say the wicked are made by God this way.

That is what i was so poorly trying to say post #27

I don’t think that’s necessarily what it means that God created the wicked for the day of evil. There have been many rulers and governments that have existed and currently exist today that were never in league with the God of the Bible and therefore couldn’t have wandered from Him.

I think this is saying that God uses wicked people, or rather allows them, to do things He wouldn’t want to do. Kinda like how God apparently uses the devil to do things according to Job.

That’s the only way I know to see this. Either God created all governments and authorities, all who are sinners, or he didn’t.