Paul and 1 Corinth 12:3

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Shilohsfoal

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Dec 27, 2018
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#1
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the spirit of God says Jesus be cursed, and no one can say"Jesus is Lord "exept by the holy spirit.


Sometimes a wonder why Paul says some of the things he does. There have probably been hundreds of millions of people in the last 2000 years who have said" Jesus is Lord"who have not recieved the holy ghost.
Jesus even says in the gospel many people will come to him calling him Lord and he will say to them that he never knew them.

So why in the world would Paul make claims so that people such as Jim Jones can minipulate people using Paul's words as proof they have recieved the holy ghost?
 
S

Shilohsfoal

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Is Paul's statement true that no man can say "Jesus is Lord" without the holy ghost?

Was Jim Jones a man of God?
 
W

WayneNSO

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I do not think the Apostle Paul is meaning that no one has the ability to say that Jesus is Lord unless aided by the Holy Spirit, since all people can say this, conmen and true believers alike, but that no one can say this in a heartfelt way without the Holy Spirit being at work in them.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is,
the word of faith we are proclaiming: that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”
and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with
your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.
Romans 10:8-10


If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9:)
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

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Sep 4, 2013
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(excerpt)

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand
Or "I make known unto you"; what I am about to say are certain truths, and to be depended on,

that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed;
or "anathema", as did the unconverted Gentiles, who knew nothing of Jesus but by report; which report they had from the Jews, his enemies; and by that report he appeared to them to be a very wicked and detestable person, who was put to death by the means of his own countrymen, was hanged upon a tree, and so to be counted and called accursed: the apostle seems to have reference to the sense these Corinthians had of Jesus, and what they called him before their conversion; whence it appeared that they spoke not by, nor were they possessed of the Spirit of God then, and therefore their having of him now was an instance of pure grace; or else respect is had to the Jews, who not only, whilst Jesus was living, blasphemed him, but continued to call him accursed after his death

(here)

1 Corinthians 12 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of …
 
Evmur

Evmur

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#6
... The Holy Spirit does not allow a demonic spirit to proclaim the Lordship of Christ.
 
ResidentAlien

ResidentAlien

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Shilohsfoal said:
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the spirit of God says Jesus be cursed, and no one can say"Jesus is Lord "exept by the holy spirit.
Click to expand...
The only way this makes sense is if a person says "Jesus is Lord" and means it. Anyone can say it but only by the Spirit can they say it and truly mean it.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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#8
Shilohsfoal said:
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the spirit of God says Jesus be cursed, and no one can say"Jesus is Lord "exept by the holy spirit.


Sometimes a wonder why Paul says some of the things he does. There have probably been hundreds of millions of people in the last 2000 years who have said" Jesus is Lord"who have not recieved the holy ghost.
Jesus even says in the gospel many people will come to him calling him Lord and he will say to them that he never knew them.

So why in the world would Paul make claims so that people such as Jim Jones can minipulate people using Paul's words as proof they have recieved the holy ghost?
Click to expand...
He meant by the way they live, that their lives speak for them,

Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 2Cor.3:2
 
E

Edify

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Jan 27, 2021
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#9
Those preaching "another Jesus" can proclaim all day 'Jesus is Lord' .
Honestly IDK why Paul said that either.
Hollywood actors can do it. Hereticks can do it.
Goodness, televangelists do it all the time, & with feeling!
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#10
#10
Remember in the days of paul and the others you would be put to death for such a remark.
We somtimes forget the times of the first church. There was no freedom of speach.
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

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It would seem that there is to be a basic assumption in these texts, and that assumption is that a person is either Truly saved or still remains under the leadership of their Spiritual father, the Devil.

Verse one tells us that the context is Spiritual Gifts:

1 Corinthians 12:1 KJV - "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant."

There doesn't seem to be any middle ground, such as a person who gladly receives the Gospel, but then their seed dries and withers. These people claim all day that Jesus is Lord, but are yet to be Truly Saved. However, a demon-filled person would never claim that Jesus is Lord.

My biological father was like this. He used to be the fellah that would shout out holy things during a church service, sang in the choir, etc. But ultimately, he turned out to be a man that did some of the most evil things . . . a terrifying man. That said, he would likely admit that Jesus is Lord even to this day. But I wonder that perhaps the Lord might save him even on his Catholic death bed, as was the case with my Catholic grandmother. Just minutes before she died, she looked up into the corner of the hospital room as if to see Jesus. She raised from the bed, lifted her arms in the air to Him as if to experience the most incredible sense and source of Peace and Love. That day, that night . . . just minutes before she died, the Lord Circumcised her heart so that she would be Purified before the Lord.

No one knows when the Lord will cleanse of from the Curse of the Lord. To some, it is early in life and for others, it is within the last few minutes. It is up to the Lord to choose whom He will save and when . . . these things we do not know nor understand (in terms of His timing). So, perhaps an evil, uncleansed person can still claim that Jesus is Lord even though they are yet to be saved . . . but one day they WILL be saved. This . . . only the Lord knows.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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2ndTimothyGroup said:
It would seem that there is to be a basic assumption in these texts, and that assumption is that a person is either Truly saved or still remains under the leadership of their Spiritual father, the Devil.

Verse one tells us that the context is Spiritual Gifts:

1 Corinthians 12:1 KJV - "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant."

There doesn't seem to be any middle ground, such as a person who gladly receives the Gospel, but then their seed dries and withers. These people claim all day that Jesus is Lord, but are yet to be Truly Saved. However, a demon-filled person would never claim that Jesus is Lord.

My biological father was like this. He used to be the fellah that would shout out holy things during a church service, sang in the choir, etc. But ultimately, he turned out to be a man that did some of the most evil things . . . a terrifying man. That said, he would likely admit that Jesus is Lord even to this day. But I wonder that perhaps the Lord might save him even on his Catholic death bed, as was the case with my Catholic grandmother. Just minutes before she died, she looked up into the corner of the hospital room as if to see Jesus. She raised from the bed, lifted her arms in the air to Him as if to experience the most incredible sense and source of Peace and Love. That day, that night . . . just minutes before she died, the Lord Circumcised her heart so that she would be Purified before the Lord.

No one knows when the Lord will cleanse of from the Curse of the Lord. To some, it is early in life and for others, it is within the last few minutes. It is up to the Lord to choose whom He will save and when . . . these things we do not know nor understand (in terms of His timing). So, perhaps an evil, uncleansed person can still claim that Jesus is Lord even though they are yet to be saved . . . but one day they WILL be saved. This . . . only the Lord knows.
Click to expand...
One other thing is that we are in a war. We go to battle daily and some days don't fare so well, to put it gently.
One thing I do know. God corrects us because he loves us and we need our hearts prepared for that on either end.
 
R

Runningman

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#15
Mar 4, 2020
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#15
Shilohsfoal said:
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the spirit of God says Jesus be cursed, and no one can say"Jesus is Lord "exept by the holy spirit.


Sometimes a wonder why Paul says some of the things he does. There have probably been hundreds of millions of people in the last 2000 years who have said" Jesus is Lord"who have not recieved the holy ghost.
Jesus even says in the gospel many people will come to him calling him Lord and he will say to them that he never knew them.

So why in the world would Paul make claims so that people such as Jim Jones can minipulate people using Paul's words as proof they have recieved the holy ghost?
Click to expand...
In a sense, the reason anyone is alive, Christian and non-Christian alike, is because God is currently and actively allowing it.

Hebrews 1:3
…upholding all things by the word of his power…

So when someone says “Jesus is Lord”, whether they mean that with their heart or not, then it can be accredited to the Holy Spirit for allowing this; having breath in their lungs is because God is allowing it. In this way, no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

But what Paul probably meant is that no one can sincerely say Jesus is Lord without God’s help.
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

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Feb 20, 2021
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Edify said:
So a dedicated soul can be lost & a half-hearted lazy soul can be forcefully redeemed?!?
Click to expand...
Exodus 33:19 NKJV - "Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Romans 9:19-22 NLT - "Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?" 20 No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? 22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction."

I don't know about you, but I don't question God, for His Ways are not our ways nor are His thoughts like our thoughts.

Sorry that you're angry.

Ephesians 4:31 NLT - "Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of evil behavior."
 
E

Edify

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Jan 27, 2021
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2ndTimothyGroup said:
Exodus 33:19 NKJV - "Then He said, "I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Romans 9:19-22 NLT - "Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven't they simply done what he makes them do?" 20 No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? 22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction."

I don't know about you, but I don't question God, for His Ways are not our ways nor are His thoughts like our thoughts.

Sorry that you're angry.

Ephesians 4:31 NLT - "Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of evil behavior."
Click to expand...
IF I were angry, I would just leave the site & never come back.
It seems that you have forgotten this scripture:
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Matthew 23:37 (KJV)
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE would not!
1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Ezekiel 18:23-29 (KJV)
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

If the Lord saved some & condemned others He would be a respecter of persons.

Why would someone who supposed to know the Bible say such things?!?
 
E

Edify

Well-known member
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Jan 27, 2021
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#18
2ndTimothyGroup said:
Ephesians 4:31 NLT - "Get rid of all bitterness, rage, anger, harsh words, and slander, as well as all types of evil behavior."
Click to expand...
BTW, you need to know people before you start falsely judging them
 
SomeDisciple

SomeDisciple

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Jul 4, 2021
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#19
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: 2You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.
In the first century, there were various Roman cults in Corinth with many religious centers or "temples" with idols of Greek/Roman "gods" and even of emperors. These "dumb" idols didn't speak, but Roman customs, temple priesthoods, and false prophets led people to worship them.
3Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
Note that this chapter begins with "concerning spiritual gifts". So this isn't about a casual conversation between Bobby-Joe and Jim-Bob at the hoedown, and it's not about some random evangelist or preacher- this is about people you already presume to be spiritually gifted.
4There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
When a gift that involves conveying a message, it is understood that "the spirit gives the utterance". But not all "inspired" speech is inspired of God. The Holy Spirit is never going to say Jesus is accursed- so you can assume that any utterance given or received like that is not from the Holy Spirit; whether you are the one receiving the utterance, or the one hearing it come out of someone else's mouth.
What Paul is NOT saying is that "whenever you hear someone magnify Jesus- that means everything they say is inspired speech". He's not saying that at all.
ACTS 16
16And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: 17The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. 18And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
Here in ACTS 16, Paul is in Phillipi trying to pray- and this girl comes up crying out by demon-inspired prophecy in order to distract him from praying and to draw unwanted attention to him. What she actually says sounds like a nice thing to say, right? But it's DISORDERLY and it's NOT FROM GOD. Paul later casts this demon out of her- understanding that, indeed, her speech was inspired... by something... that is drawing attention to him- and not Jesus.


So while it is a given that anyone or anything denying Jesus is not of God -inspired or not-, even inspired utterances need to be examined- both by the person receiving them, and the people listening. It doesn't matter if you trust the person and in the past they predicted the exact number of monkey-pox sores that would appear on your body, and when they would be healed.
But on the other hand; if you're just hearing some random dude saying "Jesus is Lord, and give me all your money", you might want to question whether their speech is inspired in the first place.
 
2ndTimothyGroup

2ndTimothyGroup

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#20
Feb 20, 2021
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#20
Edify said:
IF I were angry, I would just leave the site & never come back.
It seems that you have forgotten this scripture:
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Matthew 23:37 (KJV)
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE would not!
1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Ezekiel 18:23-29 (KJV)
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

If the Lord saved some & condemned others He would be a respecter of persons.

Why would someone who supposed to know the Bible say such things?!?
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, but I'm not going to go down the wild path that you're on. Take care.
 
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