Research: Majority of Americans Believe Works Are the Key to Salvation
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just an interesting thing i noticed while a couple of people seem to be misunderstanding each other..
@gb9 didn't say "Paul's gospel" or "his gospel" -- he said "the gospel"
Paul also calls it "the" singular gospel:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
(Romans 1:16-17)
this is a favorite verse of mine to show people who think the Jews have a different gospel than the Gentiles. it's clearly one, singular gospel of Christ which was first brought to the Jews and then to the Gentiles, and this is that gospel: "the just shall live by faith"
in Habakkuk that faith is linked with humility:
this is not to say that as a believer i do not try to do well or that i don't think i need to do well -- but i certainly don't ever think of myself as having ever accomplished any good works, much less imagine they commend me to God.
Paul does the same: he considers himself as having no good thing in him ((Romans 7:18)) and in Philippians 3 calls all the righteous works he may have according to the law worthless rubbish, even "loss" compared to having faith in Christ, which is true righteousness that is able to save: a righteous that is not his own.
@gb9 didn't say "Paul's gospel" or "his gospel" -- he said "the gospel"
Paul also calls it "the" singular gospel:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
(Romans 1:16-17)
this is a favorite verse of mine to show people who think the Jews have a different gospel than the Gentiles. it's clearly one, singular gospel of Christ which was first brought to the Jews and then to the Gentiles, and this is that gospel: "the just shall live by faith"
in Habakkuk that faith is linked with humility:
Behold the proud,
His soul is not upright in him;
But the just shall live by his faith.
(Habakkuk 2:4)
and in Matthew 7 those people to whom Christ said He never knew them were proudly pointing at their wonderful powerful works they had done, astonished that God didn't accept them. likewise in Luke 18 the pharisee proud of his good obedient works before God in the temple was not justified, but the wretched man without works who plead with God to show mercy on him, received it. (Habakkuk 2:4)
this is not to say that as a believer i do not try to do well or that i don't think i need to do well -- but i certainly don't ever think of myself as having ever accomplished any good works, much less imagine they commend me to God.
Paul does the same: he considers himself as having no good thing in him ((Romans 7:18)) and in Philippians 3 calls all the righteous works he may have according to the law worthless rubbish, even "loss" compared to having faith in Christ, which is true righteousness that is able to save: a righteous that is not his own.
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FreeGrace2 said:
If you think 1 Cor 3:14,15 is about losing salvation, then YOU misunderstand the verse.
I'm not sure what your sentence means. Could you please re-phrase. I can't figure out what "listing salvation builder" means.
Again, you simply do not understand what metaphors are used for. Jesus NEVER taught that salvation could be lost.
If He did, He would have contradicted Himself. Is that what you want to argue?
You just don't understand how the Bible uses the word "fire".
That was my point. But you fail to understand how to differentiate between them.
Again, Jesus taught eternal security in John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47, and 10:28.
If you think 1 Cor 3:14,15 is about losing salvation, then YOU misunderstand the verse.
I'm not sure what your sentence means. Could you please re-phrase. I can't figure out what "listing salvation builder" means.
Again, you simply do not understand what metaphors are used for. Jesus NEVER taught that salvation could be lost.
If He did, He would have contradicted Himself. Is that what you want to argue?
You just don't understand how the Bible uses the word "fire".
That was my point. But you fail to understand how to differentiate between them.
Again, Jesus taught eternal security in John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47, and 10:28.
The REASON believers are commanded to do good works is because they are NOT automatic, nor guaranteed.
So you are just as wrong as Martin.
Sorry, I don't understand this. Also, did you mean Matthew?
Are you really not aware that what Martin said is a contradiction in terms.
If we are saved by FAITH ALONE, then that FAITH is ALONE. If it is "never alone", then we really aren't saved by "faith alone".
You and Martin are just trying to have it both ways. Which is impossible.
You need to figure out your contradiction. And fix it.
So you are just as wrong as Martin.
Sorry, I don't understand this. Also, did you mean Matthew?
Are you really not aware that what Martin said is a contradiction in terms.
If we are saved by FAITH ALONE, then that FAITH is ALONE. If it is "never alone", then we really aren't saved by "faith alone".
You and Martin are just trying to have it both ways. Which is impossible.
You need to figure out your contradiction. And fix it.
You have made two mistakes.
You made the statement below. The Koine Greek word for faith is 'pistis'.
The Koine Greek word for believe is also 'pistis'.
So essentially your statement reads, "The devil believes but doesn't have a belief".
The second mistake was in your first statement of your post, shown below.
Jesus is our justification, redemption, and our sanctification.
Hebrews 10:10
By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.
You made the statement below. The Koine Greek word for faith is 'pistis'.
The Koine Greek word for believe is also 'pistis'.
So essentially your statement reads, "The devil believes but doesn't have a belief".
The second mistake was in your first statement of your post, shown below.
Jesus is our justification, redemption, and our sanctification.
Hebrews 10:10
By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.
The whole law grants the knowledge of sin, not just the so called 'moral law'.
The law covers a very wide range of sin, civil law, health law, social law, criminal law, temple law, priesthood law, etc.
There is a broad range of so called moral law in the scripture, not just the ten commandments.
The entire legal system of the Old Testament was the shadow.
Moses continually wrote about Jesus, virtually every line of the law foreshadowed the approaching Messiah.
Jesus was the only person that ever obeyed the law without fault.
Everyone else deserved nothing more than a fiery judgement by God.
Not one of us deserves salvation, we were all dead in our sin.
The Old Testament was the shadow.
The law covers a very wide range of sin, civil law, health law, social law, criminal law, temple law, priesthood law, etc.
There is a broad range of so called moral law in the scripture, not just the ten commandments.
The entire legal system of the Old Testament was the shadow.
Moses continually wrote about Jesus, virtually every line of the law foreshadowed the approaching Messiah.
Jesus was the only person that ever obeyed the law without fault.
Everyone else deserved nothing more than a fiery judgement by God.
Not one of us deserves salvation, we were all dead in our sin.
The Old Testament was the shadow.
FreeGrace2 said:
The question was what were the commands for? Salvation or blessings and reward? Do you have an answer?
So then, it seems you are saying that the commands are for blessings and reward, and not for salvation.
The question was what were the commands for? Salvation or blessings and reward? Do you have an answer?
So then, it seems you are saying that the commands are for blessings and reward, and not for salvation.
The old commandments delivered death to everyone. It doesn't take much thought to realize that. If you harbor some hatred towards someone else. Then you have become guilty of killing someone. Guilty enough to go to hell. As Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:22.
Jesus also dealt another death blow to humanity by repeating the above train of thought. Towards the commandment against adultery. Think the thought, lust, and you are guilty of adultery.
Have a train of thought along the lines of desiring something that belongs to someone else (coveting), the same outcome.
The ten commandments will take no prisoners, the ten commandments are deadly.
The only blessing in the law, is through the tears of anyone who realizes that they are a transgressor.
The law is a lamp for the feet, so you can see the path your on has a deep downward slope.
Look up at the true light, for the light of Christ fills the entire universe.
So, when Paul says "Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, yea, we establish the law", he's referring to the law of Moses? That Christians are to "establish" ceremonial sacrifices, circumcision, drink offerings, meat offerings, first-born redemption offerings, etc.?
I can assure you he is not, for we don't kill lambs anymore. However, you know what law Paul is referring to? The same one he was referring to when he helped to restate it in its entirety in the NT: the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
I think you might want to reconsider your claim that Paul always refers to the Mosaic Law when he uses the word "law"
I can assure you he is not, for we don't kill lambs anymore. However, you know what law Paul is referring to? The same one he was referring to when he helped to restate it in its entirety in the NT: the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
I think you might want to reconsider your claim that Paul always refers to the Mosaic Law when he uses the word "law"
So, when Paul says "Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, yea, we establish the law", he's referring to the law of Moses? That Christians are to "establish" ceremonial sacrifices, circumcision, drink offerings, meat offerings, first-born redemption offerings, etc.?
I can assure you he is not, for we don't kill lambs anymore. However, you know what law Paul is referring to? The same one he was referring to when he helped to restate it in its entirety in the NT: the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
I think you might want to reconsider your claim that Paul always refers to the Mosaic Law when he uses the word "law"
I can assure you he is not, for we don't kill lambs anymore. However, you know what law Paul is referring to? The same one he was referring to when he helped to restate it in its entirety in the NT: the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
I think you might want to reconsider your claim that Paul always refers to the Mosaic Law when he uses the word "law"
How about the two greatest commandments in the law.
Matthew 22:36-40
Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ Upon these two commandments hang the whole Law and the Prophets.”
Those two commandments above are ceremonial laws and abolished?
The definition of the phrase, 'the law', in the Old testament, really only has one definition.
No way! All Scripture is in harmony with itself.
Yes, when OSAS comes to "not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law shall be justified" and changes it to mean "whether you hear only or hear and do, it's all good" -- THEY DEMONSTRATE THEIR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING BY MAKING IT SAY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT IS PLAINLY STATED.
OSAS is anything but Biblical, but that's another discussion. What I'm in search of is a OSAS person to read Romans 2:13 KJV along with 1 John 3:7 KJV and show how they are in perfect harmony with Ephesians 2:8 KJV WITHOUT DENYING WHAT IS PLAINLY STATED BY ANY OF THEM.
See? By your own use of the word "opposite" you've made my point by insisting all three of these verses: Eph. 2:8, 1 Jn 3:7, and Romans 2:13 lack the Biblical harmony that I assure you is there, concluding that the two are opposite from Eph. 2:8. I assure you they are in perfect harmony, but you and the rest of the OSAS crowd cannot see how or why.
Yes, when OSAS comes to "not the hearers of the law but the doers of the law shall be justified" and changes it to mean "whether you hear only or hear and do, it's all good" -- THEY DEMONSTRATE THEIR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING BY MAKING IT SAY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT IS PLAINLY STATED.
OSAS is anything but Biblical, but that's another discussion. What I'm in search of is a OSAS person to read Romans 2:13 KJV along with 1 John 3:7 KJV and show how they are in perfect harmony with Ephesians 2:8 KJV WITHOUT DENYING WHAT IS PLAINLY STATED BY ANY OF THEM.
See? By your own use of the word "opposite" you've made my point by insisting all three of these verses: Eph. 2:8, 1 Jn 3:7, and Romans 2:13 lack the Biblical harmony that I assure you is there, concluding that the two are opposite from Eph. 2:8. I assure you they are in perfect harmony, but you and the rest of the OSAS crowd cannot see how or why.
So, when Paul says "Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, yea, we establish the law", he's referring to the law of Moses? That Christians are to "establish" ceremonial sacrifices, circumcision, drink offerings, meat offerings, first-born redemption offerings, etc.?
I can assure you he is not, for we don't kill lambs anymore. However, you know what law Paul is referring to? The same one he was referring to when he helped to restate it in its entirety in the NT: the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
I think you might want to reconsider your claim that Paul always refers to the Mosaic Law when he uses the word "law"
I can assure you he is not, for we don't kill lambs anymore. However, you know what law Paul is referring to? The same one he was referring to when he helped to restate it in its entirety in the NT: the TEN COMMANDMENTS.
I think you might want to reconsider your claim that Paul always refers to the Mosaic Law when he uses the word "law"
The law defines what sin is. We establish the law as a simple way to understand your opposition to God, i.e., sin.
Though sin is legion, the law gives a simple way of recognizing a small set of sins.
After all, the law merely grants the knowledge of sin, nothing more.
Your not dealing with your sinful flesh by not coveting that oxen, believe me on this.
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If you love God, you'll keep the first four, and if you love your neighbor, the last six. The Mosaic Law was nailed to the Cross, while the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness". That's Psalms 111:7-8 KJV talking about the law made with God's own hands, not what Moses wrote with his.
I think I well understand what "establish the law" means.
A law is either respected and obeyed or ignored and discarded. Those who respect and obey establish it, while those who ignore and discard it make it void.
"Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, yea, we establish the law" means "do we ignore the law because we claim to have faith? No, we are faithful to obey it."
Isn't that what James says? "..show me your faith without works and I'll show you my faith by my works".
A law is either respected and obeyed or ignored and discarded. Those who respect and obey establish it, while those who ignore and discard it make it void.
"Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid, yea, we establish the law" means "do we ignore the law because we claim to have faith? No, we are faithful to obey it."
Isn't that what James says? "..show me your faith without works and I'll show you my faith by my works".
FreeGrace2 said:
Actually, when someone comes to verses that "say the opposite" of other verses, shows that they fail to properly understand either one or both of the verses.
Can you cite anyone who has really said all this? I sure don't accept that statement and I'm a very strong proponent of eternal security.
If there are those who DO say what you note above who are OSAS, then I disagree with them strongly.
.
The problem with your views, as I see it, is you are hung up on Rom 2. Paul's whole point was that eternal life can only be earned by "consistently doing good", or "doers of the law". However, in ch 3 Paul destroys the idea that anyone CAN earn it. See 3:9,10,20,23.
So, because of this FACT, Jesus HAD to come to earth, die on the cross for the sins of everyone.
Actually, that IS the discussion. Your claim here flies in the face of what Jesus taught. How in the world can you not know that??
Jesus tells us how to receive eteranl life (salvation). John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47. All of these say that eternal life is received by believing in Him for it. And 5:24 tells us WHEN that occurs; which is WHEN a person believes. Meaning, the MOMENT one believes.
10:28 ends all discussion. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Those are Jesus' own words. Words that you have contradicted.
You are really confused, because I have said repeatedly that ALL of Scripture is in perfect harmony, so your claim here cannot be true.
You have just proved my point that you haven't understood what I've said.
Why do you insist on the KJV? That translation was taken from manuscripts dated from the 9th and 10th centuries, unlike more recent translations that were taken from manuscripts dates back to the 2nd century, meaning that the earlier manuscripts are MORE ACCURATE and have less additions to the text.
As I said, EVERY verse is in harmony with every other verse. I'm going to ignore your request for the KJV, but here goes with what most scholars believe to be the best English translation. Take it or leave it.
English Standard Version
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Rom 2:13
English Standard Version
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 1 John 3:7
English Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
2:13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God" The term "hearers" can refer to
The term "just" or "justified" (dikē in all its forms) is a crucial term in Paul's theology (cf. Rom. 3:4, 20,24,26,28,30; 4:2,5; 5:1,9; 6:7; 8:30,33). The words "just," "justify," "justification," "right," and "righteousness" are all derived from dikaios. In Hebrew (tsadag, BDB 843) it originally referred to a long straight reed (15 to 20 feet) which was used to measure things, such as walls or fences, for plumb. It came to be used metaphorically of God as the standard of judgment.
In Paul's writings the term had two foci. First, God's own righteousness is given to sinful mankind as a free gift through faith in Christ. This is often called imputed righteousness or forensic righteousness. It refers to one's legal standing before a righteous God. This is the origin of Paul's famous "justification by grace through faith" theme.
Second, God's activity of restoring sinful mankind into His image (cf. Gen. 1:26-27), or to put it another way, to bring about Christlikeness. This verse-like Matt. 7:24; Luke 8:21 and 11:28; John 13:17; James 1:22-23,25-urges believers to be doers not just hearers. Imputed righteousness (justification) must result in righteous living (sanctification). God forgives and changes sinners! Paul's usage was both legal and ethical. From: http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/new_testament_studies/VOL05/VOL05_02.html
Bottom line here; the word "justification" has 2 meanings; one is positional or imputed. The other is experiential, which is what spiritual growth leads to. These have to be understood before there can be any understanding of what Paul was talking about when he wrote about justification.
So, given all this, Rom 2:13 speaks of "the doers of the law". Here, it refers to faith in Christ and receiving imputed righteousness. This has nothing to do with working for salvation.
1 John 3:7 speaks of experiential justification, from doing "good" or doing "works" from the power of the Holy Spirit, who indwells every believer but "fills" very few believers. Most believers don't even know how to be filled with the Spirit, which is a direct command in Eph 5:18.
Actually, when someone comes to verses that "say the opposite" of other verses, shows that they fail to properly understand either one or both of the verses.
Can you cite anyone who has really said all this? I sure don't accept that statement and I'm a very strong proponent of eternal security.
If there are those who DO say what you note above who are OSAS, then I disagree with them strongly.
.
The problem with your views, as I see it, is you are hung up on Rom 2. Paul's whole point was that eternal life can only be earned by "consistently doing good", or "doers of the law". However, in ch 3 Paul destroys the idea that anyone CAN earn it. See 3:9,10,20,23.
So, because of this FACT, Jesus HAD to come to earth, die on the cross for the sins of everyone.
Actually, that IS the discussion. Your claim here flies in the face of what Jesus taught. How in the world can you not know that??
Jesus tells us how to receive eteranl life (salvation). John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47. All of these say that eternal life is received by believing in Him for it. And 5:24 tells us WHEN that occurs; which is WHEN a person believes. Meaning, the MOMENT one believes.
10:28 ends all discussion. Recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Those are Jesus' own words. Words that you have contradicted.
You are really confused, because I have said repeatedly that ALL of Scripture is in perfect harmony, so your claim here cannot be true.
You have just proved my point that you haven't understood what I've said.
Why do you insist on the KJV? That translation was taken from manuscripts dated from the 9th and 10th centuries, unlike more recent translations that were taken from manuscripts dates back to the 2nd century, meaning that the earlier manuscripts are MORE ACCURATE and have less additions to the text.
As I said, EVERY verse is in harmony with every other verse. I'm going to ignore your request for the KJV, but here goes with what most scholars believe to be the best English translation. Take it or leave it.
English Standard Version
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Rom 2:13
English Standard Version
Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 1 John 3:7
English Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
2:13 "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God" The term "hearers" can refer to
- rabbinical usage which had a specialized sense of rabbinical students of the Torah
- those who heard the Scriptures read in synagogue
The term "just" or "justified" (dikē in all its forms) is a crucial term in Paul's theology (cf. Rom. 3:4, 20,24,26,28,30; 4:2,5; 5:1,9; 6:7; 8:30,33). The words "just," "justify," "justification," "right," and "righteousness" are all derived from dikaios. In Hebrew (tsadag, BDB 843) it originally referred to a long straight reed (15 to 20 feet) which was used to measure things, such as walls or fences, for plumb. It came to be used metaphorically of God as the standard of judgment.
In Paul's writings the term had two foci. First, God's own righteousness is given to sinful mankind as a free gift through faith in Christ. This is often called imputed righteousness or forensic righteousness. It refers to one's legal standing before a righteous God. This is the origin of Paul's famous "justification by grace through faith" theme.
Second, God's activity of restoring sinful mankind into His image (cf. Gen. 1:26-27), or to put it another way, to bring about Christlikeness. This verse-like Matt. 7:24; Luke 8:21 and 11:28; John 13:17; James 1:22-23,25-urges believers to be doers not just hearers. Imputed righteousness (justification) must result in righteous living (sanctification). God forgives and changes sinners! Paul's usage was both legal and ethical. From: http://www.freebiblecommentary.org/new_testament_studies/VOL05/VOL05_02.html
Bottom line here; the word "justification" has 2 meanings; one is positional or imputed. The other is experiential, which is what spiritual growth leads to. These have to be understood before there can be any understanding of what Paul was talking about when he wrote about justification.
So, given all this, Rom 2:13 speaks of "the doers of the law". Here, it refers to faith in Christ and receiving imputed righteousness. This has nothing to do with working for salvation.
1 John 3:7 speaks of experiential justification, from doing "good" or doing "works" from the power of the Holy Spirit, who indwells every believer but "fills" very few believers. Most believers don't even know how to be filled with the Spirit, which is a direct command in Eph 5:18.