Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

Free choice affords alternatives at an individual's discretion barring impassable constraints. Such that of our human nature.

Free will presumes the capacity to bypass the God given constraints so to exercise our choices thinking to overcome our God given destiny.
Proverbs 16:33

And that is how most people use "free will". Making changes within the available options.

The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

If you think that every decision man makes "is from the LORD", then you have to believe that God forces men into evil behaviors.

Man is responsible for HIS OWN CHOICES. And God would not hold anyone accountable if He was making all their choices.

I just can't believe why anyone would believe these non-biblical calvinistic talking points.

New International Version
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

English Standard Version
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

These verses are saying the same thing. To "bring salvation to everyone" is to "offer salvation to everyone".

Free choice. Calvinists will balk.

Hi freegrace,

Freedom of the will is about 'being'.

Your will is not your intentions thoughts or actions. Rather, your intentions, thoughts and actions flow from your will/being.


In fact, your will is not free from the bondage of sin until Christ sets you free.

We all make free choices we both agree with that. Where we disagree is - do these choices come from the will from the heart.. Since we are referring to moral ability.

....... but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.”


But a what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come b evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, d slander. These are what defile a person (Mat15:11b; 18-20a).

All men and woman are in bondage to sin.. None seek after God. And left to our own devices no one would choose to believe jesus. It takes the outward call of the gospel and the inward working of the spirit to bring sinners to faith.


The effectual call of God is both outword and inward.


Anyhow, have a good evening freegrace.

Then we disagree. The phrase has always been used with choice.

There is no doubt that we are not free of gravitational forces, etc. And that has nothing to do with choice.

Kinda sounds like a word game, maybe. Every thought flows from your being. Even choices.

This has nothing to do with believing the gospel. The Bible says twice in Acts that Jews REFUSED to believe in Christ. That is a choice.

The Bible tells us exactly WHERE our belief comes from: the heart. Romans 10:10

Please show me a verse that teaches that man is morally unable to believe. Because I choose not to believe what you claim.

Except faith toward God. That pleases God. Heb 11:6

This doesn't prove anything.

Quoting from Rom 3:10 I see. Do you know which OT passage Paul quoted from? Psa 14:1-3. I suggest you read it. And then read Psa 53:1-3. That is who don't seek God.

I quoted Heb 11:6 to you already. The verse acknowledges that men DO seek God. Why do you choose to not believe that?

And do you have any evidence from Scripture for this claim? You seem to have learned a lot of Calvinist talking points. But when the Berean Bible Study method is employed, your points come up lacking any evidence.

iow, find verses that teach any of the points of Calvinism.

Now, let's apply this to your talking points:

ACTS 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what CALVINISM said was true.

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but what verse teaches this?

Any verse that says this?

Like the Bereans, I see what others claim, and then see if the Bible says it. If not, I don't believe it.

Thanks. Just getting over covid......again. Last time was a real mild cold. This time a worse cold.

Praying you get over covid quickly and it doesn't get any worse freegrace 🙏

Yeah I believe as well every man/woman has to make a choice. Most reject and a minority accept (haven't a clue what the percentage is but seems the majority reject Christ (sadly)).. All the more reason to spread the gospel.


I don't think I made my self clear on that point🤔.. I take the reformed view that man has lost the ability of will to any spiritual good to choose the things from above.

You asked me to show you in scripture man's moral in ability. So here's a brief overview..

After falling into the state of sin after the fall man lost the moral ability to accompany salvation - Rom 5:6; 8:7; John 6:44ff and John 15:5.

Men and woman are averse altogether from choosing the good - Romans 3:10ff. Before the flood God said man's heart was continually evil, everything they thought or imagined was evil. ...

But notice that after the flood God still said man's thoughts and imaginations were continually evil.

Before the flood Genesis 6:5
After the flood. Genesis 8:21.

Man is dead in his sin - Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13.

Man is not able, by his own will/strength to convert himself, or prepare himself.. The soil needs to be prepared to receive the seed - John 6:44ff; Eph 2:2-5; 1 Cor 2:14; Titus 3:3-5.

When God converts sinners, and brings them into a state of grace he free's them from their natural bondage under sin - Romans 6:11ff; Col 1:13; John 8:34-36.

And by Gods grace he enables them to freely will and do that which is spiritually good - Phil 2:13; Romans 6:18,22.

The will of man is only made perfect and free to do good alone in the state of glory - Eph 4:13; Heb 12:23; 1 John 3:2; Jude v24.

Anyhow.. Hope your covid symptoms get better soon 👍

Thanks. The first first go-round was real mild (delta), but this one (BA5) is like a really bad cold.

I agree.

Rom 2:14,15 teach that God created mankind with a conscience, with which to make decisions. And Heb 11: acknowldges tha men do seek God.

I disagree on the basis that man didn't need salvation before he sinned. So "moral ability" wasn't an issue in the Garden. When the man and woman sinned, they lost relationship with God and couldn't fix it. So God intervened, provided animal skins to clothe them which illustrates the gospel message and sacrifice of Christ for sin.

Rom 3-
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

need to be careful when quoting or citing Rom 3:10-18. Paul quoted from 6 OT verses to show the various way all men are sinners.

When he wrote "none that seek God", he was quoting Psa 14:1-3-
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

So, Paul referring to atheists who don't seek God or does good. All atheists have turned away.

So Rom 3:10 does NOT apply to all of humanity.

In fact, none of the verses that Paul quoted in v,10-18 apply to everyone.

That's why He wiped them all out and started over with Noah and family.

Yet, what does the Bible say about Job: a righteous and God fearing man.

Yes all people are born spiritually dead. However, there is nothing to prepare. Or quote a verse that shows a preparation.

Man isn't soil, so we don't need to quote parables. Re: Jn 6:44, just look at the next verse, v.45. It says very plainly that it is those who listened and learned that will come to Jesus. That's what Jesus said. If you want preparation, there it is. God has taught everyone and those who paid attention have prepared themselves and will come to Jesus.

No, they are NOT freed from sin. Read Romans 6:11-16. It is very clear that man chooses to whom he will be a slave. And Ppaul wrote all that to believers.

Right. Not until man receives his glorified body.

Thanks.

Hi freegrace,

I never stated man was freed from sin. What I did say is this - man is freed from the bondage of sin.. That is why I made sure to include the last point. We are only free from sin when we are glorified.

Anyhow, have a good evening.. Bed time here 😴😴😴😴

You need to read Romans 1,2 and 3...Paul is talking about all humanity Jew and Gentile alike. Those not in christ of course.

............


Regarding your point about Adam and eve, you fail to include the fall in your conclusion.. Before the fall Adam and eve had moral ability, we say the state of innocence... Then they fell and their nature's became sinful. Now they and all humanity have a sin nature and not morally able.

The fact that they ran and hid from God proves my point and not yours. It was God who who came to them and covered them.. They never sought God after they fell.. Pretty much why Paul quoting the psalmist... None seek after God... Adam and Eve hid.

I often see this, people seem to think that we are like Adam and eve before the fall. The scripture teaches that we are not. In fact the only person to be like them before the fall is Jesus himself.

When we are glorified at the end of the age we will be in a better position as we will not have the possibility to sin. Unlike Adam and Eve.

Anyhow definatly going to bed now.. Late here. 🛌😴😴😂

I like your entire post.

As for the portion of it that I copied above, this causes me to associate "who you are" with who our Father is? There are only two possible fathers that we can have, and it is either God the Father or Satan the Father.

John 8:44 NKJV - "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."

1 John 3:1 NKJV - "Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him."

Who we are and what we do depends upon who our Spiritual Father is. And as said, we are not the father of ourselves. We are either the son of the Devil or the Son of Christ, who is our alleged Master and God.

Unbelievable. I missed this passage from Proverbs 16. I caught 16:9, which is: "We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps." - Verse 33 is relaying the same concept.

I love your way with words, especially Holy Words. I appreciate your insight.

One could easily argue that this is the essential point and purpose of the entire Bible. Of course, I never knew this until I began reading the Bible from the timeline, chronological order. I was as blind as a bat until I began taking God's Word seriously.

https://www.gotquestions.org/chronological-Bible.html


https://www.christianbook.com/page/bibles/chronological-bibles?search=Chronological Bible&search_term=Chronological Bible

This is very well put together, using Scripture that is difficult to refute. I can't imagine why anyone would even try.

Thank you for this offering! It is so important that we, the people, learn to read the Bible in a timeline, chronological order. I am totally convinced that until we do so, we have virtually no chance of knowing the fullest sense of the Gospel as possible. We MUST know the entire Story of God, which IS the Gospel.

Again, many thanks for posting these links. I hope that others take them and find them useful. Reading the Bible in a timeline, chronological order changed my entire perspective on the Bible as a whole.

Joining you in prayer for FreeGrace and their battle with Covid.🙏😔💕✝️

FreeGrace2 said:
3-
10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

need to be careful when quoting or citing Rom 3:10-18. Paul quoted from 6 OT verses to show the various way all men are sinners.

When he wrote "none that seek God", he was quoting Psa 14:1-3-
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

So, Paul referring to atheists who don't seek God or does good. All atheists have turned away.

So Rom 3:10 does NOT apply to all of humanity.

In fact, none of the verses that Paul quoted in v,10-18 apply to everyone.
I have, of course. And my point still stands.

I'm not buying this "moral ability" stuff. The only prohibition God gave Adam and the woman was the one tree. It was not a moral issue at all. They simply needed to obey the prohibition.

I believe that Paul showed that even Gentiles had moral ability in their consciences.
Rom 2-
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

These 2 verses show that unbelievers have moral ability.

Then you have misunderstood my post. They hid because their human spirit died "on that day" and they lost their ability to worship God. Just as Jesus told a woman at the well in John 4:24 - God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the spirit (human) and in truth.”

The Bible is clear that "on THAT day" they would DIE if they ate the food. Do you know what actually and literally died?

<sigh> You still missed my point about Rom 3:10. Paul was quoting from Isa 14:1-3 which was about atheists. I quoted the verses to you. Didn't you read any of it?

I agree.

Correct.

Yesterday, @Bluesproverb enlightened us to a passage I had previously missed, which is very much identical to a previous passage (covered earlier) within the same chapter. They are:

Proverbs 16:9 NKJV – “A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.”

Proverbs 16:33 NLT – “We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall.”

These verses, in my opinion, tell us precisely what the state of “free will” is. We are free to plan and choose within the constraints our Spiritual Father places upon us. This idea seems to be equivalent to the scenario that a prisoner is capable of thinking and making choices, but they are not free to execute them. A prisoner can choose to be released, but it is up to the Warden if the release is allowed. The prisoner can choose to eat steak and potatoes each night for dinner, but it is up to the Warden if those items are on the menu.

We all make plans, but how often do they come to fruition? How many characters of the Bible planned their way and completed them? Did Stephen plan his own murder? Did Peter plan to be hung upside down? Did Paul intend his lengthy stints of imprisonment? Did Paul plan his countless moments of fear that involved being beaten to near death, shipwrecked, and becoming naked and hungry? Did Jonah plan his trip to Nineveh? And king David? Did he intend to be remarkably abused by king Saul? Nebuchadnezzar? Was it his plan to be turned into a beast? Job? Was it the objective of Job to be placed within a hedge so that Satan could do virtually anything to him (other than kill him)? Was it Job’s plan to have his wife and children killed? Moses? Was it his plan to become the leader and savior of Israel? And his predecessor . . . Joseph? Was it his plan to be abused by his brothers and sold into slavery?

We can plan to our heart’s desire, and sometimes those plans (that seem to come from ourselves) come through). But how many people have made plans since they were children and have completed them? Don’t we all change our plans . . . many times over? Why do we change our plans . . . repeatedly? Further still, how do we know that our change of plans are [not] propelled by God Himself. How can we be sure that it is [not] God who consistently directs and redirects our aim and focus? As the Scripture above states, we may throw the dice, but the Lord determines how they fall.

We are in control of nothing; if we were, it would be impossible for the Lord to possess an Eternal Plan and execute it.

Ephesians 2:10 KJV – “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

Ephesians 3:9-11 NLT – “I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Even if we do have “free will” . . . of what use is it if we are not free to execute it?

Catching up to Day 209 of the timeline, chronological reading plan, we find ourselves back in 2nd Kings with a most interesting and Powerful statement by the Lord our God. It is as follows:

2 Kings 19:25 NLT - “But have you not heard? I decided this long ago. Long ago I planned it, and now I am making it happen. I planned for you to crush fortified cities into heaps of rubble.”

As parents, we can plan everything we like for our children to succeed. But unfortunately, we as mere humans do not have the Power to cause our children to succeed. We can place them on the right path, but we cannot ensure they remain on it. The Lord God, however, [does] possess that Omniscient form of Power. How do we know? The Word of God plainly tells us how Israel did precisely what the Lord had predicted: that Israel would defeat fortified cities. In fact, many of the passages that I’ve posted in this thread cover those exact stories and events. Moreover, these battles were often fought by the Lord, actually causing the enemies of Israel to turn their swords upon each other . . . something that does not happen outside of the Power of God. No human has such Power to cause an entire army to turn upon and kill itself.

If God can cause such incredible events to take place, that He would determine which Nations would reign and which Nations would collapse, how can we conclude that we are in control over our destiny?

Daniel 2:21 NLT – “He controls the course of world events; he removes kings and sets up other kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the scholars.”

When the Lord Plans world events, those Plans include specific people, as Dan 2:21 (above) discloses. God either controls the things that a potential king does so that the people would choose him, or the Lord controls events that lead to that person becoming a “king” (such as death and even murder). Consider Joseph: He was sold into slavery, yet became as Powerful as Pharoah . . . and this was the Plan of the Lord. Below are the words of Joseph (spoken to his brothers) regarding his position:

Genesis 45:5, 8 NKJV - “But now, do not therefore be grieved or angry with yourselves because you sold me here; for God sent me before you to preserve life.” ... 8 “So now it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh, and Lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.”

Can you imagine the thoughts of Joseph’s brothers? Undoubtedly, the brothers thought to themselves, “But wait . . . [we] were the ones who decided to sell our brother into slavery. Yet, our gracious bother is saying that we did not make that decision through our own volition, but the Lord caused us to think and do such a thing.”

Question: Would you be fearful (of God) if you were to find out that the Lord had such Power that He could cause you to think and act just as the brothers of Joseph? And, if you came to believe this might be the case, how would you feel about your sense of “free will?” Would you begin to question each decision that you were making? Would you wonder if your thoughts were from yourself or from your Powerful, Almighty God?

Day 212 of the timeline, chronological reading plan grants us an amazing example of how Israel placed the responsibility of their going astray to the Lord Himself. It is an incredible charge, but if “you” have been reading each section of Scripture provided in this thread, “you” will see that, in fact, the Lord has been in control since the beginning of His creation.

Isaiah 63:17 NLT - “LORD, why have you allowed us to turn from your path? Why have you given us stubborn hearts so we no longer fear you? Return and help us, for we are your servants, the tribes that are your special possession.”

When these words were recorded, they denoted control, meaning that God could have prevented Israel from turning away from Him just as He prevented king Abimelech from sinning against Abraham’s wife:

Genesis 20:03-6 NLT - “But that night God came to Abimelech in a dream and told him, “You are a dead man, for that woman you have taken is already married!” But Abimelech had not slept with her yet, so he said, “Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation? Didn’t Abraham tell me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘Yes, he is my brother.’ I acted in complete innocence! My hands are clean.” In the dream God responded, “Yes, I know you are innocent. That’s why I kept you from sinning against me, and why I did not let you touch her.”



Furthermore, the writer credits God for Israel possessing “stubborn hearts.” Many believe that we harden our own hearts, which is understandable as plenty of passages indicate such. Still, here, we find credit given to the Lord for Israel possessing collective hardened hearts. Isaiah is begging the Lord for a change, or perhaps an escalation in His Holy Plan. Isaiah is asking that God would speed things up so that Israel would return to the Holy Path and that they would be given new hearts. After all, isn’t this the Promise established with Abraham?

Ezekiel 36:25-27 NIV – “I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.”

I don’t suppose that some of you believe that you can grant yourselves a new heart and a new Spirit? If a person can choose to harden their own heart, then they can also unharden it as well . . . right? If this is the case, there is no need for the Promise, the Blessing given to Abraham. That Blessing is the edict established INTO the life of Abraham . . . where Abraham becomes our Father of Faith as head of the Family of Circumcision . . . a family with Circumcised hearts.

Genesis 17:1 NIV – “When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.”

Did you notice that God said these things and that He did not ask?

Romans 4:11-12, 16 NIV – “And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.” ... 16 “Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.”

The Promise is that of a Circumcised Heart. For what does physical Circumcision represent? Circumcision of the Heart:

Romans 2:29 NLT – “No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.”

“Free will.” Where does this concept live within this short recounting of Scripture above? Right . . . it doesn’t exist. All people were born under the Curse that causes confusion, and none can escape it if not for the Circumcision of Christ. From the beginning, the Promise by God is to grant a new heart and a new Spirit SO THAT His Elect would finally obey. Of course, this means that a person is without the ability to obey until the Lord grants a new heart and a new Spirit.

The Purpose of Christ is to set His Holy Elect free. Free from what? The captivity of the Devil. Jesus does this through four essential Works:

• Circumcises the Heart so that Understanding becomes possible
• Grants the ability to repent, which His Holy Elect will assuredly do
• Grants the Indwelling Holy Spirit, who guides and teaches
• Pays the debt for sin by shedding His Pure Blood on Calvary Hill

Until Jesus sets His Elect free, they are not free in any Spiritual sense, and most definitely, they are NOT free to choose to be Righteous, Holy, Blameless, and Pure. No one can be those things until they are granted and instilled into a believer, just as was Abraham in Genesis chapter 17 above.

Day 222 of the timeline, chronological reading plan places us into the book of Jeremiah, and my oh my, does this Prophet of God have some fantastic things to say about “free will.”

Jeremiah 10:23 NET – “LORD, we know that people do not control their own destiny. It is not in their power to determine what will happen to them.”

Why would Jeremiah express these words to his God? Is it because he is fully aware of the Curse that causes confusion to all who live? Is it because he is fully aware that God is and always has been in total control? Is it because he is aware of the Heavenly Scroll of the Lord (which contains all events, including the deliverance of simple owl and falcons)? Is it because Jeremiah understands that the Eternal Plan of the Lord is in the process of being executed?

What is confusing about . . . “Lord, we know that people do not control their own destiny”? If this passage is True, then we must acknowledge that God has a plan for our lives and that there is nothing we can do about it. We do not possess the Power to determine our lives. What? I’m wrong about this? Then the Bible is wrong, and there is no need to be upset with me for believing what Scripture clearly teaches, which is that: "It is not in their power to determine what will happen to them.”

It amazes me that most “christians” become upset with people like myself who believe in limited free will, which is that we are free to choose, but we are not necessarily free to enforce our choices. So, are we making up doctrine? Are we really twisting Scripture? Or, are we merely guilty of believing the very Scripture that we read with our own eyes? Are we really deceived? If we are Truly deceived, then it is because of the likes of Jeremiah, Isaiah, and David who have caused our great deception, for their instruction alone is vast and incredibly clear regarding this matter of “free will.”

Further still, we should ask the following: How do the Jews translate this passage above in their Jewish Tanakh?

“I know, O Lord, that man’s road is not his [to choose], that man, as he walks, cannot direct his own steps.”

We have “free will”? Of course not. God is in complete and total control. It is difficult to imagine things being any other way if a person examines the entire Bible with the objective in mind to discover and answer this exact question.