Believers Sins Are Forgiven & Washed Away Forever

Reply to your 10 points levied against OP:

1st, I posted a direct C&P quote from Vines Bible Dictionary [ A-2,Verb,G5483, charizomai ] Believer's sin forgiveness is UNCONDITIONAL

Also see [ B-1,Noun,G859, aphesis ] "a dismissal, release" See DELIVERANCE, LIBERTY, RELEASE, REMISSION.

Read Vine's yourself, link provided: https://studybible.info/vines/Forgive, Forgave, Forgiveness

Onto to 10 stated points:

1. It is Christ Himself who said that repentance is necessary for the forgiveness of sins.

(MY REPLY: Christ is still alive; His earthly mission is to Jews under the law only:

Matt 4:23 The Lord Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their (JEWS) synagogues preaching the gospel of the kingdom,

Matt 10:5 The Lord Jesus sends the 12 & commanded them. Don't! go to Gentiles,

Matt 10:6 The Lord Jesus commands the 12: Only go! To lost sheep of the house of Israel,

Matt 15:24 The Lord Jesus said, He's only been sent to preach to the lost sheep of the house of Israel,

Rom 15:8 Paul teaches, Messiah was sent to preach to the circumcision (JEWS),

Acts 10:28 Peter tells Cornelius a gentile. Under Mosaic law (which Jesus taught & faithfully kept) IT'S UNLAWFUL for a Jew to keep company with a gentile. Under Mosaic law gentiles were seen as unclean, bastards outside covenant seals.

Bible study 101: Who is speaking, to whom is he speaking, what is he speaking about. In your posted case Jesus is speaking to Jews only, about repentance to "returning to God". Not! About confessing every personal sin. The sacrificial system dealt with sins.

Also, The Lord Jesus' salvation sealing eternally indwelling Holy Spirit isn't introduced until 50 days after His Resurrection (Acts 2). Additionally, gentiles aren't part of this Temple mount outpouring. It's not until 6-7 years after Pentecost, at Cornelius house (Acts 10).

BTW: These gentiles weren't required to do any repentance of any kind. While Peter is speaking (Acts 10:44 they heard the word) & by Faith & Faith alone they receive Christ's salvation sealing, eternally indwelling Holy Spirit.

Water baptism was not required to receive the Holy Spirit. It came after they had had been filled. Jesus Himself decreed this action. Under Jewish marriage tradition the only requirement for a bride was full Mikveh (origin of today's baptism) & then wait until the bridegroom came for her.

Matt 7:6 The Lord Jesus said, give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
(MY NOTE: Dogs, swine & gentiles all considered unclean/impure under Mosaic Law)

Jn 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the (roman/gentile) hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the Passover.
(MY NOTE: Just being in the gentile Hall of Judgment made a Jew UNCLEAN!)

Nehemiah6, you can't broad brush your unscriptural repent & confess every sin (after conversion), works based doctrine, onto today's Body of Christ believer.

2. When a sinner repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, all his or her past sins are forgiven.

(MY REPLY: I'll leave this notion to a simple I disagree, that forgiveness ends at pre-conversion sins only. Faith & faith alone in Christ' sin atoning death & resurrection is sins remission only requirement.

3. At the same time, the old Adamic sin nature is NOT eradicated. The tendency to sin remains.

(MY REPLY: Here we are in agreement.

4. Therefore believers are commanded to "crucify the flesh" and to "walk in the Spirit".

(MY REPLY: We've already agreed the old Adamic sin nature is NOT eradicated & that the tendency to sin remains. Our disagreement is that Jesus blood can't/doesn't cover post-conversion sin (Jn 1:29 The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!).

5. However it is possible for Christians to sin, and they can and do sin after salvation. There is no sinless perfection for those who have been saved. But there is imputed righteousness.

(MY REPLY: Nehemiah6, Is Christ's righteousness imputed or earned from repenting (self-works) & confessing (self-works) from every post conversion sin? Righteousness is a gift from God (Rom 4:6, 5:17-18, Gal 3:6, 5:5). Gifts are given, not earned. And you say after salvation/eternal life one can lose their salvation for an unconfessed sin. If true, then eternal life isn't eternal!

Nehemiah6, please reply with any post I've said anything about a believer's sinless perfection.

6. Therefore the Bible addresses Christians and says that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. We also make God a liar.

(MY REPLY: This post never claimed believers are sin free. Posted verses cited their sins are imputed onto Christ & then He forgives them.

7. But if we confess our sins (which includes repentance) God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

(MY REPLY 1st you added (which includes repentance). 2ndly, the primary focus of John's ministry is to Jews (Gal 2:9). In chapter 1 his focus is toward the unbelieving Jew. He wouldn't have to tell a believer anything in verse 2 & 3. They would already know this. His message focus turns to the believer at the beginning on chapter 2.

8. However some Christians may not repent and change their ways, and therefore there is also a "sin unto death" for those who are believers.

(MY REPLY: Under the OT/old covenant there were many "sin unto death" that aren't still applicable today. IMO Unbelief in Jesus sin payment & resurrection is the only unforgivable sin. You're free to believe your heart on this one. I see a few verses that come close (Acts1:3, Matt 5:22 both pre-sin payment. (1 Jn 2:9, 2:22, 4:2) having said that. I'm sticking with unbelief/rejection of Christ's sin payment & resurrection only.

9. Therefore Paul warns Christians to examine themselves, particularly before partaking of the Lord's Supper. Those who partake unworthily may be subject to premature death (the sin unto death).

(MY REPLY: you are free to promote your heart on this one as well. My position is this verse is warning unbelievers (every church has them) that partake.

Vine's Dictionary Definition: DISCERNING [ A-2,Verb,G1252, diakrino ] 1 Cor. 11:29, with reference to partaking of the bread and the cup of the Lord's Supper unworthily, "by not discerning" or discriminating/understanding what they represent")

Ex 12:43-48. OT/covenant no foreigners, servants, sojourners or strangers could partake in the in the Passover meal unless they were circumcised. Also see Gen 17:7-14

1 Cor 11:27 Who ever eats this bread, & drinks this cup of the Lord, unworthily (by not discerning/understanding what they represent) will be guilty of the body & blood of the Lord
(MY NOTE: I see many people/teachers/preachers tie/force sin into this verse. Jesus who gave the ordinance, PAID, for the believer's sins. This verse is warning NON-believers. NON-believers are not to partake in this NT/covenant ordinance. 2ndly, communion misuse by a believer can lead to chastisement not loss of salvation

10. The Hyper-Grace crowd refuses to accept these teachings, and insists that once a person is saved, they do not need to deal with their present sins. That is a lie.

(MY REPLY: No bible, bible dictionary or regular dictionary defines this word. So conveniently you can apply any use you chose to explain this non-word meaning. Gotquestions opinion isn't the Holy Spirit inspired word of God.

Finally: Calling brothers in the Lord, liars, because they interrupt or believe different to yourself. That comes close to the maybe's I shared beyond unbelief on "sin unto death". Shalom, FD

I agree with this, but may I ask, are the believers sins forgiven, washed away, before they actually believe ?

Believers Sins Are Forgiven & Washed Away Forever


Yes they are, so let's try not to generate new ones that will need to be repented of. Repentance seems to be a neglected and spurned activity these days. I guess it always has been.

Revelation 2:5

“Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”


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Re. "Once saved, always saved":- Suppose a man who is cynical and bitter encounters the Gospel. Although he hates the idea of being beholden to anyone, including a God, he believes it. He "believes in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ". It may well even fit in with his negative attitude.
He thinks "I've found a loophole! I can do what I want and stay safe." He then sets out on a life course - sinning with apparent impugnity, cursing God - explicitly and with his general attitude - even encouraging others to join him in his rebellion. Throughout his life, he gains a large following.
At the end of his life, he is near death in hospital. He curses God one last time and dies.
The question is - Is this man, on his death bed, saved?

Amen, brother. Sad but true.

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NO!

Find this in the OP:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(MY NOTE: Salvation is obtained by God's GIFT of grace [Rom 3:24, Eph 4:7]. Accessed thru faith placed in Jesus faithful sin atoning death & resurrection [Rom 5:1-2

I said this in Post #50
Once we've acknowledged there is a creator God. That we have sinned against His sovereign reign, deserve heavens wage/DEATH (Rom 6:23). That we're in need of rescue & The Father sent His Son to rescue us. Right here we repent from unbelief to belief. When we confess our sins & trust/receive Christ as Lord & Savior & believe He was raised from the dead.

And this in post #23
True faith comes from the heart, Christ knows everyone's true heart.

1 Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

If someone is making faith statements/confessions trying to cover their bases. They are only fooling themselves.

Deep down, I think we all know the answer...

Hebrews 6:6 Context

3And this will we do, if God permit. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

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This, and others like it, have terrified me ever since I encountered it in my twenties. The example I gave was perhaps extreme, but it was purposefully so, to "test the walls" of the OSAS argument.
Some would say he was never a real Christian, but he DID believe, in the sense that he believed it to be true, although he had no commitment to its purpose.
The subject of "believing (in/ on)" is something I've often pondered, wondering if belief in the facts of it were enough.
I'd like to try to have this elucidated on forums such as this.

I believe the key phrase here is in verse 4...

Hebrews 6:4

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,”

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From OP -----my view on this

This is False Doctrine -----to have your past --present and future sins forgiven you have to be Born Again ---that is receive Jesus in your heart -------so forgiveness of a believers sin is Conditional -----

God's Love is unconditional ---but His last 2 Covenants are Conditional -----in the Mosaic Covenant it is Conditional -------IF YOU keep the law God will Bless you ----if you disobeyed the law God will cursed you---so the people had a part and God had a part -----

-the New Covenant of Grace is also conditional ------notice the IF YOU ---so only IF YOU do as it says will you be saved ----Conditional -----

Romans 10:9 NIV
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Read full chapte

We are to Rightly Divide the Word ----so if you can rightly divide the Word it can also be Wrongly
Divided ---

This is where the Gift of the discernment of Spirits comes into play --------does what is being said line up with what the Word says or is it opposed to it -------- the Holy Spirit will NEVER veer one from The Truth of the Word ------ so if it goes against the Word of Truth then it is demonic ----

I realise how impactful these words can be, but I've heard others, including Pastor Steven Anderson, say this means the opposite to what you and I seem to believe it clearly says. I've heard to many people state with such conviction that they believe OSAS that I really wonder if I've missed something.
A similar verse is - paraphrasing - "If we sin wilfully after finding the truth, there is no sacrifice for sin left, but a certain expecting of wrath."
May I ask - Do you believe "believe", as in common parlance, is sufficient to become saved, for the present or eternally, or that something else, eg - movement by the Holy Spirit, a "change of heart" is required, as many, many people vehemently assert?

That was a direct quote from the Vines Bible Dictionary translators. Having said that, you are free to disagree.

We disagree, I stand behind the OP.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Forgive, Forgave, Forgiveness

[ A-2,Verb,G5483, charizomai ]
"to bestow a favor unconditionally," is used of the act of "forgiveness," whether Divine, Ephesians 4:32; Colossians 2:13; Colossians 3:13; or human, Luke 7:42-Luke 7:43 (debt); 2 Corinthians 2:7, 2 Corinthians 2:10; 2 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:32 (1st mention). Paul uses this word frequently, but No. 1 only, in Romans 4:7, in this sense of the word. See DELIVER.
Source link: https://studybible.info/vines/Forgive, Forgave, Forgiveness

(MY NOTE: The OP cites Eph 4:32 & Col 3:13. I trust Vine's definition (& the KJ Bible dictionary I cited link provided), you're free to trust whatever you believe as well. FD

And you are free to disagree with the Scripture --------that is your free choice

Hello,
Many cling to certain verses like the Heb 6:4 verse you cited. You are free to promote your heart, as I am Mine.

I'm replying with some background, scripture & a question as well.

1st some Bible dictionary background"

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: SEAL -
definition English "seal" = Greek "sphragis" context as a Noun - Strongs ref #4973
(a) "the seal of the living God," an emblem of "ownership & security" the persons to be "sealed" being "secured from destruction & marked for reward"

English "seal" = Greek "sphragizo" context as a verb - Strongs ref #4972
(d) ownership and security, three indications are conveyed in Ephesians 1:13 , in the metaphor of the "sealing" of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing (i.e., at the time of their regeneration, not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed," "after that ye believed;" the aorist (TENSE) participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith); the idea of destination is stressed by the phrase "the Holy Spirit of promise" (see also Ephesians 1:14 ); so Ephesians 4:30 , "ye were sealed unto the day of redemption;"
Source link: https://studybible.info/vines/Seal (Noun and Verb)

Vines Expository Dictionary: definition - Earnest
"arrabon", noun, Strongs ref #728
originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5, Eph 1:14, 4:30, 2 Timothy 1:14. particularly of their eternal inheritance.
Source link: https://studybible.info/vines/Earnest (Noun)

My question is what about these verses that clearly support eternal salvation?

2 Tim 1:14 Refers to the Holy Spirit as a Guard & Deposit.

2 Cor 5:5, Eph 1:14 & 2 Cor 1:22. Refer to the Holy Spirit as "the earnest" = Pledge or Promise.

Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & Eph 4:30 Refer to the Holy Spirit as a Seal.

2 Tim 1:14 The Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you
(MY NOTE: The Holy Spirit dwelling within us. Is God's deposit & guards us until the day of redemption)

2 Cor 5:5 God, who also hath given unto us the "earnest" of the Spirit
(MY NOTE: God's Holy Spirit dwelling within us is the earnest. = pledge/promise)

2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also "sealed us" & "given the earnest" of the Holy Spirit in our hearts
(MY NOTE: God has placed His Holy Spirit in the believer's heart. As a pledge & a SEAL until the soon coming day of our redemption)

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(MY NOTE: You heard about Christ's finished sin redemptive payment & resurrection. When you believed/trusted, Christ sealed/baptized you with His eternally sealing Holy Spirit).

Eph1:14 Which is the "earnest" of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
(MY NOTE: The Holy Spirit by which Christ baptizes/seals & indwells us. Is the earnest = a down payment, a pledge, a promise, a guarantee)

Eph 4:30 grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "sealed" unto the day of redemption
(MY NOTE: SEALEDED! With God's Holy Spirit. It's a pledge, promise, guard & guarantee that Christ will come for us)

1 Jn 5:13 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
(MY NOTE: John writes: that you may know ""PRESENT TENSE"" that you have eternal life)

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
(MY NOTE: God doesn't go back on His Word or Promises)

I can post many, many more verses that speak of the believer's secure salvation.

Finally:
I will shortly post a parsing of Heb 6:4. To hopefully help others that struggle (I know I did for quite a while) with this verse. Best wishes, FD

It's your interpretation of scripture I disagree with. Peace, FD

No ? Then you have contradicted everything you said, and has made everything to depend on the act of man, his believing act. Thats conditional salvation.

With the information given, it is really insufficient to know if this man was ever a Christian or not. If believing were simply acknowledging the facts, then the Devil would also be saved. But justification means realizing my need (that I am a sinner) and then believing in the death and resurrection of Christ - it is more a believing into than just a believing on . . .

Nevertheless, the initial point-in-time event, as important and critical as it is, is not what determines this man's destiny. Was he a believer in Jesus Christ when he took his last breath, or was he an unbeliever? Believers who possess the Holy Spirit go to heaven and unbelievers suffer the eternal wrath of God. The story would make it sound as if he died without faith in God, but I cannot be the judge: I will let the judging to God.

As you can probably tell from my answer I do not hold to OSAS. I believe salvation is always based on one's belief in Jesus Christ rather than being based on a one time event. OSAS usually says that a point in time when one first believes all of the person's, past, present, and future sins are forgiven. I believe that when a person initially believes all of the person's past sins are forgiven. From that point on his/her life all sins committed are forgiven at the exact moment they are committed. This is an eternal promise for the one who is believing in Jesus Christ. But if he no longer believes, then there is no Scripture that promises forgiveness for the person who is not believing in Jesus Christ.

No contradiction, there are pre-conditions to salvation:

1) Acknowledge there is a creator God & you have sinned against His sovereign reign & deserve heavens wage/DEATH (Rom 6:23).

2) That we're in need of rescue & the Father sent His Son to rescue you. Right here you repent from unbelief to belief. When you confess you sins. Trusting Christ as Lord & Savior & believing He died for your sins & was raised from the dead.

Once Christ baptizes you with His salvation sealing Holy Spirit. It's a forever done deal!

Christ is the Savior & He preserves the believer not man.

Ps 37:28 For the Lord loves justice And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
(MY NOTE: The Lord doesn't forsake His saints/believers but PRESERVES them FOREVER!)

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(MY NOTE: Christ obtained ETERNAL REDEMPTION for all believers)

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
(MY NOTE: Christ PERFECTED FOREVER all believers He has sanctified)

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
(MY NOTE: This new sin management blood covenant is EVERLASTING! Not just 1 year or until the next time to stumble or fall/sin)

Believer's sins are forgiven & washed away via an EVERLASTING COVENANT! Peace, FD

All I did was post the Scripture -----and it says IF YOU -----I didn't say that ----the IF YOU gives a condition -----you can agree with who ever you like ----but IF YOU DON"T do what the scripture says your are not Saved and your still a Sinner ------you don't go to hell for your sins now----you go to hell for Rejecting Jesus who paid the price for your sins ------and if you reject Jesus then you Reject the Father and your SOL for heaven as the 2 are one ------

What is the ancient Greek word for if?
Conditional clauses in Ancient Greek are clauses which start with εἰ (ei) "if"

Your not free of sin till you accept Jesus in your heart ------

Jesus came to fulfill the law:
Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(MY NOTE: Jesus sin atoning death & resurrection FULFILLED heavens law requirement for sin.)

1 Jn 3:4 Sin is a transgression of the Law:
Ok, we've all have broken God's law. No one can say he is not a sinner until some means is provided (not to take away the law) but to remove the sin, which is the transgression of the law.

Faith placed in Jesus' sin atoning death & resurrection takes away/removes ALL our sin. Once our sins have been removed, there is no transgression of the law.

1 Cor 15
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(MY NOTE: Jesus blotted out the sin ordinances for every believer invoked in Mosaic law & nailed them to His cross [Col 2:14]

Jesus sin atoning payment is found in His death (sins required wage PAID), burial (proof Jesus died) & resurrection (Fathers receipt, sins payment received & accepted).

Sins payment is seized/accessed via FAITH:

Rom 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Eph 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

To be clear, neither in this post, nor at any other (I've placed 100's). Have I ever advocated ungodly living or claimed one can sin with impunity.

Nor have I ever said sin doesn't have consequence.

I've said we access righteousness, justification, salvation through faith (Rom 5:1-2) & not thru works (Eph 2:9), obedience, repentance etc.

Sin can bring consequence that may manifest itself, in many different ways. A health issue, a broken relationship, disease, lost rewards earned etc.

A believer's sin will not result in the loss of salvation. I'll provide scripture (1 Cor 3 below) that support my position/belief. BTW, Unbelief is the only unforgivable sin, that can't be cleansed by the blood of Christ.

1 Cor 3:
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
(MY NOTE: Rewards are given based on work done in Christ's name. Even a drink of water given is His name will receive a reward (Matt 10:42, Mk 9:41 )

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(MY NOTE: Gold & silver = Good works done in Christ's name. Hay, wood & stubble = no works, selfish works, even bad works)

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(MY NOTE: Every work good & bad will be tested)

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(MY NOTE: Good works done in Christ's name will receive a reward)

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(MY NOTE: Hay, wood & stubble deeds will burn-up, bringing shame & loss = "Of Rewards". Not the loss of one's salvation)

Rereading verse 15: he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved.

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Christ bought us & ALL our sins for a price, His sinless life. He imputes our sin onto Himself & His righteousness onto the believer.

Again, we disagree & you are free to believe your heart. In the end we will each, stand before the Lord & answer for what we have said, done & believed. May His grace be multiplied to you & yours. FD