A Few of the Scriptures that Make me Post-Millennial

I actually cannot figure out what you think. I've found your writings rather confusing. As to the early church beliefs, I still must stick to the Scriptures. Pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib mean nothing to me because I find Matt. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21 are describing the tribulation leading up to 70 AD. The arguments over the tribulation I find baseless as I also reject the idea of a "rapture". I find the word "rapture" three times in the REB and once in the Weymouth, but having nothing at all to do with the second coming.

Spending the first 30 years of my life in dispensationalism I can tell you that what I quoted in the clear statements is denied by dispensationalists. Dispensationalists are waiting for Jesus to be king on the throne and reigning in some future 1000 year kingdom in Israel and deny that Christ is king and reigns now.

Dispensationalists only embrace that few will be saved when the other passage expands that to include Gentiles which means many more. Dispensationalists, and the Amils I've encountered, do not believe the gospel will transform life on earth to a golden age but are pessimists.

The prophecy in Isaiah 9:6, 7 reads "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end" and that was flat out denied to happen by dispensationalists, at least those I've listened to and read after.

Dispensationalism, and to some extent as I understand amils, is very pessimistic and does not attribute power to the gospel to change society and the world. I do not think that at the last day, there will be more in hell than in heaven! Satan is not more powerful than God!

I'll give you an example of how dispensationalists deal with Scriptures that contradict their teaching. The MacArthur Study Bible using the NASB reads as follows:

NASB95 Josh. 21:43-45 "So the Lord gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they possessed it and lived in it. And the Lord gave them rest on every side, according to all that He had sworn to their fathers, and no one of all their enemies stood before them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hand. 45 Not one of the good promises which the Lord had made to the house of Israel failed; all came to pass."

As typical with dispensationalists, they contradict the word of God, as MacArthur's note reads:

"But God's people failed to exercise their responsibility and possess their land to the full degree in various areas."

MacArthur ignores making a comment on the following 2 chapters later:

NASB95 Josh. 23:14 “Now behold, today I am going the way of all the earth, and you know in all your hearts and in all your souls that not one word of all the good words which the Lord your God spoke concerning you has failed; all have been fulfilled for you, not one of them has failed."

I actually cannot figure out what you think. I've found your writings rather confusing. As to the early church beliefs, I still must stick to the Scriptures. Pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib mean nothing to me because I find Matt. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21 are describing the tribulation leading up to 70 AD. The arguments over the tribulation I find baseless as I also reject the idea of a "rapture". I find the word "rapture" three times in the REB and once in the Weymouth, but having nothing at all to do with the second coming.

Except that you have simply taken various Scriptures and cobbled together your faulty understanding of the Second Coming of Christ.

So let's be clear about Post-Millennialism first. According to Theopedia:
.The postmillennialist believes that the millennium is an era (not necessarily a literal thousand years) during which Christ will reign over the earth, not from a literal and earthly throne, but through the gradual increase of the Gospel and its power to change lives. After this gradual Christianization of the world, Christ will return and immediately usher the church into their eternal state after judging the wicked. This is called postmillennialism because, by its view, Christ will return after the millennium.",

Now Revelation 19 and 20 sequentially and thoroughly refute this nonsense. So where is your "natural understanding" of Scripture? We are required to take Scripture in its plain literal and chronological sense (unless a metaphor is involved).

I'm not pre-trib. I suppose I see things the way some dispensationalists do, but I don't agree with basing doctrine on an arbitrary division of historical periods that men came up with, so maybe that makes me not a dispensationalist.

That being said, can you show me one quote from a dispensationalists that says that Jesus is not reigning and ruling right now at the right hand of the Father. Why would Jesus' reigning and ruling at the right of the Father now mean there is no future 1000 year kingdom?

Look at this conversation in Acts 2,
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

I have read commentary and even once heard it from the pulpit (which I discussed with the speaker later) the idea that this shows that the apostles had no clue. Some commentators think they know eschatology better than the apostles after Jesus had already opened up their minds to understand the scriptures after His resurrection as we read in Luke.

Jesus did not rebuke the disciplines for slowness of heart for thinking that He would restore the kingdom to Israel. Rather, He encourages them in their opinion by telling them it was not for them to know the times or seasons which the Father had put in His own power. This implies that there is a time or season for the restoration of the kingdom to Israel.



There will be a golden age after Christ returns. Right now, we are in a battle zone fighting principalities and powers. The Messiah has received the nations for his inheritance, and we are fighting, the word of God as our weapon, in this battle, as Christ subdues his enemies. The war ends when death is destroyed. That hasn't happened yet.



So are you saying there is no ebb and flow of the battle here? What do you do with 'real life' problems. Maybe 80 ago or so, the US and Europe had better sexual morals. Divorce was rare. There was some fornication and prostitution, but fornication wasn't so wide spread. Even people who weren't that religious might have some fear of God about sexual immorality. Abortions were not wide spread.

These social issues are big moral concerns for a lot of Christians. I don't know about post-mil. I know some of the Puritan/Separatist churches ended up going ultra left wing, and historically some of them were post mil, so I don't know if post-mil tends to align with ultra left wing on social issues. So you can choose other social issues. Five hundred years ago or so there was little slavery in European countries that professed the slave trade, then this big explosion of the slave trade.

Another big issue is communism. Look at Russia and Germany in the 1700's, for example, and how many people professed Christianity. But then the Communists took over and atheism was rampant. I recently saw a map of percentage of people who have no religion in Germany and the eastern half was dark gray or nearly black indicating a high percentage of atheists.

Isn't this a kind of reversal socially, religious, etc. Does Christ's government increasing mean that there will not be times of increase of wickedness upon the earth in your opinion? How do you handle these 'real life' problems with your interpretation?



You jump to this crazy, blasphemous sounding conclusion. If people get more evil, that does not mean that Satan is more powerful than God. You should consider that you do not know his plan. If everything is not getting consistently more pleasant, godly, and nice, are you going to think Satan is defeating God? Would you have told that to Christians in Russia or East Germany when the Communists took over and they saw a generation being raised as atheists?

Christ asked when the Son of Man returns, will He find faith on earth.



John Macarthur is not the kind of person I encourage people to listen to because he is rather extreme with his cessationism and I don't agree with his eschatology, but I have seen some of his commentary and it is not all bad.



I think the issue here is you see contradictions where there are none, and do not make fine distinctions.

God's word did not fail, but Israel did not fully fulfill it's responsibility.

Look at these words in Judges 2.

2 Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you. 2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. Why have you done this? 3 Therefore I also said, ‘I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your side, and their gods shall be a snare to you.’ ”

This is not a failure of God's word. It demonstrates a failure of Israel to obey it.

first of all, from 63 AD to 70 AD Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the end come. was never fulfilled.

secondly, 1 million Jews dead and Jerusalem sacked doesn't compare to the Destruction of Noah's Flood, nor Hitler's 6 Million Jews starved and baked in ovens.

thirdly, Daniel speaks of a Sacrifice offered that is unholy. that won't take place until the antichrist presents himself as God and then offers the sacrifice.


Grant it, much of the first 12 Verses have to do 70 AD like Temple Destruction, Judeans hiding in the mountains, but Matthew 24:
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: See that no one deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying: I am the Christ, and shall deceive many.

6 But you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that you be not troubled; for they must be, but not yet is the end.

7 For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in various places.
^
have yet to be fulfilled.


then there's denying Roman Archive of Domitian placing John into Patmos, and Domitian [son of Vespasian who led the 70 AD Destruction and brother of Titus who led the Roman military and then became Emperor after Vespasian died] never reigned until 81 AD, some 11 years after 70 AD.

plus there must be a denial of the Church Fathers placing John as Bishop over the Church at Ephesus and John's own Disciples [Polycarp, Mathese, Ignatius, Papias] being placed over the other 6 Churches [7 total listed in Revelation Chapters 2-3]. these 7 Churches were the Churches started by Paul in Asia Minor.


that's a lot of denial happening. one must remember, DENIAL, [is not] a River that runs through Egypt!

"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matt 24:14, KJV)

That was certainly fulfilled when the Apostle Paul was living:

"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." (Rom 1:8, KJV)

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Col 1:23, KJV)

You need to read Josephus and you'll see that those signs did occur leading up to 70 AD and a web site has it placed clearly in chronological order:

http://www.josephus.org/warChronologyIntro.htm

Also,on the following link, scroll down to "Omens of Destruction" -

http://www.josephus.org/causeofDestruct.htm#omens

This is where 'rapture' comes from, being derived from the Latin term for what is rendered 'caught up' in this passage:

I Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do you deny that the saints present at Christ's return will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air?

Just curious, do you also deny the bodily resurrection?

it wasn't preached to China and all of Asia.

so how can you claim it was?

Christianity came to China in A.D. 635, when a Nestorian monk named Aluoben entered the ancient capital of Chang'an -- now modern-day Xi'an -- in central China.

this does not includes the Natives on the Lands of what are now called the America's North/Central/South!

So, the Apostle Paul was in error in Rom. 1:8 and Col. 1:23? For myself, I will believe the Bible.

it wasn't preached to China and all of Asia.

so how can you claim it was?

Christianity came to China in A.D. 635, when a Nestorian monk named Aluoben entered the ancient capital of Chang'an -- now modern-day Xi'an -- in central China.

this does not includes the Natives on the Lands of what are now called the America's North/Central/South!

So, the Apostle Paul was in error in Rom. 1:8 and Col. 1:23? For myself, I will believe the Bible.

"Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him." (Matt 2:2, KJV)

Scofield - "The King" is one of the divine titles Psalms 10:16 and so used in the worship of the Church 1 Timothy 1:17 but Christ is never called "King of the Church." He is "King of the Jews" Matthew 2:2 and Lord and "Head of the Church" Eph 1:22; Eph 1:23 (See Scofield "Matthew 16:18") See Scofield "Hebrews 12:23" ; Matthew 16:18; Hebrews 12:23

The dispensationalism I was taught, as in Scofield was that Christ is not king until he is king of the Jews in the millennium.

I asked a Dispensationalist Pastor how he could project Jesus on the throne into a future millennium when Peter said in Acts 2:30ff he ascended to the throne in the 1st century.

I was informed that was not the throne of David, so that did not apply. Now that is literalism gone berserk!

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." (Acts 1:6-7, KJV)

You are reading into that text from your own mind. Jesus in v7 did not refer to restoring the kingdom to Israel, you are reading that into it.

Of course there is an ebb and flow to history, 2 steps forward, 1 step back. I too see our state now pretty wicked and society is corrupt to the core.

Then as to other sort of things, heart transplants, boarding a plane in New York and being on the other side of the world in Hong Kong in less than 24 hours?

But that time cannot mean it awaited 2500+ years to be accomplished, which is what dispensationalism teaches. Dispensationalists claim the Jews have never possessed all the land promised to her. That is flatly contradicted by Scripture, such as Neh. 9:23ff

I'm aware from the etymology that "rapture" comes from the Latin. Keep in mind that the Roman Catholic Douay-Rheims translates the Latin into English and it does not use "rapture" in the text you give:

"For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who have slept. For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord." (1Thess 4:15-17, DRC)

There is nothing whatsoever in that text that supports the silly notion as in the movie 'Left Behind". Those saints in the graves rise first and then those of us alive will join them in the clouds to meet Christ.

There is nothing in that passage about Christians being raptured out from among the lost who are resurrected later.

I certainly do believe in the bodily resurrection and general judgment on "the last day". I am not hyper-preterist or full-preterist.

It is his will that I should not lose even one of those he has given me, but should raise them all up on the last day. (John 6:39, REB)

and also judgment

"There is a judge for anyone who rejects me and does not accept my words; the word I have spoken will be his judge on the last day." (John 12:48, REB)

I find the simple, most natural understanding of Scripture the best. I embrace the words of Matthew Poole on 2 Cor. 11:3 - Paul, "was afraid, lest that as the serpent by his subtlety deceived Eve, so some subtle seducers should corrupt them, and so withdraw them from the simplicity of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him." On prophecy, I try not to think or be inventive beyond that which is written, 1 Cor. 4:6.

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." (Rev 5:9-10, KJV)

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." (Isa 9:6-7, KJV)

Speaking to the Jews, Jesus said:
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matt 7:14, KJV)

Speaking of the Gentiles, Jesus said:
"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matt 8:11-12, KJV)

"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." (Mark 1:14-15, KJV)

But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. (Matt 12:28, KJV)

"And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it." (Mark 4:30-32, KJV)

"Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened." (Matt 13:33, KJV)

"For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool." (Acts 2:34-35, KJV)

I find the 1000 years of Revelation 20 to be the period from Acts 2:34-35 until 1 Cor 16:24-27, the time between the 1st and 2nd advents. It is to be understood in the same way as the 1000 in Psa. 50:10; 91:7; 105:8; Isa 30:17; 60:22. The symbolism of Revelation is taken mainly from the OT.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him." (1Cor 15:24-27, KJV)

I understand historic pre-mil and amil views and do not find a reason to go to battle against those brethren about that, but I do shun the convoluted imaginations of man-made prophecy schemes that have failed over and over through the past centuries.