Did Isaiah speak in tongues in Isaiah 28:10

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
795
159
43
#21
Paul said only someone with the Holy Spirit gift of interpretation of tongues could give the meaning
Actually Paul says no such thing - he simply admonishes that at a public setting, if a person wishes to pray aloud in his native language that no one else speaks/understands, to secure a translator such that all may benefit, elsewise keep silent and pray to himself and God.
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
795
159
43
#22
If it was known tongues it would be fairly easy to identify them and find a bilingual translator.
Not as easy a task as you might think. The language of the speaker maybe able to be identified by the audience ("Hey, I think that guy's speaking Gaulish - sounds like something I've heard in my travels"), but finding a translator can be a whole other story.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,255
1,110
113
#23
When a person is born again the receive a new spirit from God. They begin to speak in new tongues, not meaning they spew gibberish, but, rather, meaning that they speak from a new heart, spirit, and perspective. A person who speaks English for example will continue to speak English but he will tell people about the wonderful things of God in English - whereas he used to speak about wordly things only, leaving God out. This verse you mention seems to be saying that because the people mentioned in the verse reject God's gospel, instead they will be given the world's spirit and language to listen to. Since the unsaved do not have God in their hearts, their language does not make sense, and is just jibberish in that respect.
The word states that receiving the Holy Ghost was evidenced by speaking in a tongue not known to the speaker. This is recorded in Acts 2. There is no mention of speaking from a new heart or perspective. Also consider that Paul, in his letter to the Corinthians, references that those who speak in an unknown tongue are actually speaking to God. Again, this negates the idea that those speaking in tongues speak in their own language from a new heart or perspective. Lastly, consider the reality that God takes control of the one thing man cannot tame/control in order to prove He has taken up residence in an individual. (Matt. 19:26, James 3:7-8)

"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:32-33


"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." 1 Cor. 14:2
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#24
Not as easy a task as you might think. The language of the speaker maybe able to be identified by the audience ("Hey, I think that guy's speaking Gaulish - sounds like something I've heard in my travels"), but finding a translator can be a whole other story.
After over 20 years? Paul traveled a lot. But there is no indication that he knew what language was being spoken when he spoke in tongues more than them all and yet his understanding was unfruitful. No one in over 20 years could identify what language. Because it wasn't a known language. Just like today.
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#25
Actually Paul says no such thing - he simply admonishes that at a public setting, if a person wishes to pray aloud in his native language that no one else speaks/understands, to secure a translator such that all may benefit, elsewise keep silent and pray to himself and God.
I will let you research that and see if you can find any biblical support from the rules of hermeneutics. I think you will discover that you cannot support that interpretation from the Greek, or the English.
 

Bob-Carabbio

Well-known member
Jun 24, 2020
1,618
810
113
#26
What if this was a demonstration of speaking in tongues?
It isn't. it's a prophesy of a captivity under the Assyrians, and a description of the "Stammering tongue" they spoke.
Nothing to do with "tongues" at all.
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#28
It isn't. it's a prophesy of a captivity under the Assyrians, and a description of the "Stammering tongue" they spoke.
Nothing to do with "tongues" at all.
Are you familiar with 1 Cor 14 :21,22 the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” 22Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers,

We know that Paul sees it as prophetic of speaking in tongues that was not my question. I was wondering more about the translation about "line upon line"

It's a pretty deep topic. I doubt many will understand what I am talking about.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#29
This is not gibberish.
Definitely can agree with that statement.

2 Timothy 3:16

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”


-
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,630
5,898
113
#30
11 So, the Lord will speak to his people in strange sounds

and foreign languages.+ 12He promised you perfect peace and rest,

but you refused to listen. 13Now his message to you will be senseless sound

after senseless sound.+ (CSB)

What many English translations say is something like "line upon line, precept upon precept" is actually something that scholars think is gibberish or baby talk.
(ṣaw lāṣāw ṣaw lāṣāw qaw lāqāw qaw lāqāw zeʿêr šām zeʿêr šām),

So instead of .....
10“Law after law, law after law, line after line, line after line, a little here, a little there.”A

11For he will speak to this people

with stammering speech

and in a foreign language.a

What if it is saying.....

10 ṣaw lāṣāw ṣaw lāṣāw qaw lāqāw qaw lāqāw zeʿêr šām zeʿêr šām,
11 For he will speak to this people


with stammering speech

and in a foreign language.a

If this is the case, how would this change the minds of those who mock modern tongues and call it baby talk and gibberish and therefore cannot be the real thing? And yet it turns out that this is exactly what the scholars think Isaiah did here.

Many commentators have been puzzled by v. 10 and have wrestled to make sense of the Hebrew. The truth seems to be, as the NIV margin suggests, that it is not meant to make sense. Isaiah’s words have hardly penetrated the alcohol-impregnated atmosphere that surrounds his hearers. What they have picked up are simply stray syllables (ṣaw lāṣāw ṣaw lāṣāw qaw lāqāw qaw lāqāw zeʿêr šām zeʿêr šām), most of them repeated, like the baby talk that delights the child but insults an adult. They mouth this gibberish back at the prophet.

Grogan, Rev. Geoffrey W.. Isaiah (The Expositor's Bible Commentary) (Kindle Locations 7584-7588). Zondervan Academic.

Now I am not saying that Isaiah did speak in tongues here. But whatever is going on here I don't think it has anything to do with how we tell people we are going to study the bible "line upon line, precept upon precept" I don't think this is what Isaiah was trying to communicate.

What if this was a demonstration of speaking in tongues? Is it possible? Dig into this before you dismiss it out of hand. It turns out that the translators have a difficult time determining what these syllables are supposed to mean.
they had for generations been given his word and rejecting it twisting it refusing to hear it so he poured out a spirit of confusion and sleep and blindness on tbier mind and heart made tbier preaching senseless and showed thier judgement to be false against his

because of their rebellion for generations he brought the curses to Pass one was a spirit of confusion and ignorance to understand the word because they didn’t embrace it when he was with them
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#31
It's a pretty deep topic.
That is why I prefer to read and study the Bible itself rather than men's weird ideas and conjectures about the Bible. Nothing is complicated when the Spirit is at my side.

Whatever tongues may be in any given place, time, or situation, it always serves a purpose.
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#32
That is why I prefer to read and study the Bible itself rather than men's weird ideas and conjectures about the Bible. Nothing is complicated when the Spirit is at my side.
.
Of course. But studying the bible itself in the purest form in order to hear what the Holy Spirit intended will always be studying what the writers who were inspired wrote with their own hands in their own language and what they were intending to communicate before someone translates it into another language.

And in this case it appears that Isaiah wrote something to the effect of
saw lasaw sal lasaw qaw laqaw qaw laqaw ze er sam ze er sam

Of course that is not the Hebrew characters that he wrote, and I don't know how to do that without a picture of the text. Which I will probably find by the time I am done researching this.

So my efforts to learn what the Holy Spirit intended is always to go to the original text. And in this case I have to wonder if any of the English translations were correct with "line upon line..." etc. Was Isaiah trying to describe sounds that made no sense as mimicking foreign language or did he really intend to say "line upon line, etc."

That is the first question. Once I have answered that one, I can then consider what the Holy Spirit is saying.

But either way, the whole "Study the Bible line upon line precept upon precept to learn doctrine" does not seem to be what Isaiah is saying here as it is so often taught. If people want to insist that it is, that is on them. I seek truth. I can't just steam roll over a bad interpretation like it's ok to go with it even though I have a "check" inside that I believe is from the Spirit telling me "don't teach it that way."
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#33
they had for generations been given his word and rejecting it twisting it refusing to hear it so he poured out a spirit of confusion and sleep and blindness on tbier mind and heart made tbier preaching senseless and showed thier judgement to be false against his

because of their rebellion for generations he brought the curses to Pass one was a spirit of confusion and ignorance to understand the word because they didn’t embrace it when he was with them
Yes, I believe this is the same kind of message in this text.
Even if someone insists that it really should be translated "Line upon line, precept upon precept" The intended message based on the context would be that this is a judgment, they would not understand. The Word would be a list of dos and donts but they would never get the point. Darkness while claiming to follow the Law. This might be the meaning.
It certainly is not saying this is the way we ought to live for God or study the bible.
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
1,330
113
#34
And in this case it appears that Isaiah wrote something to the effect of
saw lasaw sal lasaw qaw laqaw qaw laqaw ze er sam ze er sam
ראה לאסו סאל לאסאו קוו לקוו קוו לקוו זי ער סאם זי ער סאם

Tzav la-tzav, tzav la-tzav, kav la-kav, kav la-kav z‘eir sham, z‘eir sham

צ"ב לצ"ב, "צו"ל לצ"ב, "קו"ל, "קו"ל"

Indeed, they will hear meaningless gibberish, senseless babbling, a syllable here, a syllable there.
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
1,330
113
#35
ראה לאסו סאל לאסאו קוו לקוו קוו לקוו זי ער סאם זי ער סאם

Tzav la-tzav, tzav la-tzav, kav la-kav, kav la-kav z‘eir sham, z‘eir sham

צ"ב לצ"ב, "צו"ל לצ"ב, "קו"ל, "קו"ל"

Indeed, they will hear meaningless gibberish, senseless babbling, a syllable here, a syllable there.
now ADD Verse 11 to this ^

11 For with stammering lips and with a strange tongue shall it be spoken to this people;
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
1,330
113
#36
when we put Verse 10 and 11 together =
ראה לאסו סאל לאסאו קוו לקוו קוו לקוו זי ער סאם זי ער סאם

Tzav la-tzav, tzav la-tzav, kav la-kav, kav la-kav z‘eir sham, z‘eir sham

צ"ב לצ"ב, "צו"ל לצ"ב, "קו"ל, "קו"ל"

Indeed, they will hear meaningless gibberish, senseless babbling, a syllable here, a syllable there.

+

11 For with stammering lips and with a strange tongue shall it be spoken to this people;


...
we get a very confused unbeliever who claims to be a linguistic who has no idea what the Gift of Tongues is all about nor the reason for it!
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
1,330
113
#37
A submission from Minnesota, U.S. says the name [[((Kavik))]] means "Wolverine or demon dog"

Native Americans called the wolverine, before Science named it wolverine, [[Demon Dog]]!
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
1,330
113
#38
a real linguistic would know this because they study phonetics and the history of any particular people's language.

nice name!

Demon Dog!
 

Bob-Carabbio

Well-known member
Jun 24, 2020
1,618
810
113
#39
I was wondering more about the translation about "line upon line".
It talks of Restoration of what;s been LOST. The Jews had lost pretty much ALL their understanding of God, and had substituted their OWN phony religious system in its place.

And the same thing is happening in the NEW Testament. The Catholic world religious systems, pretty much lost the truth of Jesus' Sacrifice, an salvation by FAITH, not works, and substituted their own PAGAN theologies in place of Biblical truth.

Then the reformation where FIRST "Salvation by FAITH" was restored then forward through the centuries when the Biblical truths are being restored "line upon line" and Precept upon precept.

What we call the "Charismatis outpouring" is the latest "Precept" added. but there's a way to go yet before we arrive at Eph 4:13.
 

Amanuensis

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2021
1,457
460
83
#40
It talks of Restoration of what;s been LOST. The Jews had lost pretty much ALL their understanding of God, and had substituted their OWN phony religious system in its place.

And the same thing is happening in the NEW Testament. The Catholic world religious systems, pretty much lost the truth of Jesus' Sacrifice, an salvation by FAITH, not works, and substituted their own PAGAN theologies in place of Biblical truth.

Then the reformation where FIRST "Salvation by FAITH" was restored then forward through the centuries when the Biblical truths are being restored "line upon line" and Precept upon precept.

What we call the "Charismatis outpouring" is the latest "Precept" added. but there's a way to go yet before we arrive at Eph 4:13.
There is plenty of truth that God has been helping His true remnant restore the the truths that were known in the early church after the dark ages since the days of reformation and there is still more to restore. However I don't see the "line upon line" reference, (even it were the correct translation of the Hebrew that was actually written) to be a positive statement. It is not a "good thing" for them to hear "line upon line, precept upon precept" because it results in them falling backwards and being snared and judged. Not something one would wish upon other believers or tell them this is what we want to have happen to us.

I think we probably need to back away from the popular method of teaching it as the description of what we experience when we grow in the knowledge of the word or have our minds renewed by the scriptures inspired by the Spirit. That is a real thing that we can and should talk about but we probably should not be using this text to support that process.

It's not something I would argue with someone about, I just long to get to the intended message of Isaiah here because I sense in my spirit that it is a great message worth knowing and preaching if one can grasp it.

And if it is an example of gibberish it then also warns in advance that people would call speaking in tongues gibberish, which is what they do today. What an amazing thing if this is what Isaiah was saying.

"I will speak to them in other tongues, (Pentecost and 1 Cor 14) and they will say it is gibberish and be given over to their skepticism even though I did such an awesome thing for them." :unsure:

I am probably wrong, but I can't shake it. I might be right.