in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb 'A SPECIFIC DURATION OF TIME'

I can't seem to get this point acknowledged in the other thread, so I thought I would bring it to light here. What is written here and what we are told about the devil are 2 different things but somehow that keeps getting missed.

THIS IS A SPECIFIC TIME. IT HAS A BEGINNING, IT HAS AN END

AND IT SHOULD BE WITHOUT CONTESTATION

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; And HE shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

These who worship the BEAST, THE DEVIL, SATAN, THE DRAGON, THE DECEIVER, THE SERPENT and break the FIRST commandment. Can a man do anything worse than that? I only put that forth from the start to explain why I will not be engaging in any discussion of whether or not this may or may not apply to others. Those who will wish to go off in that direction please, start another thread.


Would God have all Holy Angels and the Lamb remain present at the lake of fire for all eternity? NO. They have LIFE to be living, not spending their time watching their brothers and sisters in torment for ever and ever. WHAT kind of a plan would that be? Doesn't make sense on any level.

I believe this to be a witness to that fact
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.



Another witness
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.



A third witness negating ETERNAL
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



Must be there to be served
Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:



2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Greek who [the] penalty will suffer of destruction eternal, AWAY FROM [the] presence of the Lord and FROM the glory of the power of Him


punished - the execution of the judgment

the judgment - death
3639 olethros
Strong's Concordance
olethros: destruction, death


the duration - length of time
166 aiónios
Strong's Concordance
aiónios: agelong, eternal


those present - who will see
1799 enópios
Strong's Concordance
enópios: in sight of, before



1. The penalty OF ETERNAL DESTRUCTION will be AWAY from the presence of the Lord WHERE IS GOD? everywhere. So LOF? nowhere
2. The torment of the execution of the judgment will be witnessed by the Lamb and Holy angels
3. They will only have A PART, not an eternal ongoing constant without end torment.
4. The LOF, which is of this earth and heavens will pass away as God will make all things new. It will be of the FORMER when the NEW is come in.
5. We can be sure because there will be no more curse

...and then comes Eternity...

1 Thessalonians 4:17

“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what this, has to do with that. Could you elaborate a bit?

Revelation 20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Time to start reading the Bible, my friend.

Hmmmm... I'll do what I can. Don't give up.

Let's see what you've been given...

Eternal life with my Lord and Savior, dear friend!

Absolutely. But what about the 'in the presence...' and the connection with 1 Thess 4:17?

The smoke of their torment rising in the distance will be a constant reminder that God's truth reigns and God had the last word.

It causes joy and praise in the hearts of the holy saints.

Pay attention to the way Revelation keeps erupting in praises over the just judgments of God and align your mind with Gods.

Right now it is a bit of a challenge for those who are still carnal. The more one surrenders to Christ the more they will understand why this punishment in the eternal realm for the wicked is a praise worthy thing to consider.

No tears will be shed by the glorified saints over the sight of the smoke of their torment rising forever and ever. It will cause eruptions of praise like what you read in Revelation.

The verses are brief and concise because the message was not intended to satisfy every question about the nature of eternal fire, or what the Lake of Fire looks like, or what molecules are in the smoke of their torment, but instead it is the overarching theological point about the just judgment of God that is being communicated.

It is a declaration that for all eternity there will be some observable place of torment for the wicked declaring that God had the last word.

For example: Sodomites who tried to teach children to explore being homosexual because it was not a sin and that their parents and pastors were wrong will still be in torment a billion years from now for doing that.

It would be better for them if they had tied a millstone around their necks and jumped into the sea before they tempted those children to sin but they rejected those warnings from preachers and did it anyway.
Now they will be in torment and the holy and righteous will rejoice with God that He had the last word. And their praises to God over this will never end.

Are you saying that at the beginning of the Lords Day

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God

that those having just experienced

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Revelation 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Babylon fallen

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

and those who TOOK the mark of the beast

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

will suffer the torment of the GREAT TRIBULATION, the WRATH OF GOD, come upon them when the vials are poured out,
and the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hide themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains and say to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb when He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God, the harvest of the tares gathered and burned, the mighty men become food for all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven who gather unto the supper of the great God, before the remnant are slain with the sword of him,

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

are dead in Christ WHO shall rise first

and then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord to rule and reign with Him for 1000 years as priests

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

and it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LAKE OF FIRE at the end?

I'll have to pray upon that, but I could see that as a possibility and possibly a probability. Since it doesn't change the LOF being the 2nd death, doesn't change it from being of a specific amount time and only changes the when of it and now that you mention it, it doesn't say lake of fire, does it? so far I see no conflict but again, I have to pray.

Now, would that have been so hard to say?

GODs people are going to a place TO WONDERFUL for words to describe. THESE are those WHO CHOOSE LIFE. They WANT to be there. They LOVE GOD, not because they can see what happens to those who don't.

How could God be sure that they freely made the choice if the lake of fire was the only other option? Surround yourself with those who are there JUST TO ESCAPE eternal torture? HOW COMFORTABLE WOULD THAT BE? Might as well just make a bunch of robots with no true feelings at all.

The only BUMMER to be found would be this lake of fire to REMIND everyone of the EVIL. I don't know about you but I DON'T even like the thought of anyone being tortured.


God is just. And eternal torment would require same amount of sin. These guy made a bad choices. These guys loved themselves more than they loved GOD. These guys loved the ways of the world. The words of God didn't bring them to faith. These guys were evil beasts. Yet they weren't all that different than we were at one time.


Romans 12:19 never yourselves avenging beloved, instead give place to wrath, it has been written for "Mine [is] vengeance, I will repay says [the] Lord"

NOT A SINGLE HINT OF TORTURE, LET ALONE ETERNAL TORTURE. Wouldn't that make THIS INTO A LIE?

avenging
1556. ekdikeó
Strong's Concordance
ekdikeó: to vindicate, to avenge
Original Word: ἐκδικέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ekdikeó
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-dik-eh'-o)
Definition: to vindicate, to avenge
Usage: I give justice over, defend, avenge, vindicate.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1556 ekdikéō – to dispense justice, carrying a judgment completely through, i.e. with all that is appropriate to it. See 1557 (ekdikēsis).


WRATH
3709. orgé
Strong's Concordance
orgé: impulse, wrath
Original Word: ὀργή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: orgé
Phonetic Spelling: (or-gay')
Definition: impulse, wrath
Usage: anger, wrath, passion; punishment, vengeance.


vengeance
1557. ekdikésis ►
Strong's Concordance
ekdikésis: vengeance, vindication
Original Word: ἐκδίκησις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ekdikésis
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-dik'-ay-sis)
Definition: vengeance, vindication
Usage: (a) a defense, avenging, vindication, vengeance, (b) full (complete) punishment.
HELPS Word-studies
1557 ekdíkēsis (a feminine noun derived from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 1349 /díkē, "justice, judge") – properly, judgment which fully executes the core-values (standards) of the particular judge, i.e. extending from the inner-person of the judge to its out-come (outcome).


i will repay
467. antapodidómi ►
Strong's Concordance
antapodidómi: to give back as an equivalent, recompense
Original Word: ἀνταποδίδωμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: antapodidómi
Phonetic Spelling: (an-tap-od-ee'-do-mee)
Definition: to give back as an equivalent, recompense
Usage: I give in return, recompense.
HELPS Word-studies
467 antapodídōmi (from 473 /antí, "corresponding back" and 591 /apodídōmi, "give") – properly, "pay-back," recompense; return, as an equivalence, i.e. what is equitable (proportional, "fitting").


WHAT can a MAN do that would WARRANT eternal torture? NOTHING



HERE IS ARE A COUPLE EXAMPLES OF THE GOD THAT I KNOW AND LOVE

Proverbs 24:13 My son, eat thou honey, because it is good; and the honeycomb, which is sweet to thy taste:

Proverbs 24:14 So shall the knowledge of wisdom be unto thy soul: when thou hast found it, then there shall be a reward, and thy expectation shall not be cut off.

Proverbs 24:15 Lay not wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous; spoil not his resting place:

Proverbs 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Proverbs 24:17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:

Proverbs 24:18 Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.

Proverbs 24:19 Fret not thyself because of evil men, neither be thou envious at the wicked:

Proverbs 24:20 For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.

NOT JUST IN THIS LIFE BUT IN THE NEXT ONE ALSO.




Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

Deuteronomy 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.

Deuteronomy 32:37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted,

Deuteronomy 32:38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, and be your protection.

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

Deuteronomy 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

Deuteronomy 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.

Deuteronomy 32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.

Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.


2 Thess who [the] penalty will suffer of destruction eternal away from [the] presence of the Lord and from the glory of the power of Him

I WOULD NEED SOMEONE, ANYONE TO SHOW ME THIS WORD TO BE TORTURE AND NOT DEATH, along with how the Lake of FIRE could be AWAY from the presence of the LORD.




3639. olethros ►
Strong's Concordance
olethros: destruction, death
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Definition: destruction, death
Usage: ruin, doom, destruction, death.
HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."


THERE BUT FOR THE GRACE OF GOD GO I.

I've said my peace. Post again if you would like but unless you put forth some COMPELLING SCRIPTURE I am done.

Pay attention to how those in heaven Praise God for pouring out vials of judgment upon the wicked on earth that would not repent.

Rev 16
“You are just in these judgments, O Holy One,
you who are and who were;
6for they have shed the blood of your holy people and your prophets,
and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.”
7And I heard the altar respond:

“Yes, Lord God Almighty,
true and just are your judgments.”

Those who are in heaven say “Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.” as they witness the judgments being poured out on the wicked still on earth and as they see the wicked gnaw their tongues in agony. Rev 16

The vials are poured out upon the wicked while alive on earth, and they gnaw their tongues in agony and the saints from the altar observe it and Praise God about it.

They do so because it is one of God's great Praise worthy attributes that he has reserved judgment to be poured out on the wicked and we can rest assured that they will not escape it. For this we Praise His Holy Name because it vindicates the holy who were killed for their no compromise stance. To say that we should not want to be vindicated is arguing with the plain statements of scripture where it is God who declares that we will be.

In that day we will repeat what those under the altar are saying....

7And I heard the altar respond:

“Yes, Lord God Almighty,
true and just are your judgments.”

When we agree with the just judgments of God and really believe it will happen to the wicked, then we also will preach with heart felt sincere passion to save the lost while they still have the ability to repent.

There is coming a day when they will not repent and yet the holy saints will Praise God that they gnaw their tongues in pain, because they did not repent when they could have. They will praise God that the wicked are given blood to drink. They will Praise God that they gnaw their tongues in agony.

Not being able to agree with Rev 16 and the heart of those who speak from the altar would be a sign that one is not part of that number.

It's a concept that only those who actually hate sin and love righteousness can grasp.

Here is one of the best passages about the theology behind these judgments in Revelation.
2 thess 1

4Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.

5All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

So the constant need to modify the plain meaning of various texts to find a loophole or alternative angle no matter how unlikely and questionable that angle sounds does not alarm you in the least? No red flags in your conscience?

I have NO PROBLEM WITH THE WICKED BEING PUNISHED. No problem with them going to HELL to suffer that punishment. No problem with them being TORMENTED 1000 YEARS.

What I do have a problem with is the LOF being a part of the NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH.

That would mean that SATAN, Hell and DEATH were a part of what has been made NEW. If the FORMER things are PASSED AWAY, the EVIL HAS BEEN COMPLETELY DESTROYED. WE HAVE NO MEMORY OF the Adversary or ANY of the problems he and his kind caused us and OUR GOD.

WHO are we to say WITH THE EXCEPTION OF?


What is written is THE FORMER things are passed away. GOD doesn't give ANY EXCEPTIONS to that statement.


Look at in in CONTEXT, THE TIMING of where it is written It isn't a MISTAKE that the LOF CONCLUDES LORDS DAY


Do you think I would suffer all this abuse if I DIDN'T LOVE my brethren? I don't care if someone says 'it isn't' abust because I KNOW what it feels like, I know what it STIRS UP in me and I know how I must call on the Spirit to help me RISE ABOVE when all of me is seeking to recompense, KNOWING that is the Lords place and not mine....


Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

LOOK AT THE TIMING. LOOK AT WHAT IS WRITTEN and what is not, LOOK AT IT PRECEPT ON PRECEPT....

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;

and there was no more sea. (ever wonder if that is why it is called 'LAKE'?)


Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

HOW CAN WE HAVE HELL AND DEATH AND TORTURE residing in the same place? Isn't that like SWEET AND BITTER WATER coming from the same place?

WHY do we need to be reminded of EVIL? We chose life. We chose love. We chose GOOD AND RIGHT and FAIR. There is no one searching us out to deceive us. We are NO LONGER IN SINFUL FLESH BODIES. We don't need to remember.

Could you imagine? All those souls being tortured for ever so that WE WOULD REMEMBER? You don't think that it would make you sad? You don't think that would bring you sorrow?


Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


REASONS IT IS GONE - IT IS WRITTEN (it is not a conclusion nor a thought)
1. of the old heaven and earth are passed away
2. no more sea
3. no more death
4. former things passed away
5. I make all things new


Reasons we should teach that and not ETERNAL TORTURE

1. death is not torture
2. eternal and for ever are of 'ages'
3. God is a God of mercy
4. re pay is in PROPORTION
5. It ISN'T WRITTEN
6. I take these to heart...


Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

7. I know who wouldn't want me to.

Revelation 20:10

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

.

It alarms me A LOT. BIG RED FLAGS when I see anyone trying to take what is written and give it another meaning by changing, adding or subtracting words or meanings ESPECIALLY when the verse is a simple one.

Classic example. John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

But get into any sort of conversation and every excuse in the book comes out on HOW AND WHY 'THE DEAD' who are resurrected when Christ returns, are in fact those who NEVER DIE.

Apparently Jesus DIDN'T REALLY MEAN 'never die', nor pass through death, nor follow Me after, nor I will come again, and receive you unto myself that where I am, there ye may be also, nor Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. Nor But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen, nor thou sowest not that body that shall be, nor it is raised a spiritual body.


as for here

what is written - the former things are passed away

what is ADDED - EXCEPT FOR THE LOF

BIG RED FLAGS

If the Lake of Fire is not of this physical realm, then it is not part of the former things that have passed away.

You have not made a logical case for including it in the natural realm. I believe it is a spiritual or other worldly thing not subject to the physical laws and physical realities like earth, sun, stars, etc. To include it with those things passing away is not a logical concept.

To say that it is of a "negative" thought and can't be a reality in eternity because it would be "sad" or "negative" is not logical when one has a revelation of the Praise worthiness of God's just judgments on the wicked. But this type of understanding will only be fully grasped post resurrection. I don't think an awareness of a Lake of Fire in eternity is going to dampen the joys of glory.

We don't have to wonder and head scratch because the Bible is clear about the duration of the lake of fire.