in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb 'A SPECIFIC DURATION OF TIME'

it seems you are looking at revelation as linear ? Just curious

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:

for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

…And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1, 4-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the “second death” is part of the second eternal order after the resurrection of the dead.

but I’m not really disagreeing with your post just trying to understand it completely

can I ask are you viewing revelation as one constant
linear story ?

There’s evidence that the lake of fire is on earth. For example, the beast and false prophet were captured alive and thrown into it while they were on the earth. The devil was put in the lake of fire while on the earth. This is all in Revelation so I know you’re quite familiar with it.

The new heavens and new earth will contain only righteousness. No people living forever in the lake of fire cursing God breathlessly day and night forever.

2 Peter 3:10-13
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

More evidence the lake of fire is on earth is Revelation 14:10

Rev. 14:10
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

When Christ returns to earth, He will bring angels with Him.

The lake of fire could be entirely symbolic, which I am not 100% sure about, but it’s worth researching. In Revelation the lake of fire is referred to as the second death, not the thing that actually causes death. That’s how people word things when they want to create symbolism. John obviously worded that carefully.

And how does the devil, an invisible spirit, actually feel pain in literal fire? For the record, magma in the earth isn’t fire. It’s superheated melted rock from extreme pressures inside the earth. So where is the lake of fire even at? The sun isn’t a fire either, fires require oxygen.

There’s even more evidence than this, but I’ll keep this short. Since the lake of fire appears to be on earth and earth gets destroyed, the lake of fire would end as well. No eternal torment then.

There it is.

I think Revelation is the same story told more than once but from different angles and different places aka heaven and earth.

heaven and earth. The invisible realm, the SPIRITUAL ONE has BECOME the visible realm at the beginning of the Lords Day.

Amen me also so can I ask if I were to simplify what you were saying would this come close ?

there are two creations one is going to be judged by flaming fire and destroyed everything if this creation we presently know is doomed to complete destruction

and when that happens , the new world will come forth , nd then the old will be passed away d there will no longer be torment or sorrow or crying or pain forever because the old thkngs have passed away and new things have come ?

your saying the old things have an end right ?

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Is it an actual lake? If it is it is water, then we know there is no sea so it's gone

Is it on the earth? it is passed away

Is it spiritual? then we have a new heaven

Is it judgment of THESE LAST DAYS? then it is of THIS TIME PRESENT

Isaiah 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;

Isaiah 65:3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

Isaiah 65:4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

Isaiah 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

Isaiah 65:6 Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,

Isaiah 65:7 Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

Isaiah 65:8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Isaiah 65:10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.

Isaiah 65:11 But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

Isaiah 65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Isaiah 65:13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:

Isaiah 65:14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

Isaiah 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Isaiah 65:16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

In MY PERSONAL opinion and my personal opinion only,

GOD is going to give the earth a COMPLETE cleansing. FIRE does that. ALL of the ELEMENTS are going to be dissolved. EVERYTHING man has ever made and all that goes along with it, along with all the wisdom flesh man has ever thought up, is going to be burnt UP until it exists no more, 'CREATING' an new earth. The SEA will go back up into the air, surrounding it. That is why there will be no need for sun or moon because GODS light will shine everywhere.


We presently live in a '2 realm' world. Spiritual and Natural. When the spiritual world 'takes over/comes into play' it doesn't NEGATE this one it makes it SUPERNATURAL. We not only see what is here but our eyes see what was once unseen, that is how Jesus and His armies are seen. For heaven to be ON EARTH for the eternal kingdom to reign flesh and blood must be done away with, hence 'the dead' rise and the alive and remaining changed. ALL will be seen. ALL will come to light.

If we take an example from ANGELS we see they have bodies, they eat, they are just like us except they are STRANGE FLESH because they are not 'of the dust of the earth' they are of the heavenly (which if you think about science, isn't all that different but different). Jesus even says like the angels in heaven no taking or giving in marriage.

I'll stop there as I think it answers the question.

There is quite a bit of Scripture that goes along with this, if you want it.

Every single thing that exists IS A LAW OF GOD. The laws of HEAVEN maybe different than the laws of the natural earth we presently live under, but they are all laws none the less and when Jesus comes and all the KINGDOMS of the earth become HIS then HIS laws will rule the earth.


2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

3928. parerchomai ►
Strong's Concordance
parerchomai: to pass by, to come to
Original Word: παρέρχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: parerchomai
Phonetic Spelling: (par-er'-khom-ahee)
Definition: to pass by, to come to
Usage: I pass by, pass away, pass out of sight; I am rendered void, become vain, neglect, disregard.


If we all remained in the 'natural' realm NO ONE would make it through. THE DAY OF THE LORD ALL THE ALIVE AND REMAINING WILL BE CHANGED

The going from our NATURAL world to the SUPERNATUAL WORLD

2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

3089. luó ►
Strong's Concordance
luó: to loose, to release, to dissolve
Original Word: λύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: luó
Phonetic Spelling: (loo'-o)
Definition: to loose, to release, to dissolve
Usage: (a) I loose, untie, release, (b) met: I break, destroy, set at naught, contravene; I break up a meeting, annul.
HELPS Word-studies
3089 lýō – properly, loose (unleash) let go; release (unbind) so something no longer holds together; (figuratively) release what has been held back (like Christ "releasing" the seven seals in the scroll in Revelation).


4747. stoicheion ►
Strong's Concordance
stoicheion: one of a row, hence a letter (of the alphabet), by ext. the elements (of knowledge)
Original Word: στοιχεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: stoicheion
Phonetic Spelling: (stoy-khi'-on)
Definition: one of a row, a letter (of the alphabet), the elements (of knowledge)
Usage: (a) plur: the heavenly bodies, (b) a rudiment, an element, a rudimentary principle, an elementary rule.
HELPS Word-studies
4747 stoixeíon– properly, fundamentals, like with the basic components of a philosophy, structure, etc.; (figuratively) "first principles," like the basic fundamentals of Christianity.

[4747 (stoixeíon) refers to "the rudiments with which mankind . . . were indoctrinated (before the time of Christ), i.e. the elements of religious training or the ceremonial precepts common alike to the worship of Jews and of Gentiles" (J. Thayer).

The RSV however renders stoixeia as "elemental spirits," i.e. spiritual powers or "cosmic spirits" (DNTT, 2, 828). This views 4747 /stoixeíon ("elements") as ancient astral beings associated with the very beginning (make-up) of the earth.]



Is this a repeat of the above on yet another CHANGE?


2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

It is the smoke of their torment that ascendeth up for ever and forever in the presence of God and the Lamb.

.... best not to get morbid over the devil and his destiny.

It may SEEM as if I have all these feeling that GOD doesn't have but

Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

Isaiah 53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors

I have no idea what you are talking about at this point. I thought you were insinuating that the Lake of Fire has an end when the former things pass away.

The scriptures you just posted don't support that idea. What makes you think that the Lake of Fire is part of the old heavens and earth?

Some think it is a burn over, others think it is a complete dissolving.

Elements melting with fervent heat makes me think of the molecules all burned up turning it back into a gaseous substance without form and void. But then I think that the universe (heavens) itself is also removed and not even the galaxies are left. A New heavens and a New earth are of a spiritually heavenly type of new creation and not like this present one.

We'll soon find out.

yes brother I recognize some of what your saying in scripture , and amen that’s all you or I or anyone else here can do is state our belief or opinion or thoughts about a matter none of us are the authority over others just discussing and sharing our thoughts and beliefs I appreciate the good spirit


So a destruction of all things material a cleansing and restoration by fire and reordering of this creation ?

so you are sort of saying they ( heavens and earth ) will be changed , Restored ,Renewed ?


“And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; And the heavens are the works of thine hands:

They shall perish; but thou remainest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, And they shall be changed:

But thou art the same, And thy years shall not fail.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Would you say heaven is new currently and we’re just waiting on the earths restoration ? After the time of it’s judgement finishes and all of Gods people hear the gospel ? Sort of what do you make of this ?

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬ ‭

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

…And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.


…Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:5, 7-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

would you say that’s already happened and e church is who he is making war with on earth ? But heaven is already established and salvstion and the kingdom has come , we’re only waiting for the kingdom to return to earth after judgement day when this one is burned up and all that’s left to see is the thkngs we can’t see now that Jesus spoke forth and promises in e gospel of his kingdom
after the short time satan has to sift mankind’s faith in Christ he’ll come back and then that heavenly kingdom already bekng filled with believers who pass over Jordan will populate the new cleansed earth , israel will be restored to its land at that time , with the chosen of Christ the church both Former jew and gentile beforehand who believed

and the nations the earth will be filled with his glory shining from the heart of every man and woman and child because all had believed. And he will walk amkng us like he did in the gospel and be our God only well all believe and no one will try to kill him or trick him into co dem king himself. Like the flesh did to him

See this part

“And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it:

for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:22-23, 25-26‬ ‭

It doesn’t seem as of day and night will exist which is a result of the sun and moon of this creation the sun in our solar system is like a created example of God the center of everything and source of light and best and life

the moon reflects the light of the sun when it cannot be seen and darkness has fallen.

this process isn’t seeming like it’s still happening and like this earth we depend on the sun for light

but the new creation will depend on the Son for light, and there will be no night no day and night cycle.

“and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:11‬ ‭KJV‬

also yes brother many times heavenly beings , even God manifest in an earthly body and ate food. For instance with Jacob or Abraham.

a spiritual body isnt what the movies teach us it’s glorified it is heavenly and one day will again be manifest in a new earth as material. The new testsment even says sometimes a stranger could be an angel among us

a spiritual body is capable of being translated from earth into the spiritual realm of heaven and bekng translated from heaven to appear on earth among us.

it’s a higher body the flesh is a lower and limited body that can’t be translated into heaven

remember this ?

“and was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭17:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭9:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty…….And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭1:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

They saw for a moment Jesus transfigured into his heavenly form. His spiritual body. But then right after he returns to his physical earthly form which was required for him to live and die as a man.

after he died he was risen in a glorified state able to appear on earths as your saying but also he would disappear and appear later eventually he went up and was transfigured before their eyes

the only time Jesus returns himself after this , Paul sees his heavenly glorified and exceedingly bright form as they did which blinds Paul and calls him to convert and receive his new sight

later he refers to him as “dwelling in unapproachable light “

my point is that like Jesus within us we have this spiritual body also , we’re going to be with Jesus like the man who died on the cross but not on This earth we’re going to be with him in heaven until everything is restored and renewed

all just my own opinion of course like your saying

Isaiah is my favourite book of The Bible. God doesn't feel as much as you do.

He feels things much more deeply than you do. His heart breaks over even one sinner who will not repent.

You seem to be wringing your hands because in God's plan, the damned are not entitled to the same salvation
& blessings as the saved. It's good to plead the case for the unsaved now while there is still a chance for them.

Excellent point. I’m learning so much here.

2537. kainos ►
Strong's Concordance
kainos: new, fresh
Original Word: καινός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: kainos
Phonetic Spelling: (kahee-nos')
Definition: new, fresh
Usage: fresh, new, unused, novel.
HELPS Word-studies
2537 kainós – properly, new in quality (innovation), fresh in development or opportunity – because "not found exactly like this before."


Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.


the word elements in the Greek really needs to be studied as it covers 'everything?' man made. So yes, reordered closer to GODS original creation, but even better.

We have to remember THE CURSE THAT CAME UPON THE EARTH.

Example BEFORE
Genesis 2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

Genesis 2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.


Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Genesis 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.



Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Romans 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.


We are NOT living on the planet GOD created for us to live upon without sin. We are NOT living in the bodies that He created us to live in. WE are living in a 'destroyed state and on a destroyed planet that we are causing further destruction to by our very destroyed nature'. ALL THAT is going to be changed when all evil is cast back out of it. (looking to go deeper? When did Satan rule kingdoms in heaven before the earth was created?)

There is a WAR going on for our souls. Chose life. Look around. Then read what is written and you will see GOD is warning us. He is giving us all the info we need to be saved and to remain so. Satan is doing EVERYTHING that goes against that especially when it comes to words of God.

One example I heard once, 'Jesus the author and finisher of our faith', followed by 'HE DOES IT ALL, WE DON'T DO ANYTHING, it's all done? Did these peoples brains fall out? Things to stupid to believe are preached like it is GODS TRUTH. If that were true, the book would be about 5 pages long and Jesus would never utter things like DON'T BE DECEIVED by any man, would He?

Creation changed when SATAN DECEIVED MANKIND.

4747. stoicheion ►
Strong's Concordance
stoicheion: one of a row, hence a letter (of the alphabet), by ext. the elements (of knowledge)
Original Word: στοιχεῖον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: stoicheion
Phonetic Spelling: (stoy-khi'-on)
Definition: one of a row, a letter (of the alphabet), the elements (of knowledge)
Usage: (a) plur: the heavenly bodies, (b) a rudiment, an element, a rudimentary principle, an elementary rule.
HELPS Word-studies
4747 stoixeíon– properly, fundamentals, like with the basic components of a philosophy, structure, etc.; (figuratively) "first principles," like the basic fundamentals of Christianity.

[4747 (stoixeíon) refers to "the rudiments with which mankind . . . were indoctrinated (before the time of Christ), i.e. the elements of religious training or the ceremonial precepts common alike to the worship of Jews and of Gentiles" (J. Thayer).

The basic thoughts that make up the wisdom of Man. Everything breaks down to it.


Definitely not like this present one but I believe definitely like the one He created before it was yet again somewhat 'destroyed'.

BUT YOU are right, WHO really knows. I always go back to the Jews at the time of Jesus. Had all the words, studied them every day they all got up and taught and discussed and there were no 'translation' problems so none of this word dissection going on AND THEY STILL DIDN'T SEE who was walking amongst them.
Thank God we have been gifted the Holy Spirit!!!

I have not thought about that so I don't know what to think. What do you think about that?
I think we are about up to verse 8. I do not believe todays church is any different that the church that has been persecuted and suffered tribulation all down through the years and I believe that it will be here when Satan is cast out of heaven and so I don't see his time here as those who believe in pre trib do. I believe the 'deaths' , at least MOST of them, will be spiritual in nature, not physical, and 'the church' will be right there believing like the rest of the world, though I also believe there will be those who, along with the two witnesses, will be warning the world that the one they THINK is Christ, isn't, and they will be given up for trial. Quite the run on sentence huh
The Lords Day is a day of vengeance, a day of judgment for the wicked and the deceived, and is the GREAT TRIBULATION such as the world has never seen and never will again. SATAN couldn't accomplish anything like that in a billion years. He is a liar and deceiver and sent to over come. The church will be 'tested' or proved just like those under the law were and they failed and so will the church. Just like the 'dead' will not stand in judgment until AFTER Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years.
I believe the flaming fire that comes when Jesus returns is way different than what takes place when God comes to dwell amongst us.
As I see it, the world is becoming very evil. The good is made evil and evil good. The powers that be are coming together and soon there will be a one world ruling 'party' I see that as 'the beast rising up out of the sea'. The two witness will arrive (THE FIRST SUPERNATURAL event to take place) Then something bad will happen that will throw the world into chaos for a moment. I believe that to be 'the deadly would'. (I have heard the deadly would is the two witnesses and the healing is Satan and angels arriving but I don't know. Been on that fence a long time). Satan and angels kicked out of heaven (sun goes black as sackcloth moon to blood because spiritual darkness is coming upon the world) and the angels 'who rule an hour' take over the key positions and Satan EITHER by possession or just 'coming to light' by the lying signs and wonders ('2 horns of lamb spake like dragon' ) takes over, sets up image and implements mark of beast. All those who take the mark feel like they are in heaven because all of a sudden there are no wars on earth EVERYONE believes 'the Savior' (as there is also plenty for everyone as he shares the spoils), has returned and one world religion means no wars, and the world runs as a well oiled machine to the point that Satan stands as God claiming to be God in Jerusalem


and proud as he is, he has the two witnesses killed (forgets?) and

up until the second the 2 witnesses are raised up this world 'basically' remains the same but within the hour of them rising up WHICH EVEYONE SEES

And AGAIN, The sun goes dark THIS TIME because of the BRIGHTNESS of the coming of the Lord, (THIS IS A REALM CHANGE, the invisible world no longer invisible) cant see the moon same reason the earthquakes, and at the shout GREAT TRIBULATION falls upon those deceived as Satans 'secrets' all come to light and those with took the mark etc....
I agree.
.

We die and are raised and made a new creature so that the Holy Spirit has a place to dwell and yes I believe that is the 'seed' this flesh body provides the soil for so that when those who live and believe NEVER DIE experience the death of the flesh body they ascend and those who have not been made new creatures DIE at that point and descend awaiting the return of Christ when the dead will rise, just my opinion and what has been given from what is written

Thank you for sharing your views and beliefs God Bless