BELIEFS ABOUT THE KJV

You don't realize that you are not using the Thayer's Greek Lexicon correctly when you think it is supporting the correctness of translating it as candlestick. Just because you see the word candlestick there in that article does not mean that is the word John used.

It is telling you how the Greek word lychnias has been translated into English. We know that. That is why we are discussing it.

As you can see from all the other translations the best English word is not candlestick. If you think John saw wax candlesticks you are wrong. He didn't even mention such a thing. He said lychnias and this word has a history of usage that can be known by anyone who wants to read about it. I won't keep posting about it. It is just too easy to Google. It's not a hard question to answer.

I still don't know why they thought that candlestick was as good as lampstand for conveying the meaning. Maybe they just didn't think the oil vs wax detail mattered. I do.

λυχνίας (lychnias)

Strong's Concordance
Original Word: λυχνία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: luchnia
Phonetic Spelling: (lookh-nee'-ah)
Definition: a lampstand
Usage: a lamp-stand.


New International Version
I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,

New Living Translation
When I turned to see who was speaking to me, I saw seven gold lampstands.

English Standard Version
Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,

Berean Study Bible
Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,

Berean Literal Bible
And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,

King James Bible
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

New King James Version
Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands,

New American Standard Bible
Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And after turning I saw seven golden lampstands;

NASB 1995
Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;

NASB 1977
And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands;

Amplified Bible
Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And after turning I saw seven golden lampstands;

Christian Standard Bible
Then I turned to see whose voice it was that spoke to me. When I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I turned to see whose voice it was that spoke to me. When I turned I saw seven gold lampstands,

American Standard Version
And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And having turned I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And I turned to know that voice which spoke with me, and when I turned around, I saw seven menorahs of gold;

Contemporary English Version
When I turned to see who was speaking to me, I saw seven gold lampstands.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks:

Good News Translation
I turned around to see who was talking to me, and I saw seven gold lampstands,

International Standard Version
Then I turned to see who was talking to me, and when I turned I saw seven gold lamp stands.

Literal Standard Version
And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me, and having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,

New American Bible
Then I turned to see whose voice it was that spoke to me, and when I turned, I saw seven gold lampstands

NET Bible
I turned to see whose voice was speaking to me, and when I did so, I saw seven golden lampstands,

New Revised Standard Version
Then I turned to see whose voice it was that spoke to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,

New Heart English Bible
I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. Having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands.

Weymouth New Testament
I turned to see who it was that was speaking to me; and then I saw seven golden lampstands,

World English Bible
I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. Having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands.

Young's Literal Translation
And I did turn to see the voice that did speak with me, and having turned, I saw seven golden lamp-stands,

And below is what you might have been referring to. I don't think you understand how to use this reference tool.



Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3087: λυχνία

λυχνία, λυχνίας, ἡ, a later Greek word for the earlier λυχνίον, see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 313f; (Wetstein (1752) on Matthew 5:15; Winers Grammar, 24); the Sept. for מְנורָה; a (candlestick) lampstand, candelabrum: Matthew 5:15; Mark 4:21; Luke 8:16; (Luke 11:33); Hebrews 9:2; the two eminent prophets who will precede Christ's return from heaven in glory are likened to 'candlesticks,' Revelation 11:4 (Buttmann, 81 (70); Winer's Grammar, 536 (499)); to the seven 'candlesticks' (Exodus 25:37 (A. V. lamps; cf. B. D. (especially the American edition), under the word )) also the seven more conspicuous churches of Asia are compared in Revelation 1:12f, 20; Revelation 2:1; κινεῖν τήν λυχνίαν τίνος (ἐκκλησίας) ἐκ τοῦ τόπου αὐτῆς, to move a church out of the place which it has hitherto held among the churches; to take it out of the number of churches, remove it altogether, Revelation 2:5.

Strong's Concordance
Original Word: λυχνία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: luchnia
Phonetic Spelling: (lookh-nee'-ah)
Definition: a lampstand
Usage: a lamp-stand.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from luchnos
Definition
a lampstand
NASB Translation
lampstand (6), lampstands (6).

Check this out: From Bill Mounce

Dictionary:
λυχνία, -ας, ἡ
Greek transliteration:
lychnia
Simplified transliteration:
lychnia
Numbers
Strong's number:
3087
GK Number:
3393
Statistics
Frequency in New Testament:
12
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
n-1a
Gloss:
lampstand (not a candlestick)
Definition:
a candlestick, lampstand, Mt. 5:15; met. a candlestick, as a figure of a Christian church, Rev. 1:12, 13, 20; of a teacher or prophet, Rev. 11:4

You don't take this listing from Bill Mounce and say that Bill Mounce says it should be candlestick. He is listing how it has been translated not that it SHOULD be. He does make a point that is should NOT be under Gloss:

KJV is strictly word for word ... the NASB has better manuscripts but a weaker theology. Look if you believe salvation is wholly by God top to bottom you are going to translate certain sentences differently to someone who believes salvation is part God part man.

It's inevitable

There is a difference between deciding between words as to their aptness and trying to translate what was in the mind of the writer [that writer being God] sentence by sentence which is what dynamic equivalence is.

We differ in this one.

That's a thing with me too. I am familiar with KJV phrases for many verses that I can't remember the references of. KJV is what is in my head, blood, and heart.

John 21
15So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

I'm not very familiar with other translations. What do the other translations reveal about John 21:15-17 that KJV does not? (Question is for anyone.)

Greek & Hebrew take a lot of work, you are right about that. But it is so worthwhile! I started learning the alphabet the summer before my first semester. I learned a lot of vocabulary, too! I was far ahead of the class. Get yourself flash cards, or make them. I used to do vocabulary flash cards when I ate. A good grammar in English will help. I had a really solid second year French grammar, and I used it just to brush up on parts of speech, verbs, etc. using the grammar in French was easy for me, since my French is quite fluent.

The only thing that French grammar fell down in was participles. There was no chapter in the book. I really struggled with participles. Bill Mounce said they were one of the hardest parts to learn, but to keep at it, so I did!

I remember when I started seminary I thought I would do all the courses, except Greek and Hebrew. But when I got to Greek, I remembered I was good at languages, and had already studied 3 languages and did well in them. I got the Greek award for top student. My final mark in Hebrew was 102%! Just to say, don't going into your language classes already predetermined that it's too hard, and you are going to fail. I call that Greek & Hebrew Block. You can do it! I never regretted taking biblical languages, and I used then all the time. But lots of work, like you said!

PS a lot of people dropped out of Greek, even my second year online course, people who were ESL were the worst. Greek has cases - a word like "the" has 24 place holders. Some are repeated, but there are 17 different words in Greek for "the!" Imagine the Asians or a Russians who had no "the" at all. They dropped out quickly, meaning they had to change their degree program. But I know that won't happen to you, and you are quite literate.

A translation is when you take something written in one language, and put it in another. The Septuagint LXX was translated into Greek in the 3rd century BC because people had lost their Hebrew, because of Alexander the Great forcing Greek on everyone. Jesus & his disciples used the Greek LXX 80% of the time. Although I suppose you could say they "translated" the OT Hebrew quotes 20% of the time!

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That's not how translations work. Read that book I mentioned and do be
That is very encouraging coming from someone who has been there and knows what they are talking about. I am not dreading it as much now. I think my school uses Bill Mounce textbooks.

Perhaps your theology prejudices you against modern translators

People with different worldviews can have exactly the same information but interpret it differently.
It happens all the time even in the hard sciences. They needn't change the information to support different conclusions.
We tend to view factual information through our own worldview glasses.

My theology can match exactly or very closely with someone who reads the KJV exclusively. Even though I favour the NIV.
I can see my theology expressed in the NIV, while someone else reading the same NIV can see things differently.
It happens a lot. That's one reason why we argue so much here.


"God forbid"
Two words the KJV uses many times to express the meaning of the Greek μή which cannot be translated exactly.

μή (mē) is not the word for God ( θεός theos ) nor is it the word for forbid. ( κωλύω kōlýō)


The KJ translators used a thought for thought translation method to express the meaning of the word.
This is the same method used by modern translations because word for word isn't even possible much of the time.
Unless you don't mind sentences of gobbledygook.

Is he not another Bible agnostic? Bill is the final authority on what saith the scriptures...

And don't forget, a translation can be the inspired word of God. See Joseph and many other biblical examples.

Why do you insist that KJV is Word for Word?

Here is a random verse, (the one that happened to be displayed in my BibleHub app) KJV Luke 10:1
1After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come


Here is word for word Greek to English in the red.



Notice how many times one Greek word was translated into TWO English words by the KJV and this was just a random verse I grabbed for an example. Most verses in the KJV require multiple English words to translate ONE Greek word.

That my friend is a dynamic equivalent as well, since it is doing what is necessary to add words required to convey the Greek meaning based on the opinion of the translators. Adding words and rearranging them to form meaningful sentences in English is dynamic equivalent and it's necessary because no one can understand a Word for Word translation even if that were possible, which it is not.

You seem like a nice guy. It would be sad if you kept telling new believers in your church that the KJV was a word for word translation. When they find out that you were wrong they will not listen to anything else that you tell them thinking that you make stuff up to suit your own desires.

No, he is a believer and one of the foremost experts in Koine Greek and the manuscripts today. A born again believer in the inspiration of the Word of God.

Yes he is an authority on how to translate Greek to English.

And I have no idea why you are using the word "saith." Are you having a stroke?

His goal is to destroy all versions according to his superior knowledge using the "Greek game."

I agree here with you. A translation does not have to be word for word. It only needs to be the exact words for that language.

What may have been presented here were English Versions from a Greek text which I have just said in it is a moot place. Here’s the difference, when I presented the other languages ranging from the Syriac Vulgate which were translations from Greek and what it says, the Latin from what it says about the Greek, the French being a direct translation from Greek etc. Citing all the English versions from Greek are not evidence or proof that validates the Greek is meant to be a lampstand. You must remember, that a Greek must need to be translated and defined if it really fits the English readers. Now for the lampstand, makes no sense since the English defined them differently and the description does not fit biblically.

My offer is that we also need to go through other languages as witnesses of the truth since you don’t like archeological evidence and or historical evidence. The KJV is not alone in its translation having translated Greek as candlestick that is why this may be a “tie” but as I said I cannot settle it less. The KJV still holds clearer than what you may think since it was justified by the other languages that translated Greek. For now, I'll try to check those of Bill Mounce and others that need my further study but may result in the same thing.

Here are the other translations that reflect what I am saying and try to quote some herein: Another King James Bible believer Will Kenny provides the following:

Wycliffe’s bible 1395 - “and thou schalt sette tho on the candilstike”, Tyndale 1525 - “I sawe vii golde candelstyckes” (Rev. 1:12 etc), Coverdale 1535 - “I sawe seue golde candestyckes”, the Great Bible 1540, Matthew’s Bible 1549, the Bishops’ Bible 1568, the Geneva Bible 1587 - “ the 1917 JPS (Jewish Publication Society) and 1936 Hebrew Publishing Company translation - “And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold”, Whiston’s N.T. 1745, Wesley’s N.T. 1755, Noyes Translation 1869, the Revised Version 1881- “I saw seven golden CANDLESTICKS”, the American Standard Version 1901, Godbey’s N.T. 1902, Young's 1898, Darby 1890 - “both the CANDLESTICK and the table” (Hebrews 9:2), the Amplified Bible 1987 - “And this was the workmanship of the CANDLESTICK” (Numbers 8:4; Daniel 5:5; Zechariah 4:6 - “the bowl to the CANDLESTICK, causing it to yield a ceaseless supply of oil from the olive trees”, Douay-Rheims 1610, Webster's 1833 translation,…The Living Bible 1971 - “there behind me were seven CANDLESTICKS of gold.” (See also 1 Chron.28:15; Job 4:21; Isaiah 43:17; Jer. 52:19; Hebrews 9:2; Rev. 1:12, 20; 2:5 and 11:4 - "These two prophets are the two olive trees, and two CANDLESTICKS standing before the God of all the earth."), the New Life Version 1969 (Psalm 22:14 "My heart is like a melted CANDLE within me.", Psalm 68:2; 97:5 and Micah 1:4 - "The mountains will melt under Him and the valleys will break open, like a CANDLE in front of the fire"), the KJV 21st Century 1994, the Third Millenium Bible 1998, the Complete Jewish Bible 1998 - “We’ll put a bed and a table in it for him, and a stool and a CANDLESTICK.” (2 Kings 4:10), the Updated Bible Version of 2004 - “I saw seven golden CANDLESTICKS”, the Jubilee Bible 2010 - “the CANDLESTICK over against the table on the side of the tabernacle” (Exodus 26:25; Dan. 5:5), the Voice 2012 (Proverbs 24:20 -"the wicked will be snuffed out like A CANDLE", Isaiah 42:3; 43:17 and Matthew 12:20) and the New Living Translation 2013 (Isaiah 42:3; 43:17) and Matthew 12:20 - "He will not crush the weakest reed or put out a flickering CANDLE."

Other English Bibles that continue to use the words "CANDLE" and "CANDLESTICK" are The Ancient Hebrew Bible 1907, The Word of Yah 1993, God's First Truth 1999, The Sacred Scriptures of Yah 2001, The Tomson New Testament 2002, The Evidence Bible 2003, The Revised Geneva Bible 2005, the Context Group Version 2007, the Bond Slave Version 2009, The Hebraic Transliteration Scripture 2010, The Work of God's Children Illustrated Bible 2011 and The Modern English Version 2014 - "No one, when he lights a CANDLE, covers it with a vessel or puts it under a bed, but sets it on a CANDLESTICK"

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's an English word that did not exist at the time the Greek or Hebrew was written. Your goal is to ascertain what the author meant when he used the Hebrew or Greek word that he used.

Instead you are trying to use English translators using the word Candle as support for using the word Candle. And not comprehending how silly that is.

Suggest that in a symposium of Greek Scholars and they will refer you to college and ask you to come back after graduation.

Thayer Greek is a Strongs definition, Thayer a member of the 1881 Wescott and Hort revisionist cited Winer that it can be translated by far as a candlestick.

The NASB has it here thought the meaning as a lampstand, citing partially Mr. Strong, actually, the NASB cannot be trusted since it changes over time. The NASB has both “bulbs” and a “lamp stand” in Exodus 25:35- “A bulb shall be under the first pair of branches coming out of it, and a bulb under the second pair of branches coming out of it, and a bulb under the third pair of branches coming out of it, for the six branches coming out of the lampstand

Yes, and how come you know it was a lampstand? still, you have no yet justifcations.

Latin, Syriac, Spanish, French, or German Bibles were saying the same thing as the English KJB.

How is that goal be accomplished? Demonstrate it.