Church Doctrine VS. God's Word

If I have asked this question once I bet I have asked it 100 times and no one has given me an answer back. I got saved while I was out at sea; I served in the Navy, there was not a baptismal on board the ship. There was not a swimming pool on board ship. We were not allowed to go swimming even when we were anchored which did not happen very often. The people I studied with on board the ship did not say to me lets go down to the beach and you can get baptized. The Chaplin on board the ship never told me that I needed baptized. One of the first chapters in the bible I ever studied was John 3 about being born of water and being born of the spirit. Water birth is when you come out of your mothers womb. Spiritual birth is when you get your new spirit from God. The Holy spirit.


1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God So Loved

(Genesis 22:1-10; Romans 5:6-11)

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

There is not room for the rest of this but show me in there where Jesus said “you must be baptized to be born again.

I will grant you it goes on to say that: 22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized 23And John also was baptizing in AEnon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

You can not tell me that the people John Baptized or the people Jesus's disciples baptized were saved.

It dose say14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jesus explained the new birth right here and never said one thing about being baptized.

John 3 :16 does not say : That God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him and is baptized shall be saved. If Jesus explained the new birth to Nicodemus and us and never said a thing about baptism can baptism really save you!

You are correct salvation is by faith. Those who believe the entire gospel message trust what God says to be true and are buried into Jesus' death by baptism wherein their sins are destroyed in accordance with His death, burial and resurrection.

Believing in Jesus includes accepting and obeying His words when commanded. (Heb. 5:9) Prior to what is stated in John 3:16 Jesus states only those who are born of water and Spirit will enter the kingdom of God. Many will argue that He was not referring to water baptism. However, scripture refutes those who would argue the point.

All detailed conversion experiences confirm the need to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (water) and to be filled with the Holy Ghost. The only thing that differs is the sequence in which this happens. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16) As such, we know that as long as a person is alive they have the opportunity to believe and obey the command to repent and be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of their sin.

John's water baptism for remission of sin was an introduction to what was later modified to include the name of the Lord Jesus after His death, burial and resurrection.

When the name of the Lord Jesus is referenced in baptism it is water baptism as confirmed elsewhere in scripture. Jesus spoke of this in Luke 24:47, and Matt. 28:19-20. Peter first mentioned the need for everyone to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus in Acts 2:38-39. Peter also confirmed this when he baptized Cornelius and others in Acts 10:47-48. Also, as the preceding scriptures show baptism in Jesus' name is not when a person receives the Holy Ghost. That experience takes place separate from water baptism. And, is confirmed, yet again, by the Samaritan's experience in Acts 8:12-18. They did not receive the Holy Ghost until days after being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (water)

Each and every one of these experiences parallel what Jesus said about being born of water and Spirit.

Believing in Jesus includes accepting and obeying His words when commanded. (Heb. 5:9) Prior to what is stated in John 3:16 Jesus states only those who are born of water and Spirit will enter the kingdom of God. Many will argue that He was not referring to water baptism. However, scripture refutes those who would argue the point.

All detailed conversion experiences confirm the need to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (water) and to be filled with the Holy Ghost. The only thing that differs is the sequence in which this happens. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16) As such, we know that as long as a person is alive they have the opportunity to believe and obey the command to repent and be water baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of their sin.

John's water baptism for remission of sin was an introduction to what was later modified to include the name of the Lord Jesus after His death, burial and resurrection.

When the name of the Lord Jesus is referenced in baptism it is water baptism as confirmed elsewhere in scripture. Jesus spoke of this in Luke 24:47, and Matt. 28:19-20. Peter first mentioned the need for everyone to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus in Acts 2:38-39. Peter also confirmed this when he baptized Cornelius and others in Acts 10:47-48. Also, as the preceding scriptures show baptism in Jesus' name is not when a person receives the Holy Ghost. That experience takes place separate from water baptism. And, is confirmed, yet again, by the Samaritan's experience in Acts 8:12-18. They did not receive the Holy Ghost until days after being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (water)

Each and every one of these experiences parallel what Jesus said about being born of water and Spirit.

First you state the Holy Ghost is received when a person believes.

we don't need Paul's hands to receive the Holy Ghost anymore.

John's water baptism for remission of sin was an introduction to what would later become modified

First you state the Holy Ghost is received when a person believes. (your post #160) Then when scripture provides correction you refuse to accept it and deflect by saying we don't need Paul's hands to receive the Holy Ghost anymore.

Again, as I shared in post 165, Why did Paul ask have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed if a person is filled with the Holy Ghost the instant they believe? His question makes the point that one does not automatically cause the other to become a reality. The experience recorded in Acts 19:1-6 further confirms this. The group believes Paul message concerning Jesus, they get rebaptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus, and afterward Paul lays hands on them and it is then that they receive the Holy Ghost.

I'm not asking you or anyone to accept an opinion. I share scripture in hopes the eyes of some will become open to the truth.

Many folks work to elevate mans works to be equal with those of God. Working to take glory from God ,working to bring God down the a human plane. Reading your postings your braggings to my simple understanding sadly you are one of 'those'.


Rev_1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev_7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

You state

“Prior to what is stated in John 3:16 Jesus states only those who are born of water and Spirit will enter the kingdom of God. Many will argue that He was not referring to water baptism. However, scripture refutes those who would argue the point”

. New International Version
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

New Living Translation
Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

English Standard Version
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Berean Standard Bible
Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

Berean Literal Bible
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God."

King James Bible
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.



Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

BORN

bear, beget, conceive.

From a variation of genos; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate -- bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

see GREEK genos 1085

Strong's Concordance

genos: family, offspring

Original Word: γένος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: genos
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen'-os)
Definition: family, offspring
Usage: offspring, family, race, nation, kind.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
from ginomai
Definition
family, offspring
NASB Translation
birth (2), countrymen (2), descendant (1), descent (1), family (2), kind (3), kinds (3), nation (1), native (1), race (3).

You state

“Prior to what is stated in John 3:16 Jesus states only those who are born of water and Spirit will enter the kingdom of God. Many will argue that He was not referring to water baptism. However, scripture refutes those who would argue the point”

. New International Version
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

New Living Translation
Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

English Standard Version
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Berean Standard Bible
Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

Berean Literal Bible
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God."

King James Bible
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.



Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

BORN

bear, beget, conceive.

From a variation of genos; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate -- bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

see GREEK genos 1085

Strong's Concordance

genos: family, offspring

Original Word: γένος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: genos
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen'-os)
Definition: family, offspring
Usage: offspring, family, race, nation, kind.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
from ginomai
Definition
family, offspring
NASB Translation
birth (2), countrymen (2), descendant (1), descent (1), family (2), kind (3), kinds (3), nation (1), native (1), race (3).

Nicodemus was just as lost and confused as you are at the Statement “YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN”



New International Version
“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

New Living Translation
“What do you mean?” exclaimed Nicodemus. “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?”

English Standard Version
Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Berean Standard Bible
“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”

Berean Literal Bible
Nicodemus says to Him, "How is a man able to be born, being old? Is he able to enter into the womb of his mother a second time, and to be born?"

King James Bible
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?



How can a man be born when He is old? Nicodemus is confused and does not understand a word Jesus is saying to him. He understands that being born of water is the physical birth; he is trying to relate that to the spiritual birth.

Jesus tries to explain it to Nicodemus in verse 5.



King James Bible
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.



Just how does Jesus explain this mystery? Except a man be born of water. The first thing that happens as you enter this world is your mothers water brakes and you are born. BORN OF WATER. The only thing that water has to do with BEING BOREN AGAIN is that you start to age and become of the age of accountability, when you become aware of just what sin is. Then comes verse 6

King James Bible John 3:6

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

King James Bible John 3:7

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Do not be surprised that I tell you you must be born again. Jesus has said nothing about baptism up to this point in time, and he will not say anything about baptism from here to John 3:16&17





I have talked about being in the Navy and not having a place to be baptized and you do not want to answer my question was I saved the day I asked Jesus to forgive me or was I just lucky that nothing happened to me for the next 16 months give or take. I prayed I studied by bible, I witnessed to people on board ship. I loved the Lord with all my heart and soul. If something would have happened to me and I died during that time you are saying I would have gone to hell.

That is not the God I serve. Not the God I serve before I got baptized nor after. That may be the god of your church or your religion your doctrine. It is not my god


Your parents provide you with your flesh body it is God that gives you life at the moment of conception. It is God that gives you your soul, your spirit.

All souls come from God and all souls belong to God

Ezekiel 18:4

English Standard Version
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
Berean Standard Bible
Behold, every soul belongs to Me; both father and son are Mine. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
King James Bible
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.



Isaiah 49:5

English Standard Version
And now the LORD says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him— for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength—
Berean Standard Bible
And now says the LORD, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, that Israel might be gathered to Him—for I am honored in the sight of the LORD, and My God is My strength—
King James Bible
And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.



Jeremiah 1:5

English Standard Version
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Berean Standard Bible
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
King James Bible
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Yes it is.


Correct.

In no way do these statements conflict with one another. They are in complete agreement.


Amen. Now you're cooking with gas.

What you show is FIRST receiving the Holy Spirit is in no way linked to water baptism Second the remission of sin is no way linked to water baptism ... Jesus was baptised who had no sin.

You state

“Prior to what is stated in John 3:16 Jesus states only those who are born of water and Spirit will enter the kingdom of God. Many will argue that He was not referring to water baptism. However, scripture refutes those who would argue the point”

. New International Version
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

New Living Translation
Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.”

English Standard Version
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Berean Standard Bible
Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

Berean Literal Bible
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the kingdom of God."

King James Bible
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.



Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

BORN

bear, beget, conceive.

From a variation of genos; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate -- bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

see GREEK genos 1085

Strong's Concordance

genos: family, offspring

Original Word: γένος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: genos
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen'-os)
Definition: family, offspring
Usage: offspring, family, race, nation, kind.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
from ginomai
Definition
family, offspring
NASB Translation
birth (2), countrymen (2), descendant (1), descent (1), family (2), kind (3), kinds (3), nation (1), native (1), race (3).

The scriptures you share in no way refute God's established purpose for water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. They pertain to Jesus' sacrifice being what makes remission of sin possible through baptism, and that His sacrifice did not need to be repeated.

The bible is like a puzzle. All pieces have to fit. It is only when people put the pieces in there proper place that the actual picture appears. Jesus said unless a man is born again he can not SEE (comprehend) the kingdom. (John 3:3) Water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus is a part of the spiritual rebirth. As Ananias said to Paul, Why tardiest thou, be baptized and wash away thy sin calling upon the name of the Lord.

Lastly, sharing scripture in an effort to help others is not bragging, it is what Jesus commanded.

The kingdom of God is one of the names that references Christ's church. It does not reference eternal heaven.

??????

Yes, receiving the Holy Ghost is not linked to water baptism as I have stated many times. Both are necessary parts of the spiritual rebirth process. But one does not automatically result in receiving the other. And, of course, we know Jesus was sinless. However, He said water baptism was to be done in order to fulfill all righteousness. And backed up that statement throughout scripture.

Remission of one's sin does take place in obedience to water baptism in association with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The scriptures don't lie.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Beckie: What is the church?

Remission of one's sin does take place in obedience to water baptism in association with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. The scriptures don't lie.
1st John 1

5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Romans 5

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Ephesians 2

Alive with Christ

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

One in Christ

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

A Temple in the Lord

19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Matthew 26

26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.



We could go on and on There is salvation in none other than Jesus Christ and Him crucified, There is salvation in only the blood of the Lamb.

I will say it again and again and a gain we should get baptized Jesus was baptized but not for the forgiveness of sin, it is a public declaration a statement that we believe that Jesus came and died for our sins rose from the grave and He is coming again.

If you feel the need to push the doctrine of men and some churches that make void the word of God that is between you and God.