Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

If you squeeze the words enough, do you think you can make them fit into a pre-trib shaped hole?

This post-trib rapture Assumes only one "assembly of saints";
However:

Scripture teaches TWO Different assemblies:

1) TWELVE tribes of Israel (OT, Daniel, Mat-Acts 8, Heb-Rev):

Prophecy "Great tribulation/2nd prophesied coming" suspended
when "Israel REFUSED to repent, And FELL!" (Acts 7):

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

2) The [UNknown in Prophecy] Body Of Christ, the "ONE New man"
(NO "Jew Nor Gentile") (Acts 9[Transition - ch 28]-Romans-Philemon)

God "Concludes ALL in UNbelief" (Rom 11:30-32), Changing
Dispensations (With His Long-Kept Secret [a New and DIFFERENT
Message (Romans - Philemon)!!]

Therefore, the Correct order of events:

The First "Trump (Voice Of God)," The LORD Jesus Speaking To
Saul (Acts 9:4), Opening This Current Dispensation Of GRACE...

Ok then, this may Encourage/Edify/Comfort some of us, designated
By God, Through Paul, as "children Of Light" (contrasted with darkness
posted in #457) - what think ye of this figure / type of


A Perfect representation * of The [ONE] Body Of Christ, eh?:

“And The LORD Shall Deliver me from every evil work, and Will
Preserve me unto His HEAVENLY KINGDOM: to Whom Be Glory
for ever and ever. Amen” (2 Tim. 4:18).

Also, in Perfect Conformity / Harmony with All of Paul's Other
References Showing God's HEAVENLY UPlook For HIS Body!:

(2 Corinthians 5:1-2; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 1:20: Ephesians 2:6;
Philippians 3:20; Colossians 1:5; 2 Timothy 4:18) Amen?

So, Continuing with:
Thus, In This Current Dispensation Of GRACE, the Very Next Event:

...The Last "Trump (Voice Of God), The LORD Jesus (1Thes 4:16-17)
Closes This Current "Dispensation Of GRACE!" Hence "pre-trib" Departure/Glorification (1Co 15:51-57)
+
All of the ONE Body Of Christ [like Paul], caught up,
"Gathering us together TO Himself to Meet HIM, in the
air (not earth), for Heavenly Judgment / Presentation!
[Points 5 - 7 here: Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II]

Again:
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

Then God UNsuspends Prophecy, and Continues with "your order"
@GaryA, And it Contains TWO "raptureS of 144,000 and 2 witnesses!"
(But NO "Body Of Christ," Since it is already Gone PRE-UNsuspension!)

Then, After the Judgments of "vials, bowls, and trumpets of angels
(not The LORD's Voice)," And:

After Christ Sets His Feet on the Mt of Olives, on earth, there is, in
Biblical Fact "another trumpet," sending angels to "gather His elect,"
for judgment, and, entrance into the Millennial Kingdom, on earth!

(How, then can the "post-trib 7th angel trumpet" be the last???)
-------------------------------------------------
Sum: GRACE (UNmerited Favor) And Judgment (Great Tribulation/Wrath)
are Disharmonious "on the earth, at the same time," but Are:

Very Harmonious When Light/GRACE (The Body Of Christ In Heaven) and
Darkness/Judgment (Great Tribulation/Wrath on Israel/nations on earth)
Occur Concurrently! Amen?

Sum2: One * Body of Christ rules in heaven; twelve * apostles rule
Israel and the nations on earth!

* More representations for Twelve And One are found here:

Gospel Of The Kingdom (12)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

Gospel Of The Grace Of God (1)

Sum3: "Approval Unto God" solves Much Confusion!:
Prophecy/law...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

Mystery/GRACE...

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...

OK bro. But unlike you, I know exactly what I'm talking about. No doubts, no fears, no loose ends, no quandaries, no paradoxes. Just an effortless cruise thru the bounding sea of profound Biblical truths.

Y'all should try it some time bro. You don't know what you're missing out on.

I would have thought you would have looked into it (into what I am making a point about--did you see the OT link regarding word "WAR / WARFARE"?), before answering with a question that sounds like you would just like to dismiss such a point)...


CONSIDER:

Revelation (in the section I just wrote about in recent past posts of "the things which must come to pass in quickness" 1:1 / 4:1 / 1:19c, that Jesus was going to "SHOW" to John) happens to mention "mighty [some versions use 'strong'] angel" at the BEGINNING, in the MIDDLE, and at the END of that time-period:

--Rev5:2 "a mighty angel" (when Jesus is getting ready to open the FIRST SEAL at the START of that time period of judgments unfolding upon the earth);

--Rev10:1 "another mighty angel" ("another" likely in reference to the 2 angels of the preceding chapter, who had Trumpet #5 [MID-trib events] and Trumpet #6... and if so, this would mean that "another" is in relation to those in chpt 9, not to the one back in 5:2--so this would be at least two more... but then, we know there are a total of 7 with the Trumpets, and 7 with the Vials, and they also are involved with the dispensing of these "judgments" unfolding upon the earth, over some time);

--Rev18:21 "a mighty angel" (toward the END of this specific, future, LIMITED time period commonly called the [7-yr] Tribulation period)



The text in 2Th1, states, "ye who are troubled rest with us IN THE REVELATION OF the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire inflicting vengeance on them that..."



(why assume that the "7 angels" with 7 Trumpets and then the "7 angels" with the 7 Vials, have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "inflicting vengeance on" during the time period being spoken of in Revelation?? Esp. when 2Th2:10-12 describes a time period also, when "God shall send to them strong delusion, SO THAT they should BELIEVE THE LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"... which surely you do not think they only are sent strong delusion so to "believe the lie" during / on the last 24-hr day of His Return to the earth... do you?)



Now, to be sure it is a distinct "mighty / strong" Greek word, from that used in 2Th1:7-8, but it is nonetheless compatible... They are not describing drastically diverse things, just because the Greek words are not identical. (Recall, Paul uses VARIOUS terms and phrases [something like 8 times in these two epistles] to cover the Subject of "our Rapture" [a singular event], so I see no reason to make a claim that, since they are not the same Greek word, they must be referring to entirely different things, re: the "strong / mighty" angels, per the Greek words used in 2Th1 and in Rev)

"What chapters? And what is your question?"

Rev 4 & 5. The nature and identity of the 24 Elders bro. Still waiting for your......"opinion".

"But you CAN'T exegete any glorified trip to heaven because there aren't any."

Here are a few helpful thoughts pertaining to our heavenly destination. With obvious rapture connotations. Pretty clear bro.

1Co 15:40
There are also celestial G2032 bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial G2032 is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1Co 15:48
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, G2032 such are they G2032 ➔ also that are heavenly. G2032

1Co 15:49
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. G2032

Come on dude. I have (better yet TDW, and many others) posted the same proofs hundreds and hundreds of times on this and similar threads. You know the story man. You have heard it for YEARS AND YEARS right here on CC ad infinitum.

This "show me" "show me" song and dance is standard obfuscation and denial chicanery. Sad really.

You, GaryA, Lucy and FreeGrace2 have yet to respond to the simple matter of the identity of the 24 Elders (hint: who are WITHOUT DOUBT the pre-trib raptured Church).

BTW....I am having a really REALLY easy time believing in the truth of a pre-trib rapture. It's a done deal bro.

On the other hand, you seem to be working like a 20 mule team, sweating and straining to DISBELIEVE it.....

The critical phrase in the text literally says:

G1163 - "it is necessary" / must [needs] / needful
G1096 - "to cause to be" / become (come into being)
G1722 + G5034 - "in haste"; (G5034 - "a brief space of time")

In English today - "must in a brief space of time come into being" - 'will soon begin'.

"... things which will soon begin to transpire..."

(The phrase 'will soon begin' comes from modern English, not Koine Greek.)

I'm saying that the "Amill-teachings" (those who see NO MK-age following Christ's return / Second Coming) DO have a problem with the "gap" between what v.23 ends with, and the time of "Christ delivering up the kingdom to God" because they do not understand the word "eita [then]" used by Paul in v.24a.





[...distinct from both the Greek words "then / tote" and "then / EPeita" used elsewhere; the latter of these two used by Paul in v.23 between THOSE two items / phrases in that verse]

https://soundcloud.com/professional-sound-effects-group%2Fvinyl-record-scratch
Whoa! Who said anything about a rapture?

I am just talking about direct clear obvious statements in/of scripture.

This is what is wrong with the whole 'pre-trib' mantra - folks are not willing to tear themselves away from the mantra long enough to focus on anything specific in scripture - everything must go through the 'pre-trib' pre-mixer (and come out mush) - they will not allow themselves to look at scripture its 'pristine' state.

In the above example, start with not denying that the phrase "after the tribulation of those days" [literally] means that whatever follows this statement is after the end of the 'tribulation' being referred to in the statement.

And, nothing anywhere in scripture is going to contradict that - or be in conflict with that - in the slightest.

It is that simple.

And yet again boasts and talk about how great pre-trib is, but no substance, no explanation of why it is supposedly so great, and no post dealing with the major problems:

- Such as Paul speaking of the coming of the Lord as if it were multiple events.
- Peter says Christ will remain in heaven until the restoration of all things.

I see this (in bold ^ ) as consistent with what I'm saying the verse expresses...

...but not in the way that you seem to want to inject a word/phrase to then have it say this instead (which it doesn't):

"must in a brief space of time [FROM NOW] come into being". No.

Again, "soon [ADVERB]" is nowhere expressed in this verse.

And if the word "BEGIN" were meant in this verse, then one would expect it to be expressed in the same way that another verse expresses such a thing:

Luke 21:28 - "
English Standard Version
Now when these things begin [G756] to take place [G1096], straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Berean Standard Bible
When these things begin [G756] to happen [G1096], stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Berean Literal Bible
And of these things beginning [G756] to come to pass [G1096], look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

King James Bible
And when these things begin [G756] to come to pass [G1096], then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.



...or, one could read these ^ as saying "begin [G756] TO BECOME [G1096]..."



However, the word "BEGIN [G756]" is NOT used in Rev1:1 (as you suggest) along with this "G1096" word that IS there (as it is also in Lk21:28).

We've already established that neither "SOON [ADVERB]" nor the word "BEGIN [G756]" are used in Revelation 1:1.

I can only guess WHY you are wanting to inject them into the text here (in Rev1:1).

Ditto what I said above

1 602 [e]
1 Apokalypsis
1 Ἀποκάλυψις
1 [The] revelation
1 N-NFS

2424 [e]
Iēsou
Ἰησοῦ
of Jesus
N-GMS

5547 [e]
Christou
Χριστοῦ ,
Christ
N-GMS

3739 [e]
hēn
ἣν
which
RelPro-AFS

1325 [e]
edōken
ἔδωκεν
gave
V-AIA-3S

846 [e]
autō
αὐτῷ
Him
PPro-DM3S

3588 [e]
ho
ὁ
-
Art-NMS

2316 [e]
Theos
Θεός ,
God
N-NMS

1166 [e]
deixai
δεῖξαι
to show
V-ANA

3588 [e]
tois
τοῖς
to the
Art-DMP

1401 [e]
doulois
δούλοις
bond-servants
N-DMP

846 [e]
autou
αὐτοῦ
of Him
PPro-GM3S

3739 [e]
ha
ἃ
what things
RelPro-ANP

1163 [e]
dei
δεῖ
it behooves
V-PIA-3S

1096 [e]
genesthai
γενέσθαι
to take place
V-ANM

1722 [e]
en
ἐν
in
Prep

5034 [e]
tachei
τάχει .
quickness
N-DNS









[Question: what part of Revelation does this enlarged word ^ "TO SHOW" (1:1) correspond with??]

I don't appreciate the chicanery accusation. I haven't read all your threads... and I suspect it would be healthier for you if you spent time on something other than pre-trib in Bible discussions, but I digress. But I'm just seeing a pattern in this discussion.

The general trend on pre-trib is assume pre-trib, and then show how all these different passages fit into it... when you assumed pre-trib to come up with the interpretations. There isn't any scripture presented to actually demonstrate any reason to assume a pre-trib scenario in the first place--- no sequence of events where a pre-trib rapture is laid out, just scriptures that treats the coming of the Lord as one event and no scripture that treats it as two...or as a seven year event.

There is no reason to think any reader of an individual letter from any New Testament book (or Old Testament) would have come away from reading that book thinking there was a pre-trib rapture. If you can show me one stand-alone book of scripture that teaches it, then do so. There is also no reason to think that there was some unwritten tradition of pre-trib that the apostles taught that isn't exactly in the Bible. Of course that wouldn't be in the Bible, but none of the early Christians that we know anything about had some 'sacred tradition' of the apostles teaching a pre-trib rapture that they recorded. Pre-mil is ancient, with someone who knew John holding to it, but there is no such evidence for pre-trib.

Pre-mil rests on allegorically or loosely interpreting various scripture into the assumed pre-trib scenario. If that is not the case, show me how someone could have read one book of scripture that indicates that Jesus or the apostles actually taught pre-trib.

I have seen this scenario with other arguments also. I dialogued with someone who could not show me any specific scriptures that indicated that God stopped doing miracles through individuals, but she said the overarching message of scripture was that He did. But she didn't have any specifics to show.

Btw, TDW will go to great detail to post very extensive posts, in which it is hard to figure out what his point really is, to somehow try to make it possible for pre-trib to be feasible in relation to passages that argue against it like II Thessalonians 1, etc.

Why don't you do it yourself? First name, last name, and middle name. Don't forget middle names and street addresses, especially for those alive now so I can go visit them.

I've posted on this topic. I don't think if someone has a vision, that the individual in the vision has to participate. Like if Zechariah had a vision of the priest Yeshua, that doesn't mean the next time he saw Zechariah, Yeshua was going to say, "Hey, I saw you in that vision you had of me before the throne. That was awesome! Thanks for recommending a turban be put on my head. I felt naked without that in that vision. See you in the next vision, dude!" Twelve is a number associated with Israel, since there were twelve tribes, and twelve is associated with the church. There were twelve apostles. Both Israel and the church have been governed by elders who pastored the people. Israelites who are properly in relation with God, since Christ came, believe in Jesus.

You don't actually explain your own position that much. I assume you think somehow John that were redeemed proves that they either time traveled to John between the rapture and the second coming in your scenario or John time-traveled to them. Whatever the case, could you explain why you even think this is some kind of evidence for pre-trib. And if this is the big piece of evidence you keep bringing up, should you really wonder why non-pretribbers do not find your arguments convincing?

I don't think that way about time travel. The elders and the beast are symbols. So I don't see time travel from a specific time period as necessary.

More puffery.

[/quote]

I'm not trying to dismiss a point. You can just be rather unexplicit as to what your point is. I think I get what you are trying to say. First of all, Jesus comes back, sending angels to gather the elect AFTER THE TRIBULATION according to Matthew 24. In II Thessalonians 1:8, Jesus comes back with angels, but He is is doing the inflicting of vengence. It's in the singular.

One of the problems with ____what I think____ you are trying to argue here is that you are getting really lose with the concept of the coming of the Lord. So the Lord comes back with His angels and the Lord Jesus is inflicting vengence... but... I'm guessing here... you think Jesus is actually in heaven during this 'coming of the Lord' during the part while He's inflicting vengence, having His angels do it?

That's such a lose non-literal interpretation of the Lord's coming/appearing. It's kind of like the preterists who say the Lord's coming means a bunch of destruction happens to Jerusalem in 70 AD, and that that was the coming of the Son of Man. It's heavily allegorical interpretation you are talking about... if I get what you are trying to say.

The other thing is, are these kind of things why you believe in pre-trib? It's not really evidence for pre-trib. What it is kind of an excuse to keep holding on to pre-trib. If you have a thousand of this little 'meh' arguments for why pre-trib could potentially still be true in spite of the fact that it doesn't fit certain passages for pre-trib, that's not evidence.

I'll ask you the same thing I asked cv5. Can you think of one individual book of the Bible that, if a believer read it without having been taught pre-trib, just based on that book alone, he would believe in pre-trib? Is there any evidence that Jesus or the apostles actually taught pre-trib.

As far as I can see, pre-trib rests on assuming pre-trib, and then fitting some kind of overarching story for pre-trib together from all these bits and pieces from across the Bible. And that might not be a fatal flaw necessarily for some doctrine. But the problem is it runs against the plain sense of the text to say their are multiple comings of the Lord, or else that it lasts seven years, but Jesus isn't hear during that time.

Peter also said that Jesus would remain in heaven until the time of restoration of all things. It is a big stretch to say that all that destruction during the tribulation is the restoration of all things.

I doubt you'll get an answer for a question like that. It's too vague.

If you want to cut and paste an interlinear, you could get one that is horizontal. Biblehub could probably work. You can also get straightup Greek texts online and cut and paste them if you have a need for that. That vertical Bible verse post is hard to fit on the screen.

I'm just saying that the sequence / timing issues AGREE with the sequence Paul also lays out in 2Th2 (and repeats 3x in that chpt): ONE THING "FIRST," before the DOTL can indeed [be rightly said to] "[be] present" (that was the false claim--that it "is present / already here"). And that ONE THING he says is to be "FIRST" is the very Subject Paul himself is bringing to the table, especially in relation to the Subject of the "false claim" matter he speaks of in v.2 (which is not the same thing as Paul's Subject: our rapture).



Again, if one misapprehends what it is the false claim was saying (and means) IN VERSE 2 (2Th2:2), one will set off on the wrong foot in interpreting just what Paul was actually conveying in this text, with regard to it.

It was horizontal when I "copied" it (of the "Copy & Paste" effort), but when it "pasted," it went all vertical. = P (I dislike that also!)





From this interlinear (which is "horizontal" but doesn't PASTE that way):

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/1-1.htm

It's alright. I've already "answered" it like five times already, in this thread.