Is faith a work?

If you don't mind - I would like to give my thoughts on this.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The ones speaking to Christ are the ones that had seen the miracle and had their bellies filled with the bread. Jesus does not answer them directly but answers with the truth of their seeking him out and defines what is really important. John 6:26 & 27 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labor not for the meat which is perishing, but for that meat which endures unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

They had paid little heed to a miracle being performed and this was not what they wanted to hear. They wanted to know how they could provide for themselves and do the things that they saw Jesus Christ do. So they asked, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? They assumed there was some kind of work they could do, that would merit favor with God and make it possible to do what they had experienced. This is reminiscent of Acts 8:18, where Simon tried to purchase the gift of God.

Christ answered in John 6:29. We need to break down this verse. "This is the work of God..." The word "work" does not modify "believe". It instead points to the antecedent previously spoken of. Primarily, the miracle of being fed, which had gotten so much attention and was heavily on their minds. This work of God, through Jesus Christ, gave visible and physical evidence that the Son was indeed the Lord and promised Messiah. The purpose of this work, was: "..that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." This part of the answer needs to be broken down as well.

The Greek word translated: "believe", is: πιστεύσητε. It is a Present tense, Active voice, Subjunctive mood, Verb. When you have the present tense, in the English language, you would state it as: "believing". The "ing" ending a word shows present tense. The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility - not the mood of reality. If it were the mood of reality, it would be in the Indicative mood. This is expressed in the English language with: "may" or "might" in front of the word. Because of these things in the Greek, the translation does not give us the proper understanding. It should have been translated: "..so that you may be believing on Him whom He sent.." Giving clear evidence, through various miracles, proved that Jesus Christ was no mere man nor a Prophet or a Rabbi.

Note their reply to this. They still wanted more:

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign then will you do, that we may see, and believe thee? what works do you? This is a fools question. No one ever believes because of signs, are archeological relics or because of some other physical evidence.

Verse 34, proves that they were still thinking with their bellies and could not spiritually discern what Christ was saying. This finally led to Jesus Christ proclaiming the following:

John 6:35 Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that is believing on me shall never thirst.
John 6:36 But I said unto you, that you have seen me, and yet believe not.
John 6:37 All that which the Father gives me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

^^^^this^^^^is^^^^^^ correct.^^^^^^^
Our faith is a work of God
Our works in faith are also the works of God.
Farther more, any of our works that are not of God are worthless as filthy rags, and serve against us as sin laden self indulged piety; fig leaves as an attempt to cover our shame.

Again The very scripture you quote makes a distiction between Faith and Works.. If faith was a work then the verse would never have been produced..

Distinct yes.
When pertaining to salvation = inseparable = John 6:29

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Very philosophical and I posed the question just to see what other's thoughts are about it. I do, personally, believe animals have souls if by soul we mean the breath of life. Soul just translates to breath, but it's more than that. I also believe that a soul can be disembodied while still retaining consciousness, thoughts, feelings, etc.

How did John the Baptist know who had produced fruits worthy of repentance out of the tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of people who had come out to him? The short answer, I believe, is he didn't. He only knew the Pharisees and Sadducees were overtly corrupt, as most people likely did, because they were always on display in the synagogue.

Matthew 3:5,6 KJV
5Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

That's why I am more inclined to say that the water baptism and sin confession itself was the fruit worthy of repentance. Doing something that God commands is, in effect, changing ones mind and actions.

Also, John the Baptist said he would baptize the Pharisees and Saducees:

Matthew 3:11
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance...

Mark 11:30
30The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.


Amen to that. So let's see. God can clearly grant repentance. If God grants repentance then God also grants faith to repent?

How does an unregenerate person with a heart of stone have the pre-requisite faith to repent if they are spiritually dead and void of the Holy Spirit to begin with? I think that's the part I need to work out and it seems like it's going to involve dropping a lot of assumptions about how God works.

Well no I am not ignoring Paul's words, I am just interpreting in regards to what Jesus said. Ironically, I am paying more attention to them than you seem to be.

It all depends on the context. Sometimes "work" in the Bible means just exerting physical or mental effort. Other times it may refer to good works, dead works, works of the flesh, works of the Law, works of God, etc. Not all "works" are the same. I accurately interpreted the verses you provided based on context, but thanks for sharing.

A question from my perspective is, is our faith something that God is working to cause us to have or is our faith a work that He creates and literally puts into our hearts and minds? It seems like God sent Jesus to preach the gospel and do miracles so that, in effect, people would believe in Him. That looks like the work of God is to do things that cause us to have faith rather than God just giving us the faith.

John 4:48
48Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will never believe.”

John 14:11,12
11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

First question -----
Do you believe the preaching of the Gospel, "opens" ones heart?

I say ----
No heart is open to the message until they are drawn by God -------

it is God only who knows who's heart will be open and who's heart won't be open to the message ------this does not involve our intellect -----this is God's Job

Jesus said those who have Ears Hear ---so the dullness of our ears has to be changed to the hearing of the message----------- this is first and foremost ---God does that --not our intellect

Upon us having our ears and heart open by God -----only then Faith enters from us hearing the Word ------again this has nothing to do with our intellect ------this faith comes from Jesus who is the Word ------

2nd Question

2.) You said not by reasoning. What good would the Word of God be without reason. This goes against Scripture teaching.

No it really doesn't ----you quoted this scripture with the word reasoning in it -----so you could prove your point ---but you need to do some research on how this word REASONING is used in this scripture --which you did not do -----because your more interested in being right than grasping the real message behind this word -----Reasoning --here means to discuss ----to talk about how your living like the world and not like God wants you to live -----

This scripture is about right worship and right living for those who claim to be Godly -----

Your Scripture proves that their Worldly intellect is still in tact and they do not have the right Faith ---their Faith does rely on their intellect which comes from living in this World -----this Faith is dead faith and cannot nor will not---- save anyone -----your in the Old Testament and Jesus hadn't come yet to preach His Good News -------


Isaiah 1
God’s Case Against Israel
2 Heaven and earth, listen! This is what the Lord says:

“I raised my children and helped them grow up,
but they have turned against me.
3 A bull knows its master,
and a donkey knows where its owner feeds it.
But Israel does not know me.
My people do not understand.”


13 “Don’t keep bringing me those worthless sacrifices. I hate the incense you give me. I cannot stand your festivals for the New Moon, the Sabbath, and other special meeting days. I hate the evil you do during those holy times together. 14 I hate your monthly meetings and councils. They have become like heavy weights to me, and I am tired of carrying them.

15 “When you raise your arms to pray to me, I will refuse to look at you. You will say more and more prayers, but I will refuse to listen because your hands are covered with blood.

16 “Wash yourselves and make yourselves clean. Stop doing the evil things I see you do. Stop doing wrong. 17 Learn to do good. Treat people fairly. Punish those who hurt others. Speak up for the widows and orphans. Argue their cases for them in court.

your verse here

18 “I, the Lord, am the one speaking to you. Come, let’s discuss this. Even if your sins are as dark as red dye, that stain can be removed and you will be as pure as wool that is as white as snow.

Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
“Come now, let us settle the matter,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.

Right Faith comes from God ---not reasoning ----

From Strong's ----

"We have made faith a condition of mind, when it is a divinely imparted grace of the heart . . . we can receive faith only as he gives it .


The Lord continuously births faith in the yielded believer so they can know what He prefers, i.e. the persuasion of His will (1 Jn 5:4).

The root of 4102/pistis ("faith") is 3982/peithô ("to persuade, be persuaded") which supplies the core-meaning of faith ("divine persuasion"). It is God's warranty that guarantees the fulfillment of the revelation He births within the receptive believer (cf. 1 Jn 5:4 with Heb 11:1).

"Faith precedes works, and is not something merely deduced by
reason of existing"

Why don't you do the reverse and understanding what Jesus said by what Paul wrote in 2 different epistles?

Exactly! Jesus used their own words against them! As I noted.

Jesus used their own words against them. Paul didn't have to do that.

But thanks for sharing.

I dont think the miracles were to convince anyone to believe. I think they were evidence of who He is. If the Holy spirit uses external evidences to work faith in someone, it is still the Holy Spirit working with in .

The Bible explains it, just read next verse...
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Need more? Luke 17:10 unprofitable servants, 1Timothy 4:8 godliness is profitable in all things, Hebrews 10:24 to provoke, 1 John 3:18 deed and in truth, Romans 12:1 reasonable service, James 1:22 doers of the word, 1 John 2:6 walk as He walked, and many more!

Part Two:

Now as to your last thoughts - you said:

"How does an unregenerate person with a heart of stone have the pre-requisite faith to repent if they are spiritually dead and void of the Holy Spirit to begin with? I think that's the part I need to work out and it seems like it's going to involve dropping a lot of assumptions about how God works"

I touched on this in the previous post. Let me now expand it a bit. Sorry for the length of the post but these are complicated matters.

A natural person, as described by the Bible, (1 Cor. 2:14), cannot do three things. 1.) Receive the things of the Spirit. 2.) Know these things. 3.) Discern these things. Why? Because in his natural state, these things are foolish to him. When you think upon this, it is a powerful and condemning fact about mankind. Everyone of us starts out in life with this deficiency. Why? Because we ae a fallen creature, (Romans 3:10-18). We love sin and are at enmity with God, Romans 8:6-8). We need something to change us from a "natural" man to a "spiritual" man. Enter the Holy Spirit and His Ministry. Familiar verses follow:

John 3:1-10 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: the same came unto him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you are doing, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus says unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew. The wind is blowing where it will, and you are hearing the voice thereof, but are not knowing whence it cometh, and whither it is going: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?

Now I want to drill down on this conversation. First, note that Nicodemus came to Jesus "at night" - he didn't want to be seen associating with Jesus. John 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: the same came unto him by night,

Nicodemus knows there is something special about this Jesus but does not see Him as the Son of God or as the Godman or as the promised Messiah. John 3:2 and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you are doing, except God be with him.

Jesus, tells Nicodemus what he needs to hear, (which was often the way Jesus Christ answered unbelieving questioners), not what Nicodemus was questioning him about. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Note that Jesus started this sentence with "Verily, Verily" or "Truly, Truly" - which was His habit, when He was about to say something REALLY important.

This proclamation catches Nicodemus off guard. He understands nothing about what the Lord had just said to him. Nicodemus says unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Nicodemus' question is so far fetched, one would have a tough time not laughing.

Jesus ignores the question and repeats Himself but this time adds more descriptive language. John 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew. Christ gives two reasons for the need of a new birth. 1.) It is needed to enter into the Kingdom of God. Some think this means that a believer will be "Born again", at some point in their Christian walk. However, one must ask: How can a believer sit in the heavenly places, from the moment they first believed, without entrance into the Kingdom of God? 2.) Jesus emphasizes the need to be born of the Spirit, to transform one from being alive in just flesh, to being flesh and alive in the spirit. Remember the "natural" man versus the "spiritual" man from above? Jesus continues His instruction to Nicodemus by way of illustration:

John 3:8 The wind is blowing where it will, and you are hearing the voice thereof, but are not knowing whence it cometh, and whither it is going: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. So Jesus compares the work of the Holy Spirit to the wind blowing TO and FRO. The believer can hear the sound or voice of the Spirit and can see the effects of it but no one knows when the Spirit will come or to where
He goes.

Christ then admonishes Nicodemus for not knowing these great Truths. Nicodemus, if He is going to be a teacher, should know the workings of salvation. John 3:9-10 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?

There is something very important in John 3:8b, that we don't want to overlook. We must once again, go to the Greek text. Most Bibles translate this part of the verse as: ".. so is every one that is born of the Spirit." This is okay as a translation goes but it seems to put the emphasis on the present or future and not the past. Thus, the reader is going to miss a big blessing. The Greek word translated "is born" is: γεγεννημένος from the root word: γεννάω (pronounced: Ghen-nah-o). Why is this important? Let's see. This particular verb form is a: Perfect- Passive- Participle. Since it is Perfect tense, (which does not occur in English language), it should always be translated with: "has been" or having been", inserted in front of the word. The Perfect in the Greek, always emphasizes "past action" which goes on forever. In other words, the past action has permanency. So verse 3:8b, would be better translated in this way to emphasize the perfect tense verb: "so it is with everyone that has been born of the Spirit" So Christ is saying, you cannot see or hear the Spirit until you have been born of the Spirit.

Another thing about this verb translated, "has been born", is to take note of the voice of the verb. The voice is "Passive". The passive voice means: That one experiences the action of the verb but does not participate in it's action. In other words, when someone is passive voice, in the Greek language, that one is being acted upon and is not the cause of the action. An example of this would be like: "The man who was tied up, was beaten and abused by his captors.". The verbs "beaten" and "abused" would be in the passive voice, in this sentence. Because the man was acted upon by his captors but was in no way active in his own abuse nor did anything of his actions cause the abuse.

So we clearly see, that in order to have an operating spirit, every believer MUST be first Regenerated by the Spirit. This Regeneration, is the sole work of the Spirit upon the one the Spirit is sent to. The recipient is "passive" in this work. The recipient did not initiate it. The recipient did not do it to themselves. They have no part in the time or place of the Spirit's work upon them but without it, there can be no gift of faith, no spiritual understanding and therefore, no genuine repentance.

One final note, the "water" spoke of in John 3:5 - has nothing to do with baptism. This is a cleansing that is done in Regeneration. The Bible commentary on this is in: Titus 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

I hope this helps, good Lord willing, in some small way. I have some further observations, about the distinguishing characteristics of religionist versus true Christians but this post has gotten to long. Let me know if you would like me to expound on those points in the future.

All I am going to respond to is this: You said I put "reason" in into this verse to prove a point. That is an unfounded accusation. Let's see how many Bibles translate this verse over the years.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. King James version

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith Jehovah: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. American Standard Version

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Revised Version

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. New International Version

Shall I go on? I think not.

Part one was somehow deleted when I tried to post it. I probably goofed something up.

I was commenting on verse 3:11a of Matthew. I was showing from the Greek text, that the Greek word: εἰς - pronounced "ice" is a commonly used preposition in the NT. It can mean: to, towards, unto, upon, for, because of, therefore, wherefore...to mention a few. Without going into a lot of the Greek grammatical arguments... This verse would have been better translated in one of three ways, in order to give a more proper understanding:

I indeed baptize you in water upon repentance:

I indeed baptize you in water for your repentance:

I indeed baptize you in water because of repentance:

In the Gospel of Mark, he wrote it in this way:

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. (KJV)

John Gill makes this observation:

I indeed baptize you; or, as Mark says, "I have baptized you"; I have authority from God so to do; my commission reaches thus far, and no farther; I can administer, and have administered the outward ordinance to you; but the inward grace and increase of it, together with the ordinary and extraordinary gifts of the Spirit, I cannot confer. I can, and do baptize, upon a profession of repentance, and I can threaten impenitent sinners with divine vengeance; but I cannot bestow the grace of repentance on any, nor punish for impenitence, either here or hereafter; these things are out of my power, and belong to another person hereafter named: all that I do, and pretend to do, is to baptize

Thought this might be helpful to you.

No ------I did not say -----YOU PUT the Word Reason in the Scripture

This is My Post from Post #109 page 11 about the scripture you Quoted -----

No it really doesn't ----you quoted this scripture with the word reasoning in it -----so you could prove your point ---but you need to do some research on how this word REASONING is used in this scripture --which you did not do -----because your more interested in being right than grasping the real message behind this word -----Reasoning --here means to discuss ----to talk about how your living like the world and not like God wants you to live ----

i say -----
So your comment here ---You said I put "reason" in into this verse to prove a point. That is an unfounded accusation.

Is False --I never said that -----so your comment is unfounded ------

You are correct sir. I responded to your post when I was very tired and misread it. I do apologize.

If I may, I would suggest to you, however, to not become so offended when one disagrees with you. I know, that we can be attacked on these chat's pretty severely but we do not have to respond in kind and indeed should not. Scripture tells us to teach in meekness and with all humility. Share things with others, in the way you would like them to share with you. In this we honor our Lord.

I must remind myself of this from time to time. God go with you.

P.S. I would like for you to expound your point on the subject of "Reasoning". How do you see the word "reason" used in our society and in the Bible.

No need to apologize ---all is well --just pointed out what I didn't say you said I did ------

I think your the one who took offence -----no me -----so just maybe you should take your own advice on not taking offense -----but in this case I think your intellect ---worldly reasoning got the best of you --and you just assumed I said -----that you inserted the word reason in the Scripture ------

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This is my view on your Question

Human reasoning --comes from the Human mind -----we have the ability to decide if something is safe to do or not to do ---to act in a certain bad situation that happens in our lives ----to help others or not to ----to play a strategy games ----to have debates -----to invent things and manufacture them -----

Dictionary meaning
to think or argue in a logical manner.
to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises.
to think through logically, as a problem (often followed by out).
to conclude or infer.

I say -------This reason or reasoning is for the here and now -----in this physical world ------this reasoning will not help you get the true message of the Scripture when it comes to the Bible ----

You cannot know the mind of God ---so God inspired His word ---God is Spiritual -----all scripture has a Spiritual meaning and your Human Intellect --reason will not work in our trying to decipher the Spiritual meaning of what God is trying to tell us in His Word ----

That is why it is so important to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ---

The one and only Person who does know God's Spiritual mind so you can ASK for Spiritual direction in deciphering the real meaning behind the words in the Scripture -----Spiritual reasoning has to come by and through the Holy Spirit -----the human mind cannot reason or comprehend rightly God's Word -----

The words we know with our human reasoning ---like fear ----which with our human reasoning is being afraid of someone or some thing that does harm ---it is a feeling of Dread -----in Scripture when used with God --means reverence -----

Doubt is a really good example ----many people believe that Doubt can make Faith stronger ------and that it is OK to doubt God's word cause it grows our Faith ------that is the human reasoning -----and for this world Doubt can save your life ----you doubt you can make it across the road when the car is coming -----good choice for this world

Doubt in God's word is a NO NO --if you doubt God's word your in unbelief of it ----you can't be in true Faith and in Doubt of the truth of Scripture at the same time ---your either in Doubt or your in Faith ----

Doubt in using it in a Spiritual sense will take make your Faith Waver -----it will not strengthen your Spiritual Faith in God or His Word ----

Strong Faith is grounded and rooted in God's Word and His Love for us ---so that when the storms come --you remain upright and steadfast --knowing God will keep you safe -----

God's Kingdom works on the Farming system ---you see the seed --you then plant the seed and cover it with soil where is cannot be seen and wait for it to take root and then appear with the harvest------your Human reasoning is useless here -----

Our believing is God's work, not ours. The unregenerate cannot believe in the things of the Spirit, until he has been born again, and being born again is a work of God's sovereign grace, without the works of mankind.

The faith in Eph 2:8 is not our faith, but is Christ's faith (Gal 2:16). The scripture finishes by saying "and that not of yourselves, Verse 9 - Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Yes the Holy Spirit (who is God) works on our conscience to convict us of our need for the work of Jesus.. Our LORD Jesus works and worked.. His Work secured for us salvation so that we would not have to fail in our works to earn eternity in the lake of fire..

We trust on the work of Jesus to win our salvation.. Not on our own works..