Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

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V

VARob

Banned
#921
Dec 21, 2020
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#921
Magenta said:
Nobody gets a new body unless they are saved. Yes, that must come first. Logic 101.
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We're talking about the ability of people to believe the gospel.

Calvinism asserts that God makes the first move, enabling a person to believe, and that if God does not do so, the person will not believe. It's not true. Anyone has the ability to choose to believe the gospel. It's why we preach it, so people can hear it. We are ambassadors for Christ. It's up to each person to decide for themselves whether they want to believe it, or not.

If God must first enable a person to believe, then since He wants everyone to be saved, He enables everyone.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#922
Jul 3, 2015
57,040
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#922
VARob said:
We're talking about the ability of people to believe the gospel.

Calvinism asserts that God makes the first move, enabling a person to believe, and that if God does not do so, the person will not believe. It's not true. Anyone has the ability to choose to believe the gospel. It's why we preach it, so people can hear it. We are ambassadors for Christ. It's up to each person to decide for themselves whether they want to believe it, or not.

If God must first enable a person to believe, then since He wants everyone to be saved, He enables everyone.
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So in your view, man makes the first move? :oops:

We love God of our own "free will"? Not because He first loved us, eh?

We are not born enemies of God, hostile towards Him?
 
V

VARob

Banned
#923
Dec 21, 2020
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#923
Magenta said:
So in your view, man makes the first move? :oops:
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God moved first by sending His Son, and leaving us His Word.

We love God of our own "free will"?
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Yes.

Not because He first loved us, eh?
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God is love, He loves everyone. He wants everyone to be saved. He first loved us by providing the means of salvation.

We are not born enemies of God, hostile towards Him?
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Because of the sin of Adam, we are born at enmity wth God. But not everyone is hostile towards Him. Anyone can choose to seek Him. Many do, many don't.

God does not enable some people to believe, but not others. Again, if you're going to insist that God must first somehow enable people to believe before they have the ability to believe, then because He wants everyone to be saved and He is not willing that any should perish, He did that for everyone.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#924
Mar 1, 2022
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#924
VARob said:
God moved first by sending His Son, and leaving us His Word.


Yes.


God is love, He loves everyone. He wants everyone to be saved. He first loved us by providing the means of salvation.


Because of the sin of Adam, we are born at enmity wth God. But not everyone is hostile towards Him. Anyone can choose to seek Him. Many do, many don't.

God does not enable some people to believe, but not others. Again, if you're going to insist that God must first somehow enable people to believe before they have the ability to believe, then because He wants everyone to be saved and He is not willing that any should perish, He did that for everyone.
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Romans 3 says none seek after God.
 
V

VARob

Banned
#927
Dec 21, 2020
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#927
Cameron143 said:
He was speaking of mankind apart from God.
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ok.

People rarely change their beliefs on anything, much less on this. If a person believes Calvinism is true, then that's what they believe, and it's unlikely they will change.

Peace
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#928
Mar 1, 2022
16,160
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#928
VARob said:
ok.

People rarely change their beliefs on anything, much less on this. If a person believes Calvinism is true, then that's what they believe, and it's unlikely they will change.

Peace
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Respectfully, I'm not a Calvinist. I've never read a book by him or done a study of his life. I have read books that have quoted him as well as in sermons.
I say this because a ploy some use to dismiss arguments are to lump someone into a group rather than explain their own understanding.
I realize I don't have a perfect understanding of scripture and am always grateful for those who make the attempt to share their understanding.
So I do appreciate that you have taken the time to answer.
Grace and peace.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#930
Jul 3, 2015
57,040
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#930
VARob said:
God moved first by sending His Son, and leaving us His Word.

Yes.
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So glad you agree that God made the first move. Not us!

VARob said:
Because of the sin of Adam, we are born at enmity with God. But not everyone
is hostile towards Him. Anyone can choose to seek Him. Many do, many don't.
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Enemies are not neutral by definition. Primary definition of enemy:

a person who is actively opposed or hostile to someone or something.

VARob said:
God does not enable some people to believe, but not others. Again, if you're going to insist that God
must first somehow enable people to believe before they have the ability to believe, then because
He wants everyone to be saved and He is not willing that any should perish, He did that for everyone.
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John 12:31-32
:)
 
V

VARob

Banned
#931
Dec 21, 2020
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474
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#931
Magenta said:
So glad you agree that God made the first move. Not us!
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God through Christ made the first move in making salvation available. The next move was ours: choosing to accept it.

Enemies are not neutral by definition. Primary definition of enemy:

a person who is actively opposed or hostile to someone or something.
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Enemies of God can change, they can decide to believe the gospel.


John 12:31-32
:)
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What do you think those verses mean? I hope you don't think they mean that everyone be saved.
 
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