John 1:17

There are some interesting translations of one of my favorite Bible Verses, John 1:17
The NIV: For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
The KJV: For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
The TLB: For Moses gave us only the Law with its rigid demands and merciless justice, while Jesus Christ brought us loving forgiveness as well.

The actual Greek translation is: That the law through Moses was given, the grace and the truth through Jesus Anointed became
Many versions include the word “but”.

Common usage of this conjunction includes “Contrary” and “Exception”. For me this sounds like an inserted opinion, not a translation. The differences in these four translations highlights the difficulty of reading only one Bible version. It takes a lot of work to find truth.

I don't get that there is difficulty in reading one one Bible Version ------the scripture you quoted ---the Message is the same ------the truth is ---the Law was in fact given by Moses or through Moses --all say that -----Grace and Truth came by --came through Jesus ----Jesus did bring Loving forgiveness ----all give the same message --not hard to grasp in my view ------


here is a couple more ---all say the same message -----

New American Standard Bible
For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

New Living Translation
For the law was given through Moses, but God’s unfailing love and faithfulness came through Jesus Christ.

DARBY
For the law was given by Moses: grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ.

The Greek word for subsist is

Strong's Concordance
sunistémi and sunistanó: consist , union, together with"


I say
Here is the thing folks ------if the people who are translating these scriptures add to or subtract from God's Word ---who is Jesus -----God gives very grave warning for doing that ---so the people I would think would be very careful in keeping all Scripture as close to what God inspired to be written down --they may use different words but if you look them up in the Language used ---Latin --Hebrew --Greek and Aramaic you will see they all have the same message -----the message must be the same -----


Adding To And Taking Away From The Word Of God

Revelation 22:18-19 ESV
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Deuteronomy 4:2 ESV
You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Proverbs 30:5-6 ESV
Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him .Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

Deuteronomy 12:32 ESV
“Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.

Proverbs 30:6 ESV
Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

I say
I wouldn't want to be the one fooling around with God's word ------it will not be good news for that person in the end --------

So, you see no differences between the three versions I quoted? To me they have three very different meanings. One is a stated fact, one contains an opinion and one is false.

That is your opinion ----your welcome to it ---but the message is the same in all the Scripture quoted ---do your research ---and all are truth ------there is no opinions quoted nor is there one that is false -----the message is the same in them all for me -----

You don't seem to believe God ----as God says this ---so I believe what God says ------not man

Instead of trying to decipher the meaning of Scripture by our own intellect ----We need to rely on The Holy Spirit to direct us into the real message of the Scripture ====

You will notice that the King James translators put "but" in italics to clearly show that it was inserted to clarify what was stated, and in fact it is fully justified. Translators have every right to clarify what is being translated provided we know which words they inserted (and the KJB shows all inserted words).

Now is there a huge difference between the Law of Moses and the Law of Christ? Absolutely. So was that "but" fully justified? Absolutely.

As to using multiple translations, that is certainly a matter of preference. But when you come right down to it, the excellecy of the Authorized Version is indisputable. Even its enemies admitted as much.

Yeah, the KJV has majesty and cadence that you don't really find in many other translations. It's also a literal translation.. not trying to paraphrase where NLT and NIV and such like will paraphrase.

I have heard the Bibles closely related are the Kjv, nkjv, Bishops Bible, nasb. I heard they all use the same copies to translate from. I think textus receptus and septuagint. I need to check on this though..

We need to look for other scripture telling of the difference between the law according to Moses and the law according to Christ.

We know from scripture that all scripture is truth, so we know Moses spoke the truth as well as Christ giving us truth. So what is different??

In Mathews 5 we are told you have been told", then Christ says "but I tell you". Before Christ tells us that, Christ explains that he does not change one tiny bit of what his father or the prophets tell us, so Christ tells us Moses speaks truth. The rest of that long chapter explains that Moses gave the law through the flesh but Christ gave that same law through the spirit. That explains John 1:17.

One verse isnt context unto itself. There is a greater text that gives the meaning and intent to that one verse.

I truly appreciate all the feedback; I learn something from each of them.

The problem I see with John 1:17 is this; the verse appears to be used to divide and build a fence between God the Father and God the Son. The Living Bible Translation (TLB) quoted before, designed to be easily understood in our modern culture, says it directly. We may then find a judgmental, rigid, unforgiving and unloving father and a grace filled, peaceful, gentle, loving “anything goes” Yeshua.

The central tenant of the Christian faith is that Jesus is God incarnate; there can be no division and there can be no contradiction.

I understand how a cursory reading of the First Testament can give that impression. I also believe that impression is inaccurate. God has always been loving and gentle with his people, caring for them and nurturing them, even under very different circumstances than those present during Jesus’ time. He protected his holiness then and Jesus will, in the future, protect his holiness in just the same way.

Jesus made it very clear; in faith, worship the Father.

God is a God of Love ------BUT -------He is also a God Of Righteous Anger --------and a God Of Justice ===

Don't know what bible your reading but God is not always gentle with His people ----

Read ==== Jonah who God put in the belly of the whale for disobedience -----


2 Samuel 6:6-7

New International Version

6 When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled.

7 The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 Samuel 24 -----God was angry at David and sent a plague on Israel ----and His wrath did this verse 15

15 So the Lord sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died.

I say -------Is God loving yes ---God is Love --but always Gentle -------No

Was Jesus always loving ---Yes -----was He always gentle with His people -------No ---------

Jesus showed His Righteous Anger when he turned over the money changers tables in the Temple yard ---

Jesus was definitely not gentle with the Pharisees calling them out many times for their arrogance and their man made traditions and adding their own laws to God's laws

Your "actual Greek translation" is in English. LOL I agree that the differences in these four translations highlights the difficulty of reading only one Bible version -- and accepting it as the only true version..

See my signature below concerning the KJV. There is a very good reason that there are many Bible translations: there is no one-to-one, direct correspondence between the Bible languages (plural) and the target language, in this case English. The vocabulary, verb tenses, idioms, etc. very often cannot be translated exactly, which is why translation is bot an art and a science. The goal, in my opinion, is to have the Bible reader understand what it says in the same way that the original people heard it. Of course, that is impossible, considering the huge gulf between how they lived thought, and communicated and how we live, think, and communicate.

There aren't that many different translations when you get right down to it. You have a few that are based on the the Textus Receptus and the Majority Text. Then you have all the rest which are based on a handful of questionable manuscripts. All those of the latter variety say essentially the same thing with varying degrees of liberties taken by the translators.

So on one hand you have the KJV and the NKJV based on the TR and a few based on the Majority Text; and all the rest on the other.

“It takes a lot of work to find truth.”

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king.

To this end was I born,

and for this cause came I into the world,

that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You can see Moses law v Christs word when you look at Jesus sermons

moses commanded this

“eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭21:24-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the idea of “ spirit “ is repay an offense with an equal offense that’s only just

“And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭19:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s like it is because the commandment they are receiving from Moses , is ordained of this one

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Therefore now go, ( speaking to Moses ) lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee:

nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them. And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭32:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So the law has that “ merciless “ and I forgiving viewpoint came because as soon as God spoke the commandments , Moses went up to get the tablets

and as he was getting them the people built a calf and worshipped it gave gods glory to it for delivering them from Egypt they had already broken the first and most important covenant commandment at that at point God did this

“This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven;

as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices By the space of forty years in the wilderness?

Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, And the star of your god Remphan, Figures which ye made to worship them: And I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

…..who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:37-38, 41-43, 53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all I mean to say is it’s contrary the gospel is from God filled with grace and truth in Christ.

When Jesus addresses Moses command which was ordained of angels who wouldn’t forgive transgression it’s contrary to the gospel which is about repentance and remission of sin so Jesus is asked about Moses doctrine a lot by the Pharisees and law teachers

Moses word ordained by the angel who wouldn’t pardon transgression given to the children of Israel who worshipped false gods

And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭19:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus speaks the truth

“Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

retaliate v dont retaliate

you retaliate “eye for an eye “ when there’s no pardoning of transgression so you repay sin for sin offense for offense of your hearing this dospostion

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That system is different from this disposition of Jesus the Lord who is God in the flesh

“Now a mediator is not a mediator of one,

but God is one.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods disposition who ordained the gospel not based on mans sin but based on Jesus righteousness and remission of sins

“Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:47-48, 50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He will forgive our sins so now we can freely repent and be saved from our sins the law puts sinners to death even if they repent

“And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

For Pre marital sex

“then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭22:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This could not be further from the gospel and word of Jesus Christ because it’s ordained of that angel who doesn’t forgive sin. my point is because of this the whole law is different it has a different disposition and purpose than does the gospel

Jesus came to save us the law was put in place to condemn sinners and hold them guilty giving them a consciousness of sin because that’s the ones who will grab on to a savior when he’s given the ones who know they are guilty

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So the knowledge of sin which cannot justify v

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

v the knowledge of righteousness in the gospel that saves souls and delivers us from bondage to sin

The two covenants are seperate we only need Jesus word

It takes a lot of work to find truth if one does not study the immediate context and view it in the light of the rest of Scripture.

I believe that God does not want the finding of Truth to be difficult. He gave us the Holy Spirit to lend understanding as well as comfort.

He also gave us each other and CC to do what we are doing right now.

You are correct, God does not want truth to be difficult to find. Thankfully, He meets us where we are.

But since beginning my walk with God I have been challenged to go deeper and deeper into my faith. With study, sometimes very difficult; I find deeper and deeper connections in His Word . These were not at all apparent when I first believed. They are enriching to my faith and leave me astonished at His depth. Others have gone much deeper than I will ever be able to go.

Those earlier students report that no one yet has reached the end of His truth.