How (Alleged, Natural) "Total Depravity" leads to (Actually, freely-chosen) Total Depravity.

Total Depravity is contrary to the Holy Bible, as we will see shortly. Let's define it first: "John Calvin used terms like "total depravity" to mean that, despite the ability of people to outwardly uphold the law, there remained an inward distortion which makes all human actions displeasing to God, whether or not they are outwardly good or bad.[14] Even after regeneration, every human action is mixed with evil.[15] Later Calvinist theologians were agreed on this, but the language of the Canons of Dort as well as the 17th-century Reformed theologians which followed it did not repeat the language of "total depravity", and arguably offer a more moderate view on the state of fallen humanity than Calvin.[14]"

So Total Depravity traditionally means:

(1) All (natural) human actions (before regeneration) are displeasing to God; and further,
(2) Even after regeneration, every (spiritual/super-natural) human action is mixed with evil.

Before Calvinist theology, the predominant theology in the West was Augustinian Theology:

(1) Augustinian theology held, there were venial sins and mortal sins. There are also naturally good actions which even non-believers do.
(2) In addition, after regeneration, by believing in Christ and being baptized, believers can do supernatural good works deserving rewards.

I will cite just one verse on point (1) and (2) to start off the discussion. Please share your thoughts.

Let's start with 2 first, as 2 is arguably the clearer point.

(2) "each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor." (1 Cor 3:8b)

Now the context shows this is believers laboring for the Lord, i.e. good works done after regeneration. My question is, if all good works are useless and valueless, or are even sins or mixed with sins, how is it possible that God considers them of such eternal value that He promises rewards for them? Repeated in verse 14: "14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward."

And a comparison with the Gospel shows these are the Heavenly Treasures the Lord told us to store in Mat 6. Matthew 6 also knows absolutely nothing of "Total Depravity" and on the contrary presumes believers especially, but even non-believers, can pray, work and fast.

(1) As for non-believers, Acts 10 shows that not all their actions are "totally depraved" or sinful: "30 So Cornelius said, “Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, 31 and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your alms are remembered in the sight of God." (Acts 10)

Since Cornelius was a naturally virtuous pagan/non-Christian, and God has Mercy on those who are such, he was led by an Angel to Christ.

(3) Finally, if everything anyone does, believer or unbeliever, is just a sin and displeasing to God, then why not just sin anyway? Why not kill children by abortion instead of caring for them? Why not commit sodomy instead of living in matrimony? Why not be indifferent to the poor instead of loving them? etc You see, if everything everyone does is totally depraved anyway, then one might as well act totally depraved.

Thoughts?

One has to be totally depraved to hang on to the lie of Total Depravity. All of TULIP is a lie.

Hebrews 11:6

Without trying to denigrate your arguments but to add some perspective, some thoughts:

1. In Calvin's understanding, when man fell, he was corrupted completely--meaning his body, soul, and spirit. He wasn't saying men will always be as bad as they can be, but that every aspect of man was affected--mind, will and heart.

2. He would also say that an altruistic act isn't necessarily from proper motives and would have an element of sin attached. If I give a large sum of money to the poor did I sin? What if you learned I did so to gain influence over them? Seemingly charitable acts aren't necessarily in themselves noble or done to glorify God.

3. Your last paragraph seems a little over the top. Christians not only are rewarded for good works, we also do them to please God. It is also a way to love our neighbors and, thus, love God. Sin is anathema to God's people and though we fail, we detest our sin. But mostly, our sin defames the name of God to Whom we owe all.
As far as non-believers goes, we still have laws that bring punishment and is enough to deter the majority of them.

When we understand and acknowledge God's foreknowledge, we will not be duped by the tulips.

1 Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

That is a great chapter with great promises to whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord.

Hello @XavierJesusLovesIndia, the doctrine of "total depravity" doesn't teach us that we are evil through and through, IOW, that we are UTTERLY depraved. That definition doesn't even describe Satan, who is, if nothing else, "good" at being "bad'

Instead, the doctrine of total depravity teaches that every part of us, body, mind, will and/or spirit is fallen/has been affected by the Fall. (I just noticed that @Cameron143 said the same)

Is it I'm not so sure. For instance, here are four different verses and passages that speak to the topic of man's depravity (or perhaps you see them differently somehow?).


Gotta go for now, but I hope to return later with more

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

~Deuteronomy

The doctrines of Original Sin and Total Depravity are (generally speaking) agreed upon by Romans Catholics and Protestants (Arminians and Calvinists), are they not

Original Sin is not total depravity. The Calvinist takes that teaching to a whole 'nother level. It is both hilarious and SAD because the same Calvinists will fuss over the words "world, all, every man, everyone" meaning everyone, but are adamant that "none righteous not even one" in Romans 3 means exactly that. Especially cause if you look at the Psalm that is being quoted, you will quickly see the truth:


3All have turned away,

they have together become corrupt;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.

4Will the workers of iniquity never learn?

They devour my people like bread;

they refuse to call upon the LORD.
There they are, overwhelmed with dread,

for God is in the company of the righteous.

Its David lamenting over wicked people but you need not read far to see there are righteous folks around, including David himself. Not only that, in Romans the context is that both JEWS and GENTILES are under sin and need redemption. No one should say that Cornelius was totally depraved, the Bible doesn't give that witness, he was a just man and because of that God sent someone to preach the Gospel to him. Salvation by works? No, its called "GOD RESISTS THE PROUD BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE"

Total Depravity = God is a bad architect.

Or a bad interior designer.

Or both. Whichever floats your boat.

Good works away from God will not save you ------unbelievers who do good works are doing their works because they think that if they do good that God will allow then into heaven or it makes them feel good --it is Self Driven ----NOT God Driven ------

Many Minister teach this ------they say as long as you love your neighbour and do good for them that God will save you -----so as long as you do good deeds --like serving at the soup kitchens ---going to church every week ----giving to the poor ---singing in the quire etc --you will get to Heaven --------this is False Doctrine

Any Good works done are suppose to be done to Glorify God not ourselves and the Good Works ---So when unbelievers do good works they are away from God and therefore their goods works are NOT Glorifying God ---they are glorifying themselves ----

When Believers who are right with God do good works their good works do Glorify God as their Saving Faith propels the person to do good deeds ------you do good deeds because you love----AGAPE God first and you are obeying God;s Command to love your neighbour and to help the poor ------ and you do it with joy ----it is never self driven --it is Spirit Driven by and through your Faith in God ------

And God rewards these acts of Good deeds done for His Glory

If I ever heard a preacher say that, I wouldn’t walk out of the congregation, I’d run!

All people (with few exceptions) are capable of civic good. Only God Christ and The Holy Spirit is capable of spiritual good, or actual good. We do spiritual good via the Spirit with in us. However if you notice How the letter to the church at Rome is written. God says he gave those who did not honour God over to reprobate minds. So I see how God can look upon those who do civic good and make an attempt to honour God, even if they do not understand what they are doing or who God is, with mercy and reveal himself to them. Think of not only Cornelius but also the Ethiopian. God sent messengers to them both. Not because they were good amd earned it, but because God is merciful, loving and kind. God could have choosen to look at all the things wrong with their actions or thoughts, but rather chose compassion.

Hi All. Thanks for the responses. Going to respond to Cameron as he covers most of the objections.

Agreed. As for Original Sin, which Deuteronomy also mentioned, we all agree with it. Bible says: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned." (Rom 5:12)

The Early Church understood this not only to mean (1) natural death is the penalty for the fall, which it is; but also (2) everyone, even little children, is born with a soul without supernatural life, i.e. the Holy Spirit, whereas if Adam had never sinned, they wouldn't be. This isn't a personal fault, but a sad reality. And the early Church also believed Baptism erases original sin and fills children with the Holy Spirit, but that's another issue. As for adults, we agree, that after faith in Christ, and Baptism if they've never been baptized, they are regenerated, filled with the Holy Spirit, and original sin is removed.

What is the will, basically? It is the power to choose good or evil. The will was weakened after the fall, but it was not totally corrupted. Once the Holy Spirit dwells in us, He strengthens us greatly against evil, just like our first parents were. But even in those who don't have the Holy Spirit yet, i.e. are still in original sin, they can do good works that aren't sins.

Would you disagree? They cannot of course do any good work deserving the Holy Spirit. That is a Grace given by Faith.

Ok, that much is true. But if someone says every altruistic act is always done from bad motives, that's problematic.

What did Christ Himself say about that? He said (1) those who do good works to please God will receive Reward from Him, but (2) those who do it to please themselves, or to glorify themselves in front of others, will have no reward from God.

"Mat 6: Giving to the Needy
1“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

And so, agreed that an altruistic act done with a wrong intention has no eternal reward (it is not a sin, though; it is only not rewarded). Intention matters. But the Good Act, done with the Good Intention (to Glorify God) deserves Eternal Reward.

What does that mean? That means God is so pleased with the Good Work (with Good Intention) that He rewards it. That means it cannot be a sin, nor can it be said that sins are always mixed with it. Otherwise, God would have to punish it.

Edit:

Btw, in just the previous chapter, God had said: "16In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven." so it doesn't mean there can be no public prayers, public fasting, or public alms-giving done by the Church, but rather that the INTENTION must be to Glorify God. Then, God rewards it.

And so, Christ wants us to do Good Works, and He wants us to do them with RIGHT INTENTION also, i.e. for the Love of God, to Glorify Almighty God, and never our own selves. If you disagree with any of this, please let me know and we'll discuss it.

Ok. Just taking the last for now, on unbelievers. what about evils the law does not proscribe today, like abortion, sodomy, lgbt etc. If it's all the same, and we're totally depraved anyway, unbelievers may think, why not do any of that?

Imo, non-believers (not unbelievers who have positively rejected Christ; non-believers who may not have sufficiently heard of Christ) are capable of natural good, including praying to the Unknown God Who made them and all things (Acts 17, Cornelius etc) and seeking after Him, fasting, giving to charity etc. These works won't save them, but God may have Mercy on them because of it, as someone also said above, and lead them to Christ, as He sent St. Peter to Cornelius and St. Philip to the Ethiopian Eunuch. Whereas if someone goes on committing abortions or sodomy or lgbt genital mutilation etc, or any mortal sins, God may leave them without Christ.

God Bless.

As to the last point, the Holy Spirit does also constrain sin the world. And the effects of morality in a home continues to influence people throughout their lives. It's well said that children learn what they live. So there are many things that influence unbelievers from becoming utterly sinful. And all these are reflections of the ongoing mercies of a gracious and loving God.
We have much more in common in our beliefs than not and I find your posts both informative and well considered. I just thought a fuller consideration of the topic would be profitable.
And I also appreciate the tenor of your discourse which engenders humility and values people before ideas.

I think you have this which comes to disciples of Jesus or christians

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods grace that doesn’t neglect the teachings of repentance and the good works of righteousness but through his grace in the gospel he’s able to completely forgive us first so we can approach him without fear of death

and then welcome and start teaching us repentance and righteousness but only because we have put our faith in him

and then you have this other grace born of the depravity of men and spread by those who embrace it that removes the teaching of repentance and good works accountability judgement for our deeds ect

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Jude‬ ‭1:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

awe have a term “ grace “ but Hods grace teaches us the truth that if we keep sinning we’re going to perish , he teaches us god is waiting with open arms for us to come home , he teaches us that even though we were sinners like everyone , he still loves us enough to die for us to offer salvation

My point is what doctrine we accept and preach is going to form the faith inside those who hear it if it’s a liscense for lasciviousness and being told “your saved anyways “ it’s a false doctrine because it’s removed the teachings of truth regarding repentance remission of sins , eternal judgement and the accountability of gods children on earth

If we just share the one and only gospel preached first by our lord he’s going to teach us by the gospel to repent and do good while teaching us that we are forgiven and accepted in him , while teaching us at God sees and loves us as his own even though we’ve done everything wrong

a grace that doesn’t omit the teachings of Christ are never going to lead us to lasciviousness but to repentance and salvstion

Im not sure this will make sense to your post but nevertheless

Jesus' Atonement changed things. All men now have the option to freely come to the foot of the Cross. This is what the Calvinists deny. This is the CORE GOSPEL that they corrupt and that is why their TULIP is vile and Satanic.

Yes brother but a covenant also includes and is conditioned by Gods word and promises like the pattern in the old law of Moses to Israel for their promised land

“And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people:and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

( a covenant has been made between God and the people of Israel through an angel and a mediator )

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24:7-8

The word of God is spoken and then after the people agree to the covenant he made and the blood of remission of the covenant is shed upon the word and people

See the new testament is using the patterns in the old to teach us how to best understand the new , like this

“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:16-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thats one way that helps us understand that the new covenant that Jesus spoke after his baptism , became of force after he died shed his blood and rose like a Will and testament it goes into effect after the testator dies but not before

he speaks his unchangeable word before he dies while he lives and makes his Will with his own words and then he dies and it goes into effect and no one can change anything in his Will , it’s forever. now the inheritance is divided by the legal Will of the testator and according to his own word while he lived

In other words jesus words are the eternal covenant he promised to bless all nations in Abraham

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the new covenant word of repentance and salvation

“Behold, the former things are come to pass,

and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭42:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people. My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭51:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24

“But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice:

for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭9:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭15:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬


And the New covenant blood which was shed after he and the disciples preached the gospel in Israel’s cities

“for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭26:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

After he died and rose he sent it to all to witness salvation to all people

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We aren’t making a covenant to perfectly obey every word of loses lest we be cursed and perish like the children of Israel agrees to obey everything in the book of Moses and we’re atoned for by animal blood that reminded them of sins yearly

A Christian’s covenant is to hear and believe the gospel and get baptized and be saved because we believe the promise of remission. And even that isn’t a “ rule “ by which we’re condemned but a blessing by which his promise is fulfilled by faith like the entire gospel is not to condemn us but save us through faith hearing and believing

So this is about "Calvinists"? I really don't know. At first I thought it was just about the words "Total Depravity". I try to respect what others believe. Now There are many things I disagree with them. I do know there own words they do not like be called "Calvinists" nor do they call themselves this. There words doing this its as if they believe trust "John Calvin" who was just a man". Not sure how else you would talk about it with out using the name which lol most never mean any disrespect. Way to many *ism for me.

Yet lol we know what we personally believe is the real truth huh