To anyone who disagrees with me

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TheLearner

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I would have to respectfully disagree. I have personally experienced the fulfilment of that very promise numerous times.
Having come from a Christian upbringing where I had a good general knowledge of the scriptures before I was actually converted, the LORD had to bring back to my remembrance those scriptures to teach me the True meaning of the Spiritual, not just the scripture memory-surface level meaning. That is where He led me to begin to connect the dots all through scripture to see the continuity.
Also, 1 John 2:27 States that we have no need for anyone to teach us (see vs.21) because we have received an anointing from the Father that teaches us all things, see also vs.20.
I understand that the teachers are there to teach what is unlearned, like Aquilla and Pricilla instructing Apollos, and pastors to oversee the general well-being of the flock of GOD.
Not that I do not need a teacher but that we are not solely dependent on man (Christian) teachers.
Good day brother, sister? and friend, iron sharpens iron so I am told, What I think I am seeing is confusion about Illumination and extreme Illumination. Basic or Biblical Illumination the Spirit directs us on how to apply a text to lives or walk in Christ fulfilling Eph 2:10. Extreme is thinking our interpretation is inspired on the level of Scripture.
 

TheLearner

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Good day brother, sister? and friend, iron sharpens iron so I am told, What I think I am seeing is confusion about Illumination and extreme Illumination. Basic or Biblical Illumination the Spirit directs us on how to apply a text to lives or walk in Christ fulfilling Eph 2:10. Extreme is thinking our interpretation is inspired on the level of Scripture.
 

TheLearner

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Enlightenment deals with understanding and applying knowledge already given, we call it illumination.

"

One passage that sometimes stirs controversy regarding illumination is John 14:26, “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” Jesus was speaking to His disciples in the upper room, giving them last instructions before His death. This special group of men was to be responsible for spreading the good news of Jesus Christ to the whole world. They had spent three and a half years with Him, watching His miracles and hearing His teachings. They would relay those things to the rest of the world, and would need God’s special help remembering those things accurately. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would teach them and remind them of what had been said, so they could give it to others (including the writing of the Gospels). This verse does not teach that the Spirit will do so with all believers (though there are other verses that speak of the Spirit’s illuminating work).
What is the Holy Spirit’s illuminating work in believers? Ephesians 1:17-18 tells us that the Spirit gives wisdom and revelation concerning Jesus Christ, and opens the eyes of understanding so we can know God’s purposes in our lives. In 1 Corinthians 2:10-13, God has revealed His plans for us by His Spirit, who teaches us spiritual things. The context here points to the Word of God as that which has been revealed. The Spirit of God will always point us to the Word of God for our instruction. As Jesus told His disciples in John 16:12-15, the Spirit simply repeats what the Father and the Son have already said. This repetition helps us remember and fully hear what God has already told us. Sometimes we have to hear things several times before we actually hear them. That’s where the Spirit comes in.

One thing that is sometimes overlooked in the discussion of illumination is the purpose of it. To hear some arguments, it would seem that the whole purpose of illumination is an accurate and academic understanding of God’s Word. There is no question that God desires us to accurately understand what He has given us. Words have meaning, and we must pay attention to the details in those words. If, however, we stop there, we simply have an academic understanding of facts or philosophies, which do no one any good.

Going back to Psalm 119, we find purpose statements connected with the illumination verses. “I will meditate on your wonders” (v. 27), “I will keep your law and obey it with all my heart” (v. 34), “that I may understand your statutes” (v. 125), “that I may live” (v. 144). The illumination always points to action. Why does God help us understand His Word? So we are able to live in its light. First John 1:6 challenges us, “If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.” We could paraphrase it to say, “If we say we’ve been enlightened, but still walk in the dark, we lie about understanding God’s Word.” The Spirit of God, who enlightens us to hear and understand God’s Word, then takes that knowledge and guides us in living it. Romans 8:14 says “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” The illuminating and leading work of the Holy Spirit in our lives is a confirmation that we are indeed children of God. "
https://www.gotquestions.org/biblical-illumination.html
 

TheLearner

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Psalm 119
Easy-to-Read Version
Aleph[a]
119 Great blessings belong to those who live pure lives!
They follow the Lord’s teachings.
2 Great blessings belong to those who follow his rules!
They seek him with all their heart.
3 They don’t do wrong.
They follow his ways.
4 Lord, you gave us your instructions
and told us to always obey them.
5 How I wish I could be more faithful
in obeying your laws!
6 Then I would never feel ashamed
when I look closely at your commands.
7 The more I understand how fair your laws are,
the more sincerely I will praise you.
8 I will obey your laws,
so please don’t leave me!

Beth
9 How can a young person live a pure life?
By obeying your word.
10 I try with all my heart to serve you.
Help me obey your commands.
11 I study your teachings very carefully
so that I will not sin against you.
12 Lord, you are worthy of praise!
Teach me your laws.
13 I will repeat the laws we have heard from you.
14 I enjoy following your rules
as much as others enjoy great riches.
15 I will study your instructions.
I will give thought to your way of life.
16 I enjoy your laws.
I will not forget your word.

Gimel
17 Be good to me, your servant,
so that I may live to obey your word.
18 Open my eyes so that I can see
all the wonderful things in your teachings.
19 I feel like a stranger visiting here on earth.
I need to know your commands.
Don’t keep them hidden from me.
20 I constantly feel a hunger
to understand your laws.
21 You tell the proud how angry you are with them.
All those who refuse to obey your word are cursed.
22 Don’t let me be ashamed and embarrassed.
I have obeyed your rules.
23 Even if rulers say bad things about me,
I am your servant,
and I continue to study your laws.
24 Your rules make me happy.
They give me good advice.

Daleth
25 I lie here like a dying man.
Say the word, and I will live again.
26 I told you about my life, and you answered me.
Now, teach me your laws.
27 Help me understand your instructions,
and I will think about your wonderful teachings.[c]
28 I am sad and tired.
Say the word, and make me strong again.
29 Don’t let me live a lie.
Guide me with your teachings.
30 I have chosen to be loyal to you.

I respect your laws.
31 I follow your rules closely, Lord.
Don’t let me be put to shame.
32 I do my best to follow your commands,
because you are the one who gives me the desire.

He
33 Lord, teach me your laws,
and I will always follow them.
34 Help me understand your teachings,
and I will follow them.

Obeying them will be my greatest desire.
35 Help me follow your commands,
because that makes me happy.
36 Give me the desire to follow your rules,
not the desire to get rich.
37 Don’t let me look at worthless things.
Help me live your way.
38 Do what you promised me, your servant,
so that people will respect you.
39 Take away the shame I fear.
Your laws are good.
40 See how much I want to obey your instructions!
Be good to me, and let me live.
 

TheLearner

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Waw
41 Lord, show me your faithful love.
Save me, as you promised.
42 Then I will have an answer for those who make fun of me
for trusting what you say.
43 Let me always say what is true.
I depend on your judgment to be fair.
44 I will follow your teachings forever and ever.
45 So I will live in freedom,
because I do my best to know your instructions.
46 I will discuss your rules with kings,
and no one will embarrass me.
47 What joy your commands give me!
How I love them!
48 Not only do I love your commands, but I also honor them.
I will study your laws.

Zain
49 Remember your promise to me, your servant.
It gives me hope.
50 You comfort me in my suffering,
because your promise gives me new life.
51 People full of pride are always making fun of me,
but I have not stopped following your teachings.
52 I remember the laws you gave us long ago, Lord,
and they bring me comfort.
53 I am overcome with anger when I see wicked people,
who have stopped following your teachings.
54 Your laws are the songs I sing
wherever I am living.
55 Lord, in the night I remembered your name,
and I obeyed your teachings.
56 This happened because I carefully obey your instructions.

Heth
57 Lord, I decided that my duty is to obey your commandments.
58 I beg you with all my heart,
be kind to me, as you promised.
59 I thought very carefully about my life,
and I decided to follow your rules.
60 Without wasting any time,
I hurried back to obey your commands.
61 The wicked tried to trap me,
but I have not forgotten your teachings.
62 In the middle of the night, I get up to thank you
because your laws are so fair.
63 I am a friend to everyone who worships you.
I am a friend to everyone who obeys your instructions.
64 Lord, your faithful love fills the earth.
Teach me your laws.

Teth
65 Lord, you did good things for me, your servant.
You did what you promised to do.
66 Give me the knowledge to make wise decisions.
I trust your commands.
67 Before I suffered, I did many wrong things.
But now I carefully obey everything you say.
68 You are good, and you do good things.
Teach me your laws.
69 People full of pride made up lies about me.
But I keep obeying your instructions with all my heart.
70 Those people are so stupid that they care for nothing,
but I enjoy studying your teachings.
71 Suffering was good for me;
I learned your laws.
72 Your teachings are worth more to me
than a thousand pieces of silver and gold.

Yod
73 With your hands you made me and helped me become what I am.
Now help me learn and understand your commands.
74 Your followers will see me and be happy,
because I trust in your word.
75 Lord, I know that your decisions are fair,
and you were right to punish me.
76 Now comfort me with your faithful love,
as you promised.
77 Comfort me and let me live.
I enjoy your teachings.
78 Bring shame on those proud people who lied about me.
All I want to do is study your instructions.
79 Let your followers come back to me
so that they may learn your rules.
80 Let me obey your laws perfectly
so that I will not be ashamed.

Kaph
81 I feel weaker and weaker as I wait for you to save me.
But I put my trust in your word.
82 I keep looking for what you promised, but my eyes are feeling tired.
When will you comfort me?
83 Even when I am like a dried wineskin on the trash pile,
I will not forget your laws.
84 How long must I wait for you
to punish those who persecute me?
85 Proud people have tried to trap me
and make me disobey your teachings.
86 All your commands can be trusted.
Those people are wrong to persecute me.
Help me!
87 They have almost destroyed me,
but I have not stopped obeying your instructions.
88 Show me your faithful love and let me live.
I will do whatever you say.
 

TheLearner

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Lamedh
89 Lord, your word continues forever in heaven.
90 You are loyal forever and ever.
You made the earth, and it still stands.
91 All things continue today because of your laws.
Like slaves, they all obey you.
92 If I had not found joy in your teachings,
my suffering would have destroyed me.
93 I will never forget your commands,
because through them you gave me new life.
94 I am yours, so save me!
I have done my best to know your instructions.
95 The wicked tried to destroy me,
but your rules made me wise.
96 Everything has its limits,
except your commands.

Mem
97 Oh, how I love your teachings!
I talk about them all the time.
98 Your commands are always with me,
and they make me wiser than my enemies.
99 I am wiser than all my teachers,
because I study your rules.
100 I understand more than those who are older,
because I obey your instructions.
101 I have avoided every path that leads to evil
so that I could obey your word.
102 You are my teacher,
so I will always do whatever you decide.
103 Your words are so sweet to me,
like the taste of honey!
104 I gain understanding from your instructions,
so I hate anything that leads people the wrong way.

Nun
105 Your word is like a lamp that guides my steps,
a light that shows the path I should take.
106 Your laws are good and fair.
I have promised to obey them, and I will keep my promise.
107 Lord, I have suffered for a long time.
Say the word, and I will live again![d]
108 Lord, accept the praise I want to give you,
and teach me your laws.
109 My life is always in danger,
but I have not forgotten your teachings.
110 The wicked try to trap me,
but I have not disobeyed your instructions.
111 The rules you have given me to follow will be mine forever.
They give me great joy.
112 More than anything I want to obey your laws always,
until the end of my life.

Samekh
113 Lord, I hate those who are not completely loyal to you,
but I love your teachings.
114 Hide me and protect me.
I trust what you say.
115 Don’t come near me, you who are evil,
so that I can obey my God’s commands.
116 Support me, Lord, as you promised, and I will live.
I trust in you, so don’t disappoint me.
117 Help me and I will be saved.
And I will always give attention to your laws.
118 You reject all who don’t obey your laws,
because they are liars and did not do what they said.
119 You throw away the wicked of this world like trash.
So I love your rules.
120 I am shaking with fear before you.
I fear and respect your judgments.

Ain
121 I have done what is right and good.
Don’t let me fall into the hands of those who want to hurt me.
122 Promise to be good to me, your servant.
Don’t let those proud people do harm to me.
123 I have worn out my eyes looking for your help,
waiting for you to save me, as you promised.
124 Show your faithful love to me, your servant.
Teach me your laws.
125 I am your servant.
Give me wisdom to understand your rules.
126 Lord, it is time for you to do something.
The people do what is against your teachings.
127 I love your commands more than gold,
more than the purest gold.
128 I carefully obey all your commands.
So I hate anything that leads people the wrong way.

Pe
129 Lord, your rules are wonderful.
That is why I follow them.
130 As people understand your word, it brings light to their lives.
Your word makes even simple people wise.
131 My desire to hear your commands is so strong
that I wait with open mouth, gasping for breath.
132 Look at me, and be kind to me,
just as you always are to those who love your name.
133 Guide me, as you promised.
Don’t let evil rule over me.
134 Save me from those who want to hurt me,
and I will obey your instructions.
135 Accept your servant,
and teach me your laws.
136 I have cried a river of tears
because people don’t obey your teachings.

Tsadhe
137 Lord, you do what is right,
and your decisions are fair.
138 The rules you have given us are right.
We can trust them completely.
139 Something that really upsets me is the thought
that my enemies ignore your commands.
140 I love your word.
Time and again it has been proven true.
141 I am young, and people don’t respect me.
But I have not forgotten your instructions.
142 Your goodness is forever,
and your teachings can be trusted.
143 Even though I have troubles and hard times,
your commands give me joy.
144 Your rules are always right.
Help me understand them so that I can live.

Qoph
145 Lord, I call to you with all my heart.
Answer me, and I will obey your laws.
146 I call to you.
Save me, and I will obey your rules.
147 I get up early in the morning to pray to you.
I trust what you say.
148 Late into the night I stay awake
to think about your word.
149 I know your love is true, so listen to me.
Lord, you always do what is right, so let me live.
150 Here come those who have evil plans to hurt me.
They live far away from your teachings.
151 But you are near me, Lord,
and all your commands can be trusted.
152 Long ago, I learned from your rules
that you made them to last forever.
Waw
41 Lord, show me your faithful love.
Save me, as you promised.
42 Then I will have an answer for those who make fun of me
for trusting what you say.
43 Let me always say what is true.
I depend on your judgment to be fair.
44 I will follow your teachings forever and ever.
45 So I will live in freedom,
because I do my best to know your instructions.
46 I will discuss your rules with kings,
and no one will embarrass me.
47 What joy your commands give me!
How I love them!
48 Not only do I love your commands, but I also honor them.
I will study your laws.

Zain
49 Remember your promise to me, your servant.
It gives me hope.
50 You comfort me in my suffering,
because your promise gives me new life.
51 People full of pride are always making fun of me,
but I have not stopped following your teachings.
52 I remember the laws you gave us long ago, Lord,
and they bring me comfort.
53 I am overcome with anger when I see wicked people,
who have stopped following your teachings.
54 Your laws are the songs I sing
wherever I am living.
55 Lord, in the night I remembered your name,
and I obeyed your teachings.
56 This happened because I carefully obey your instructions.

Heth
57 Lord, I decided that my duty is to obey your commandments.
58 I beg you with all my heart,
be kind to me, as you promised.
59 I thought very carefully about my life,
and I decided to follow your rules.
60 Without wasting any time,
I hurried back to obey your commands.
61 The wicked tried to trap me,
but I have not forgotten your teachings.
62 In the middle of the night, I get up to thank you
because your laws are so fair.
63 I am a friend to everyone who worships you.
I am a friend to everyone who obeys your instructions.
64 Lord, your faithful love fills the earth.
Teach me your laws.

Teth
65 Lord, you did good things for me, your servant.
You did what you promised to do.
66 Give me the knowledge to make wise decisions.
I trust your commands.
67 Before I suffered, I did many wrong things.
But now I carefully obey everything you say.
68 You are good, and you do good things.
Teach me your laws.
69 People full of pride made up lies about me.
But I keep obeying your instructions with all my heart.
70 Those people are so stupid that they care for nothing,
but I enjoy studying your teachings.
71 Suffering was good for me;
I learned your laws.
72 Your teachings are worth more to me
than a thousand pieces of silver and gold.

Yod
73 With your hands you made me and helped me become what I am.
Now help me learn and understand your commands.
74 Your followers will see me and be happy,
because I trust in your word.
75 Lord, I know that your decisions are fair,
and you were right to punish me.
76 Now comfort me with your faithful love,
as you promised.
77 Comfort me and let me live.
I enjoy your teachings.
78 Bring shame on those proud people who lied about me.
All I want to do is study your instructions.
79 Let your followers come back to me
so that they may learn your rules.
80 Let me obey your laws perfectly
so that I will not be ashamed.

Kaph
81 I feel weaker and weaker as I wait for you to save me.
But I put my trust in your word.
82 I keep looking for what you promised, but my eyes are feeling tired.
When will you comfort me?
83 Even when I am like a dried wineskin on the trash pile,
I will not forget your laws.
84 How long must I wait for you
to punish those who persecute me?
85 Proud people have tried to trap me
and make me disobey your teachings.
86 All your commands can be trusted.
Those people are wrong to persecute me.
Help me!
87 They have almost destroyed me,
but I have not stopped obeying your instructions.
88 Show me your faithful love and let me live.
I will do whatever you say.
 

TheLearner

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Resh
153 Look at my suffering and rescue me.
I have not forgotten your teachings.
154 Argue my case, and set me free.
Let me live, as you promised.
155 The wicked have no hope of being saved,
because they don’t follow your laws.
156 Lord, you are very kind.
You always do what is right, so let me live.
157 I have many enemies trying to hurt me,
but I have not stopped following your rules.
158 I look at those traitors and hate what I see,
because they refuse to do what you say.
159 See how much I love your instructions!
Lord, I know your love is true, so let me live.
160 Every word you say can be trusted.
Your laws are fair and will last forever.

Shin
161 Powerful leaders attack me for no reason,
but the only thing I fear is your command.
162 Your word makes me happy,
like someone who has found a great treasure.
163 I hate lies; they make me sick!
But I love your teachings.
164 Seven times a day I praise you
because your laws are fair.
165 Those who love your teachings will find true peace.
Nothing can make them fall.
166 Lord, I am waiting for you to save me.
I obey your commands.
167 I follow your rules.
I love them very much.
168 I obey all your instructions and rules,
because you know everything I do.

Taw
169 Lord, listen to my cry for help.
Make me wise, as you promised.
170 Listen to my prayer.
Save me, as you promised.
171 I will burst into songs of praise,
because you have taught me your laws.
172 Let my voice sing about your word,
because all your commands are good.
173 I have chosen to follow your instructions,
so reach out and help me!
174 Lord, I want you to save me.
Your teachings make me happy.
175 Let me live to praise you.
Let me find the help I need in your laws.
176 I have wandered away like a lost sheep.
Come and find me.
I am your servant,
and I have not forgotten your commands.
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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"
5. The Spirit’s ministry of illumination does not ensure inerrant interpretation.

As Peter indicates in 2 Peter 3:14-16, the correct understanding of a biblical text is not always easy to achieve. There are “things hard to understand” (v. 16), especially for those of us who are far removed from the original recipients of Scripture’s writings. Just as spiritual perfection is unattainable in this life (see Paul’s admission in Phil 3:12-14), so is absolute understanding of God’s word. Illumination is needed precisely because of this. It does not impart perfect knowledge, but it does empower us in the pursuit of constant improvement (2 Pet 3:18). In fact, recipients of this special ministry still remain under the need for reproof and correction (2 Tim 3:16-17).

7. The Spirit’s ministry of illumination does not negate the need for pastor-teachers.

The same Scriptures that teach the doctrine of illumination also teach the necessity of pastor-teachers for the equipping of believers (cf. 1 Cor 12:28-29; Eph 4:11-12; 1 Tim 3:2). The two doctrines need not be pitted against one another. In fact, they are closely intertwined. The Spirit’s ministry of illumination works hand-in-glove with the pastor’s expository ministry of the word. Of this relationship Robert Thomas writes,

Undoubtedly the Holy Spirit does illuminate believers by a direct ministry to them. But to say that He does not use means to do so is also anti-scriptural. First Corinthians 12:28, 29 and Ephesians 4:11, 12 are extremely specific in showing that teaching is a prominent gift of the Spirit to the body of Christ and that teachers have a major role in promoting the growth of this body. These teachers teach through an oral ministry, but they also teach through a written ministry. A rich storehouse of Spirit-given teaching based on the Bible is available in the writings of these teachers whom Christ has given to His church, and it should not be ignored. . . . It should not be viewed as data that excludes what the Spirit teaches directly, but should be used alongside it as a supplement to it.[3]

8. The Spirit’s ministry of illumination does not negate the need for disciplined study.
As Paul states in 2 Timothy 2:15, “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.” Certainly, any reader of Scripture can grieve the Spirit through disobedience (Eph 4:30). But for the reader who walks by the Spirit (Gal 5:16), prays diligently (Ps 119:18, 33, 144), and seeks to be a doer of the word (Jas 1:22-25), his diligent efforts to study must never be construed as competition to the Spirit’s work.[4]"
https://blog.tms.edu/what-is-the-holy-spirits-role-in-bible-study
 

TheLearner

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I would have to respectfully disagree. I have personally experienced the fulfilment of that very promise numerous times.
Having come from a Christian upbringing where I had a good general knowledge of the scriptures before I was actually converted, the LORD had to bring back to my remembrance those scriptures to teach me the True meaning of the Spiritual, not just the scripture memory-surface level meaning. That is where He led me to begin to connect the dots all through scripture to see the continuity.
Also, 1 John 2:27 States that we have no need for anyone to teach us (see vs.21) because we have received an anointing from the Father that teaches us all things, see also vs.20.
I understand that the teachers are there to teach what is unlearned, like Aquilla and Pricilla instructing Apollos, and pastors to oversee the general well-being of the flock of GOD.
Not that I do not need a teacher but that we are not solely dependent on man (Christian) teachers.
Following some people's logic here, friend, brother If the Holy Spirit is giving people the exact meaning of a text, then we do not need to own a Bible at all. For example, the King did not remember a dream he had, Daniel Prayed to God for the dream and for its meaning. Thus taking some people's arguments to it logical conclusion, We need only pray when we want an answer to anything. God will show the texts involved in our mind with the correct interpretation, understanding.

Daniel 2
Easy-to-Read Version
Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream
2 During Nebuchadnezzar’s second year as king, he had dreams. They bothered him, and he could not sleep. 2 So the king called his wise men to come to him. They used magic and watched the stars. They did this to try to interpret dreams and to learn what would happen in the future. The king wanted them to tell him what he had dreamed, so they came in and stood in front of him.

3 Then the king said to them, “I had a dream that bothers me. I want to know what it means.”

4 Then the Chaldeans answered the king. They spoke Aramaic[a] and said, “King, live forever! Please tell your dream to us, your servants, and then we will tell you what it means.”

5 Then King Nebuchadnezzar said to them, “No, you must tell me the dream, and then you must tell me what it means. If you don’t, I will give an order for you to be cut into pieces. And I will order your houses to be destroyed until they are nothing but piles of dust and ashes. 6 But if you tell me my dream and explain its meaning, I will give you gifts, rewards, and great honor. So tell me about my dream and what it means.”

7 Again the wise men said to the king, “Please, Sir, tell us about the dream, and we will tell you what it means.”

8 Then King Nebuchadnezzar answered, “I know that you are trying to get more time. You know that I meant what I said. 9 You know that you will be punished if you don’t tell me about my dream. So you have all agreed to lie to me. You are hoping for more time so that I will forget what I want you to do. Now tell me the dream. If you can tell me the dream, I will know that you can tell me what it really means.”

10 The Chaldeans answered the king. They said, “There is not a man on earth who can do what the king is asking! No king has ever asked the wise men, the men who do magic, or the Chaldeans to do something like this. Not even the greatest and most powerful king has ever asked his wise men to do such a thing. 11 The king is asking something that is too hard to do. Only the gods could tell the king his dream and what it means. But the gods don’t live with people.”

12 When the king heard that, he became very angry. So he gave an order for all the wise men of Babylon to be killed. 13 King Nebuchadnezzar’s order to kill all the wise men was announced. The king’s men were sent to look for Daniel and his friends to kill them.

14 Arioch was the commander of the king’s guards. He was going to kill the wise men of Babylon, but Daniel talked to him. Daniel spoke politely to Arioch 15 and said, “Why did the king order such a severe punishment?”

Then Arioch explained the whole story about the king’s dreams, and Daniel understood. 16 When Daniel heard the story, he went to King Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel asked the king to give him some more time. Then he would tell the king what the dream meant.

17 So Daniel went to his house. He explained the whole story to his friends Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah. 18 Daniel asked his friends to pray to the God of heaven that God would be kind to them and help them understand this secret. Then Daniel and his friends would not be killed with the other wise men of Babylon.

19 During the night, God explained the secret to Daniel in a vision. Then Daniel praised the God of heaven. 20 He said,

“Praise God’s name forever and ever!
Power and wisdom belong to him.
21 He changes the times and seasons.
He gives power to kings,
and he takes their power away.
He gives wisdom to people, so they become wise.
He lets people learn things and become wise.
22 He knows hidden secrets that are hard to understand.
Light lives with him,
so he knows what is in the dark and secret places.
23 God of my ancestors, I thank you and praise you.
You gave me wisdom and power.
You told us what we asked for.
You told us about the king’s dream.”

Daniel Tells What the Dream Means
24 Then Daniel went to Arioch, the man who King Nebuchadnezzar had chosen to kill the wise men of Babylon. Daniel said to Arioch, “Don’t kill the wise men of Babylon. Take me to the king. I will tell him what his dream means.”

25 So very quickly, Arioch took Daniel to the king. Arioch said to the king, “I have found a man among the captives from Judah who can tell the king what his dream means.”

26 The king asked Daniel (Belteshazzar) a question. He said, “Are you able to tell me about my dream, and what it means?”

27 Daniel answered, “King Nebuchadnezzar, no wise man, no man who does magic, and no Chaldean could tell the king the secret things he has asked about. 28 But there is a God in heaven who tells secret things. God has given King Nebuchadnezzar dreams to show him what will happen later. This was your dream, and this is what you saw while lying on your bed: 29 King, as you were lying there on your bed, you began thinking about what might happen in the future. God can tell people about secret things—he has shown you what will happen in the future. 30 God also told this secret to me, not because I have greater wisdom than other men, but so that you, king, may know what it means. In that way you will understand what went through your mind.
 

MessengerofTruth

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Following some people's logic here, friend, brother If the Holy Spirit is giving people the exact meaning of a text, then we do not need to own a Bible at all. For example, the King did not remember a dream he had, Daniel Prayed to God for the dream and for its meaning. Thus taking some people's arguments to it logical conclusion, We need only pray when we want an answer to anything. God will show the texts involved in our mind with the correct interpretation, understanding.

Daniel 2
Easy-to-Read Version
Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream
2 During Nebuchadnezzar’s second year as king, he had dreams. They bothered him, and he could not sleep. 2 So the king called his wise men to come to him. They used magic and watched the stars. They did this to try to interpret dreams and to learn what would happen in the future. The king wanted them to tell him what he had dreamed, so they came in and stood in front of him.

3 Then the king said to them, “I had a dream that bothers me. I want to know what it means.”

4 Then the Chaldeans answered the king. They spoke Aramaic[a] and said, “King, live forever! Please tell your dream to us, your servants, and then we will tell you what it means.”

5 Then King Nebuchadnezzar said to them, “No, you must tell me the dream, and then you must tell me what it means. If you don’t, I will give an order for you to be cut into pieces. And I will order your houses to be destroyed until they are nothing but piles of dust and ashes. 6 But if you tell me my dream and explain its meaning, I will give you gifts, rewards, and great honor. So tell me about my dream and what it means.”

7 Again the wise men said to the king, “Please, Sir, tell us about the dream, and we will tell you what it means.”

8 Then King Nebuchadnezzar answered, “I know that you are trying to get more time. You know that I meant what I said. 9 You know that you will be punished if you don’t tell me about my dream. So you have all agreed to lie to me. You are hoping for more time so that I will forget what I want you to do. Now tell me the dream. If you can tell me the dream, I will know that you can tell me what it really means.”

10 The Chaldeans answered the king. They said, “There is not a man on earth who can do what the king is asking! No king has ever asked the wise men, the men who do magic, or the Chaldeans to do something like this. Not even the greatest and most powerful king has ever asked his wise men to do such a thing. 11 The king is asking something that is too hard to do. Only the gods could tell the king his dream and what it means. But the gods don’t live with people.”

12 When the king heard that, he became very angry. So he gave an order for all the wise men of Babylon to be killed. 13 King Nebuchadnezzar’s order to kill all the wise men was announced. The king’s men were sent to look for Daniel and his friends to kill them.

14 Arioch was the commander of the king’s guards. He was going to kill the wise men of Babylon, but Daniel talked to him. Daniel spoke politely to Arioch 15 and said, “Why did the king order such a severe punishment?”

Then Arioch explained the whole story about the king’s dreams, and Daniel understood. 16 When Daniel heard the story, he went to King Nebuchadnezzar. Daniel asked the king to give him some more time. Then he would tell the king what the dream meant.

17 So Daniel went to his house. He explained the whole story to his friends Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah. 18 Daniel asked his friends to pray to the God of heaven that God would be kind to them and help them understand this secret. Then Daniel and his friends would not be killed with the other wise men of Babylon.

19 During the night, God explained the secret to Daniel in a vision. Then Daniel praised the God of heaven. 20 He said,

“Praise God’s name forever and ever!
Power and wisdom belong to him.
21 He changes the times and seasons.
He gives power to kings,
and he takes their power away.
He gives wisdom to people, so they become wise.
He lets people learn things and become wise.
22 He knows hidden secrets that are hard to understand.
Light lives with him,
so he knows what is in the dark and secret places.
23 God of my ancestors, I thank you and praise you.
You gave me wisdom and power.
You told us what we asked for.
You told us about the king’s dream.”

Daniel Tells What the Dream Means
24 Then Daniel went to Arioch, the man who King Nebuchadnezzar had chosen to kill the wise men of Babylon. Daniel said to Arioch, “Don’t kill the wise men of Babylon. Take me to the king. I will tell him what his dream means.”

25 So very quickly, Arioch took Daniel to the king. Arioch said to the king, “I have found a man among the captives from Judah who can tell the king what his dream means.”

26 The king asked Daniel (Belteshazzar) a question. He said, “Are you able to tell me about my dream, and what it means?”

27 Daniel answered, “King Nebuchadnezzar, no wise man, no man who does magic, and no Chaldean could tell the king the secret things he has asked about. 28 But there is a God in heaven who tells secret things. God has given King Nebuchadnezzar dreams to show him what will happen later. This was your dream, and this is what you saw while lying on your bed: 29 King, as you were lying there on your bed, you began thinking about what might happen in the future. God can tell people about secret things—he has shown you what will happen in the future. 30 God also told this secret to me, not because I have greater wisdom than other men, but so that you, king, may know what it means. In that way you will understand what went through your mind.
Totally agree God uses people for sure. He can even use a donkey. I am not throwing out the idea that we don't need the 5-fold ministry of the saints. I am saying that GOD is able to lead an individual apart from having a leader in front of them, such as books written by men or even mans commandments and traditions. If I am misunderstood in my former response and what I have stated has no relevance to your point, feel free to disregard me.
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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Brighton, MI
Yes some people have been given wisdom and they write about it.. But in the end anything, anybody writes has to be put to the test of comparing it with what is revealed in the Holy Bible... So in the end all we need to know is in the Holy Bible anyway..
Early Christians depended on oral tradition, not complete printed Bibles like we have today. Paul tells the church to hold to the traditions they were taught. The printing press came about hundreds of years later. Very few people even owned hand written copies of the O.T.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Warning against Idleness
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Head Coverings
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

2 Timothy 4:12-14
Common English Bible
12 I sent Tychicus to Ephesus. 13 When you come, bring along the coat I left with Carpus in Troas. Also bring the scrolls and especially the parchments. 14 Alexander, the craftsman who works with metal, has really hurt me. The Lord will pay him back for what he has done.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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What books, dvds have you learned your theology, doctrines from? Publishers. I do not want to hear you only learned from the Bible, that seems pridfull to me.
My momma used to always plop little Oyster down in front of the TV and make him watch Jack VanImpe viddys.

That was a long time ago. The last set of messages I listened to were Revelation videos by Allen Nolan. I also listened to an audiobook of the Book of Enoch. I have sat under the tutelage of Calvinists, Holy Rollers, Tongue Talkers, and Mennonites.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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My momma used to always plop little Oyster down in front of the TV and make him watch Jack VanImpe viddys.

That was a long time ago. The last set of messages I listened to were Revelation videos by Allen Nolan. I also listened to an audiobook of the Book of Enoch. I have sat under the tutelage of Calvinists, Holy Rollers, Tongue Talkers, and Mennonites.
Unless I'm mistaken, one more denomination and you get a free set of steak knives.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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What books, dvds have you learned your theology, doctrines from? Publishers. I do not want to hear you only learned from the Bible, that seems pridfull to me.
Disagrees with you on what?


Well, if anyone disagrees with me, let me know what coloring book you have been studying.... is that kind of the gist of your post?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
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Disagrees with you on what?


Well, if anyone disagrees with me, let me know what coloring book you have been studying.... is that kind of the gist of your post?
Were we allowed coloring books? Wish I had known that at the outset.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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Early Christians depended on oral tradition, not complete printed Bibles like we have today. Paul tells the church to hold to the traditions they were taught. The printing press came about hundreds of years later. Very few people even owned hand written copies of the O.T.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Warning against Idleness
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Head Coverings
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

2 Timothy 4:12-14
Common English Bible
12 I sent Tychicus to Ephesus. 13 When you come, bring along the coat I left with Carpus in Troas. Also bring the scrolls and especially the parchments. 14 Alexander, the craftsman who works with metal, has really hurt me. The Lord will pay him back for what he has done.
There is no teaching in the Bible telling people to wear head coverings.. And yes the Word of God came from Paul orally He taught the gentiles and wrote His teachings down in His letters.. So again the Bible is all that one needs to know the will of God in relation to ones salvation..
 

TheLearner

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There is no teaching in the Bible telling people to wear head coverings.. And yes the Word of God came from Paul orally He taught the gentiles and wrote His teachings down in His letters.. So again the Bible is all that one needs to know the will of God in relation to ones salvation..
2 Samuel 15:30
David’s Prayer Against Ahithophel
David walked up the path to the Mount of Olives. He was crying, his head was covered, and he went without sandals on his feet. All the people with David also covered their heads and were crying as they walked with him.

Isaiah 29:10
The Lord will make you sleepy. He will close your eyes. (The prophets are your eyes.) He will cover your heads. (The prophets are your heads.)

1 Corinthians 11:5
But every woman who prays or prophesies should have her head covered. If her head is not covered, she brings shame to her head. Then she is the same as a woman who has her head shaved.

1 Corinthians 11:10
So that is why a woman should have her head covered with something that shows she is under authority. Also, she should do this because of the angels.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
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“Whatever you do, do everything for the glory of God.” (1 Corinthians 10:31)

Mark 12:30, Rom 12:1-2, Proverbs 1:29, 3:13,4:6-7, 18:17; Acts 17:11

I John 4:1, Acts 1:2-3, I peter 3:15, 2 Cor 10:5, Jude 1:3, Phil 1:16

From ESV

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/religious-landscape-study/educational-distribution/college/


Jeremiah 31:33
“In the future I will make this agreement with the people of Israel.” This message is from the Lord. “I will put my teachings in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Matthew 22:37
Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’

1 Corinthians 7:37
But another man might be more sure in his mind. There may be no need for marriage, so he is free to do what he wants. If he has decided in his own heart not to marry his fiancée, he is doing the right thing.

Hebrews 8:10 & Hebrews 10:16
This is the new agreement I will give the people of Israel. I will give this agreement in the future, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds, and I will write my laws on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Jeremiah 17:10
But I am the Lord, and I can look into a person’s heart. I can test a person’s mind and decide what each one should have. I can give each person the right payment for what they do.

Isaiah 46:8
“Sinners, change your heart and mind. Think about this again. Remember it and be strong.

1 Samuel 2:35
And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.

1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

Daniel 5:20
But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:

Romans 8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18:6
And if a Levite come from any of thy gates out of all Israel, where he sojourned, and come with all the desire of his mind unto the place which the Lord shall choose;

1 Samuel 2:35
And I will raise me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.


1 Chronicles 22:7
And David said to Solomon, My son, as for me, it was in my mind to build an house unto the name of the Lord my God:

remember what God said,

1 Chronicles 28:9
And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.


Isaiah 26:3
Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

Jeremiah 44:21
The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the Lord remember them, and came it not into his mind?

Lamentations 3:21
This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.

Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Acts 20:19
Serving the Lord with all humility of mind,

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...is having a mind,what's true and what's false.


Proverbs 1:7 ESV / 432 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.
https://www.openbible.info/topics/wisdom_and_knowledge

Psalm 111:10 ESV / 983 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; all those who practice it have a good understanding. His praise endures forever!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/bib.../what-does-the-bible-say-about-knowledge.html
https://www.openbible.info/topics/fear_of_the_lord
https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/rhy7d0
One who does not Love God with all their mind is disobedant and therefore sinning.


"My people are destroyed because of a lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I reject you from being a priest to me, and since you have forgotten the law of your God, I will also forget your children"(Hosea 4:6).

https://jeffmikels.org/posts/reasons-for-christian-anti-intellectualism-1-simplicity/
https://jeffmikels.org/posts/loving-god-with-your-mind-introduction/
https://jeffmikels.org/posts/reasons-for-christian-anti-intellectualism-1-simplicity/
https://jeffmikels.org/posts/reason...lectualism-1-simplicity-young-earth-creation/
https://jeffmikels.org/posts/reason...ectualism-2-over-emphasis-on-spiritual-truth/
https://jeffmikels.org/posts/reason...inking-my-god-is-the-source-of-understanding/
https://jeffmikels.org/posts/loving-god-with-your-mind-understanding-1-corinthians-2-3/
https://jeffmikels.org/posts/how-to-love-god-with-your-mind-seven-recommendations/


https://probe.org/hindrances-of-the-mind-the-scandal-of-evangelical-thinking/
https://research.lifeway.com/2019/03/19/14-biblical-paradoxes-every-christian-should-know/


Proverbs 2:10
Easy-to-Read Version
10 You will gain wisdom, and knowledge will bring you joy.

ASV
For wisdom shall enter into thy heart, And knowledge shall be pleasant unto thy soul;
AMP
For [skillful and godly] wisdom will enter your heart And knowledge will be pleasant to your soul.
AMPC
For skillful and godly Wisdom shall enter into your heart, and knowledge shall be pleasant to you.
BRG
¶ When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;
CSB
For wisdom will enter your heart, and knowledge will delight you.
CEB
Wisdom will enter your mind, and knowledge will fill you with delight.
CJB
For wisdom will enter your heart, knowledge will be enjoyable for you,
CEV
Wisdom will control your mind, and you will be pleased with knowledge.
DARBY
When wisdom entereth into thy heart and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul,