Amazing Story

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Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,128
962
113
#1
Numbers 5:11-3 deals with a rather strange test of fidelity for a married woman. It sounds very pagan and reminds one of water and fire torture tests used against believers. Apparently, adultery was a major problem among God’s People after they left Egypt so he issued these special instructions.

The instructions given to Moses from YHWH were:

The husband is to bringing his wife suspected of adultery to the Tabernacle
Dust from the floor of the Tabernacle is to be mixed with living water
The woman is to be placed under a written covenant attesting her innocence
The writings from the covenant are to be added to the water
The accused woman is to drink this “bitter Water”

If guilty of adultery, the woman will suffer, waste away and become barren. If innocent, she will prosper and give her husband many children

This all sounds strange and magical but then fast forward to John 8: 1-11

This passage from John has always been a problem. Some Bible translations even exclude these verses. One can almost believe Yeshua trashes the Ten Commandments. This would be true, if one does not understand the passages from Numbers that relate directly to this scene.

Biblically, only a husband could accuse a woman of adultery and then only if supported by a witness. In this instance the accusers were Pharisees and scribes, not a husband. They state she was caught in the very act, but offer no evidence, witnesses or supporting information. They arrogantly assume their word is enough and should be taken at face value. They ask Yeshua to condemn her to stoning according to the requirements of the Torah.

Yeshua then does something that seems odd, he bends down and begins writing in the dust. This has confused gentile believers ever since. What was he writing? Look for a moment what is occurring here:

The accused woman has been brought to the temple
Dust from the temple floor is being used
Water is present, the Living Water of Christ
A covenant is being written
The woman is cleansed by the water

Every element of Numbers 5 is present in John 8; Yeshua does not changing the Torah, he actually fulfills the law. Then he goes further.

He tells the Pharisees that one without sin may cast the first stone. This is more here than a statement about purity. The Pharisees realize that if they bear false witness and commit murder in the process, they are committing intentional sins before God. They would be committing acts leading to their irrevocable separation from God. There could be no atonement for them. They would condemn themselves forever. Needless to say, the Pharisees quickly turned fled.

Oh, how effortlessly Yeshua sees the truth.

This story is mazing and becomes much richer when viewed from both First and Second Testaments.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#2
This story is mazing and becomes much richer when viewed from both First and Second Testaments
Are you thinking that Jesus was writing something from that portion of scripture that the Pharisees would immediately recognize? I think that is part of what people speculate about in John's record of the incident. The water in OT is bitter and Jesus is usually recognized as Living water so how does that figure.

Maybe to the Pharisees Jesus was like bitter water. It seems that there is more to this to be understood but probably needs a person familiar with the OT custom. Likely the Mishnah would give some insight on this. Some passages are pretty well investigated by commentators and the ones on Bible Hub are easy enough to check but at times difficult to understand.

An aside here. The commentary by Keil & Delitzsch on the record where God asks Job about Behemoth or Leviathan is an eye opener. Not sure in reference to which K&D mention Mishnah as stating the possible idea would be of an 'ordered system' being referred to. Makes me think of 'one world order' in today's vernacular.

As I understand, the Mishnah was written c. 200 AD? Maybe something amazing there too.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#4
Numbers 5:11-3 deals with a rather strange test of fidelity for a married woman.
Sotah (Hebrew: סוֹטָה or Hebrew: שׂוֹטָה[1]) is a tractate of the Talmud in Rabbinic Judaism. The tractate explains the ordeal of the bitter water, a trial by ordeal of a woman suspected of adultery, which is prescribed by the Book of Numbers in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh). In most editions, this tractate is the fifth in the order of Nashim, and it is divided into nine chapters. The tractate exists in the Mishnah, Tosefta, and both the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud.

Sotah is also the term used for the woman tried in this manner

The link here is to the portion of a book on google of Rabbinic interpretations of Sotah
https://books.google.com/books?id=RXTlobTJZ1UC&pg=PA1
 

MsMediator

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2022
1,089
735
113
#5
Numbers 5:11-3 deals with a rather strange test of fidelity for a married woman. It sounds very pagan and reminds one of water and fire torture tests used against believers. Apparently, adultery was a major problem among God’s People after they left Egypt so he issued these special instructions.

The instructions given to Moses from YHWH were:

The husband is to bringing his wife suspected of adultery to the Tabernacle
Dust from the floor of the Tabernacle is to be mixed with living water
The woman is to be placed under a written covenant attesting her innocence
The writings from the covenant are to be added to the water
The accused woman is to drink this “bitter Water”

If guilty of adultery, the woman will suffer, waste away and become barren. If innocent, she will prosper and give her husband many children

This all sounds strange and magical but then fast forward to John 8: 1-11

This passage from John has always been a problem. Some Bible translations even exclude these verses. One can almost believe Yeshua trashes the Ten Commandments. This would be true, if one does not understand the passages from Numbers that relate directly to this scene.

Biblically, only a husband could accuse a woman of adultery and then only if supported by a witness. In this instance the accusers were Pharisees and scribes, not a husband. They state she was caught in the very act, but offer no evidence, witnesses or supporting information. They arrogantly assume their word is enough and should be taken at face value. They ask Yeshua to condemn her to stoning according to the requirements of the Torah.

Yeshua then does something that seems odd, he bends down and begins writing in the dust. This has confused gentile believers ever since. What was he writing? Look for a moment what is occurring here:

The accused woman has been brought to the temple
Dust from the temple floor is being used
Water is present, the Living Water of Christ
A covenant is being written
The woman is cleansed by the water

Every element of Numbers 5 is present in John 8; Yeshua does not changing the Torah, he actually fulfills the law. Then he goes further.

He tells the Pharisees that one without sin may cast the first stone. This is more here than a statement about purity. The Pharisees realize that if they bear false witness and commit murder in the process, they are committing intentional sins before God. They would be committing acts leading to their irrevocable separation from God. There could be no atonement for them. They would condemn themselves forever. Needless to say, the Pharisees quickly turned fled.

Oh, how effortlessly Yeshua sees the truth.

This story is mazing and becomes much richer when viewed from both First and Second Testaments.
Very insightful. A bit unrelated but I find it intriguing how the Numbers passage reconciles to purity in genealogy of God's people/Israel in the Old Testament. There is a heavy focus on genealogy, descendants of God's people vs outsiders, etc. in the Old Testament. If the adulterous woman doesn't give birth, the genealogy/blood lines would obviously remain pure and would not be marred by unknowns/outsiders. Perhaps the test in Numbers worked for a certain time period. My views are that genealogies are inaccurate because of adultery, premarital sex, sex outside marriage, etc. No one really knows who among our ancestors had an affair. It was very easy to hide back then due to no DNA tests.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#6
An aside here. The commentary by Keil & Delitzsch on the record where God asks Job about Behemoth or Leviathan is an eye opener. Not sure in reference to which K&D mention Mishnah as stating the possible idea would be of an 'ordered system' being referred to. Makes me think of 'one world order' in today's vernacular.
Some mistake here. But, the commentaries for Isaiah 27:1 on Bible Hub reference Leviathan at this link. Not sure where I got 'ordered system'? Here is reference to three world powers. The day of God's vengeance.

Isaiah 27:1 Commentaries: In that day the LORD will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, With His fierce and great and mighty sword, Even Leviathan the twisted serpent; And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea. (biblehub.com)
 

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,128
962
113
#7
Very insightful. A bit unrelated but I find it intriguing how the Numbers passage reconciles to purity in genealogy of God's people/Israel in the Old Testament. There is a heavy focus on genealogy, descendants of God's people vs outsiders, etc. in the Old Testament. If the adulterous woman doesn't give birth, the genealogy/blood lines would obviously remain pure and would not be marred by unknowns/outsiders. Perhaps the test in Numbers worked for a certain time period. My views are that genealogies are inaccurate because of adultery, premarital sex, sex outside marriage, etc. No one really knows who among our ancestors had an affair. It was very easy to hide back then due to no DNA tests.
Its really interesting. When you look at the genealogy of the 12 tribes it is pretty much impossible to trace DNA. Historically there was much mixing between the tribes. I have thought that God did this to prevent us from being prideful, thus ensuring we understand faith alone for salvation.
 

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,128
962
113
#8
Sotah (Hebrew: סוֹטָה or Hebrew: שׂוֹטָה[1]) is a tractate of the Talmud in Rabbinic Judaism. The tractate explains the ordeal of the bitter water, a trial by ordeal of a woman suspected of adultery, which is prescribed by the Book of Numbers in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh). In most editions, this tractate is the fifth in the order of Nashim, and it is divided into nine chapters. The tractate exists in the Mishnah, Tosefta, and both the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmud.

Sotah is also the term used for the woman tried in this manner

The link here is to the portion of a book on google of Rabbinic interpretations of Sotah
https://books.google.com/books?id=RXTlobTJZ1UC&pg=PA1
Thank you (I think) for the link. I found it fascinating and enlightening. I have spent very little time studying Rabbinic Judaism but find it fascinating and a little confusing. It adds much nuance to biblical study.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#9
Thank you (I think) for the link. I found it fascinating and enlightening. I have spent very little time studying Rabbinic Judaism but find it fascinating and a little confusing. It adds much nuance to biblical study.
The scriptures somewhere state words to the effect 'the oracles are with the Jews'. Is it possible that this would continue to be so even with the Jewish documentation of the Rabbinic writings like the Mishnah. Confusing is an understatement in my opinion, with even Bible scripture. Another verse I find amazing is

Nehemiah 3:20After him Baruch the son of Zabbai earnestly repaired the other piece, from the turning [of the wall] unto the door of the house of Eliashib the high priest.

Baruch is the only worker who is earnestly repairing. And this piece of the wall leads directly to the High Priest. I think of Jesus as our High Priest today and maybe something amazing about the word earnestly being used here and only here.
 

Papermonkey

Active member
Dec 2, 2022
724
257
43
#10
Numbers 5:11-3 deals with a rather strange test of fidelity for a married woman. It sounds very pagan and reminds one of water and fire torture tests used against believers. Apparently, adultery was a major problem among God’s People after they left Egypt so he issued these special instructions.

The instructions given to Moses from YHWH were:

The husband is to bringing his wife suspected of adultery to the Tabernacle
Dust from the floor of the Tabernacle is to be mixed with living water
The woman is to be placed under a written covenant attesting her innocence
The writings from the covenant are to be added to the water
The accused woman is to drink this “bitter Water”

If guilty of adultery, the woman will suffer, waste away and become barren. If innocent, she will prosper and give her husband many children

This all sounds strange and magical but then fast forward to John 8: 1-11

This passage from John has always been a problem. Some Bible translations even exclude these verses. One can almost believe Yeshua trashes the Ten Commandments. This would be true, if one does not understand the passages from Numbers that relate directly to this scene.

Biblically, only a husband could accuse a woman of adultery and then only if supported by a witness. In this instance the accusers were Pharisees and scribes, not a husband. They state she was caught in the very act, but offer no evidence, witnesses or supporting information. They arrogantly assume their word is enough and should be taken at face value. They ask Yeshua to condemn her to stoning according to the requirements of the Torah.

Yeshua then does something that seems odd, he bends down and begins writing in the dust. This has confused gentile believers ever since. What was he writing? Look for a moment what is occurring here:

The accused woman has been brought to the temple
Dust from the temple floor is being used
Water is present, the Living Water of Christ
A covenant is being written
The woman is cleansed by the water

Every element of Numbers 5 is present in John 8; Yeshua does not changing the Torah, he actually fulfills the law. Then he goes further.

He tells the Pharisees that one without sin may cast the first stone. This is more here than a statement about purity. The Pharisees realize that if they bear false witness and commit murder in the process, they are committing intentional sins before God. They would be committing acts leading to their irrevocable separation from God. There could be no atonement for them. They would condemn themselves forever. Needless to say, the Pharisees quickly turned fled.

Oh, how effortlessly Yeshua sees the truth.

This story is mazing and becomes much richer when viewed from both First and Second Testaments.
The bitter water was an abortificant.
 
Dec 29, 2022
31
18
8
#11
Numbers 5:11-3 deals with a rather strange test of fidelity for a married woman. It sounds very pagan and reminds one of water and fire torture tests used against believers. Apparently, adultery was a major problem among God’s People after they left Egypt so he issued these special instructions.

The instructions given to Moses from YHWH were:

The husband is to bringing his wife suspected of adultery to the Tabernacle
Dust from the floor of the Tabernacle is to be mixed with living water
The woman is to be placed under a written covenant attesting her innocence
The writings from the covenant are to be added to the water
The accused woman is to drink this “bitter Water”

If guilty of adultery, the woman will suffer, waste away and become barren. If innocent, she will prosper and give her husband many children

This all sounds strange and magical but then fast forward to John 8: 1-11

This passage from John has always been a problem. Some Bible translations even exclude these verses. One can almost believe Yeshua trashes the Ten Commandments. This would be true, if one does not understand the passages from Numbers that relate directly to this scene.

Biblically, only a husband could accuse a woman of adultery and then only if supported by a witness. In this instance the accusers were Pharisees and scribes, not a husband. They state she was caught in the very act, but offer no evidence, witnesses or supporting information. They arrogantly assume their word is enough and should be taken at face value. They ask Yeshua to condemn her to stoning according to the requirements of the Torah.

Yeshua then does something that seems odd, he bends down and begins writing in the dust. This has confused gentile believers ever since. What was he writing? Look for a moment what is occurring here:

The accused woman has been brought to the temple
Dust from the temple floor is being used
Water is present, the Living Water of Christ
A covenant is being written
The woman is cleansed by the water

Every element of Numbers 5 is present in John 8; Yeshua does not changing the Torah, he actually fulfills the law. Then he goes further.

He tells the Pharisees that one without sin may cast the first stone. This is more here than a statement about purity. The Pharisees realize that if they bear false witness and commit murder in the process, they are committing intentional sins before God. They would be committing acts leading to their irrevocable separation from God. There could be no atonement for them. They would condemn themselves forever. Needless to say, the Pharisees quickly turned fled.

Oh, how effortlessly Yeshua sees the truth.

This story is mazing and becomes much richer when viewed from both First and Second Testaments.
Interesting. I need to ponder this a bit.
 

MsMediator

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2022
1,089
735
113
#12
Its really interesting. When you look at the genealogy of the 12 tribes it is pretty much impossible to trace DNA. Historically there was much mixing between the tribes. I have thought that God did this to prevent us from being prideful, thus ensuring we understand faith alone for salvation.
Yes. Even genealogies of famous people you would expect to be "pure" may not be so, just as royal lines. For example, there has been some hush hush around Prince Harry's genealogy because of his red hair, and King Charles has apparently never accepted him fully.
 

MsMediator

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2022
1,089
735
113
#13
I believe Jesus' genealogy is accurate because he is the Son of God, however for everyone else I think there have been some unknowns and -cover-ups in the past.
 

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
1,128
962
113
#14
Yes. Even genealogies of famous people you would expect to be "pure" may not be so, just as royal lines. For example, there has been some hush hush around Prince Harry's genealogy because of his red hair, and King Charles has apparently never accepted him fully.
Wow....
 
P

persistent

Guest
#16
Thinking out loud. Mishnah, Sotah included, written c.200 AD>>>Not too many years from time of crucifixion and Rabbinic exegesis of that time closer than any other. Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes and Rabbin all of same people and tradition??????