Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

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oyster67

oyster67

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presidente said:
The problem is there are not scriptures to support these ideas.
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All the relevant Scriptures support these ideas.

presidente said:
If there are, why don't you quote them? Why hasn't anyone done so on these forums over the years?
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We have quoted Scripture many times. I think you know that. You have been given concrete evidence. Do you think we will tire eventually and leave you alone to peach your error?

Your tactics are fascinating. Trying to confuse events that occur after the Millennial Reign with events of the Rapture seems like it may be an act of desperation on your part. John 14 is not referring to a time after the Millennium.

John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

It is true that the Lord does address those who will be left behind in Matthew 24. He has a plan for them also, but 1 Thessalonians 4 is clearly not referring to those left on Earth during the Tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Being caught up is Scripture. Post-trib error dictates that we stay down here for an Earth-based wedding. Your dog doesn't hunt. A place is being prepared in Heaven.
 
GRACE_ambassador

GRACE_ambassador

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presidente said:
The problem is there are not scriptures to support these ideas. If there are, why don't you quote them? Why hasn't anyone done so on these forums over the years?
Click to expand...
We have already done that, and still waiting for Scriptural correction, instead of
"doesn't make much sense to argue; the Bible never teaches; line of reasoning to be incredibly weak; really should think before you type; taught nowhere in scripture; boasting of one eschatology against another can come off as a bit obnoxious; straw man; pretty silly; unbiblically supported;" etc...
oyster67 said:
We have quoted Scripture many times. I think you know that.
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Yes, Dozens Of 'Rightly Divided' Scriptures always available for review/perusal:

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II

haven't seen ONE point in these studies addressed yet as (like former
theologian Ironside would say), 'WRONGLY divided' ... still waiting...
 
P

presidente

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oyster67 said:
All the relevant Scriptures support these ideas.


We have quoted Scripture many times. I think you know that. You have been given concrete evidence. Do you think we will tire eventually and leave you alone to peach your error?

Your tactics are fascinating. Trying to confuse events that occur after the Millennial Reign with events of the Rapture seems like it may be an act of desperation on your part. John 14 is not referring to a time after the Millennium.
Click to expand...
Let's not impugn one another's motives. I find your line of reason to be based on assumptions and confusion, but I don' t think you are trying to confuse one another.

John 14 doesn't give us dates for when events will happen.

Let's take a look at the passage:
John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

It is true that the Lord does address those who will be left behind in Matthew 24. He has a plan for them also, but 1 Thessalonians 4 is clearly not referring to those left on Earth during the Tribulation.
Is there anything in this passage that indicates that Jesus comes and receives His church BEFORE the tribulation? Is there any indication here that there are two 'coming of the Lord' type events, and that the church goes up in the event?

The Lord is preparing a place for the church. After the rapture we shall 'ever be with the Lord.' Thessalonians and Revelation do not mention the Lord going to heaven after the second coming, and neither mention a pretribulational rapture at all.


But if you do insist that when the Lord returns, he first takes the church to heaven in physical bodies, how is that any kind of evidence for a pretrib rapture? Why couldn't the Lord take the church all the way up to heaven at the second coming and then come back for the millinneal reign? There is no evidence for two return of Christ in the scriptures. It just isn't mentioned.

The coming of the Lord is referred to as the coming of the Lord. Pretribbers assume there are two separate events, but there is no Biblical justification for this assumption.

In Matthew 24, the coming of the Son of Man is clearly set 'after the tribulation' which is called 'great tribulation.' It shall be like the days of Noah at the coming of the Son of Man. One shall be taken and the other left....when.... seven years before the coming of the Son of Man? No, this is also about the coming of the Son of Man. What event should Jesus' disciples be waiting for, as if for a theif coming in the night? The come of the Son of Man. This is post-trib event according to the passage.

The reason pre-tribbers have to take post-trib verses clearly set after the tribulation to apply to the pre-trib rapture is because there are no pretrib passages. There is no passage that says that Jesus comes back before the great tribulation, or that a rapture will take place before the great tribulation. There are passages that refer to the coming of the Lord, and a plain sense approach treats those passages as referring to the same time frame.

When you read one verse about Judas Iscariot, and then another, you don't say, "This verse is about Judas Iscariot Johnson, and that other verse is about Judas Iscariot Smith. These are two men." Why not? Because the Bible speaks about Judas Iscariot and doesn't give us any reason to think there is more than one of them in the Bible. It's the same thing with the coming of the Lord. We have no reason to think there are two comings of the Lord referred to in Paul's or Revelation, and so there is no reason to say that the rapture happens at this coming of the Lord and this other stuff happens at the other coming of the Lord. There is no evidence for multiple events.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Being caught up is Scripture. Post-trib error dictates that we stay down here for an Earth-based wedding. Your dog doesn't hunt. A place is being prepared in Heaven.
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You have in your mind that the wedding must take place in heaven. Where does the Bible say that?

If the wedding is in heaven, why would that be any kind of evidence for a pretrib rapture?
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P

presidente

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GRACE_ambassador said:
We have already done that, and still waiting for Scriptural correction, instead of
"doesn't make much sense to argue; the Bible never teaches; line of reasoning to be incredibly weak; really should think before you type; taught nowhere in scripture;
Click to expand...

When you read one verse about Judas Iscariot, and then another, you don't say, "This verse is about Judas Iscariot Johnson, and that other verse is about Judas Iscariot Smith. These are two men." Why not? Because the Bible speaks about Judas Iscariot and doesn't give us any reason to think there is more than one of them in the Bible. It's the same thing with the coming of the Lord. We have no reason to think there are two comings of the Lord referred to in Paul's or Revelation, and so there is no reason to say that the rapture happens at this coming of the Lord and this other stuff happens at the other coming of the Lord. There is no evidence for multiple events.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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@presidente
The Lord is preparing a place for the church. After the rapture we shall 'ever be with the Lord.'
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[note: "with [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord"... Recall Paul said, "...I have BETROTHED you to one husband, that I may PRESENT you..."]




Let the readers ponder carefully why Jesus said (in the UPPER Room discourse), "I GO TO PREPARE a place..."

... when in His OLIVET Discourse, He had just told some of His disciples (those who had asked Him question in Matt24:3 based on what He'd already spoken to them about in Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50) in His RESPONSE (rather, as part of His response) about the future time-slot when all the nations will be gathered before Him (on the earth--"when the Son of man shall come... and" Matt25:31-34, parallel Matt19:28 time-wise) and to the SHEEP He will say, "come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED for you FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (not the same as saying "I GO TO PREPARE" at the time surrounding His death on the Cross)



--"I GO TO PREPARE..."


--"HAVING BEEN PREPARED... FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD"


...not the same thing
 
cv5

cv5

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oyster67 said:
All the relevant Scriptures support these ideas.


We have quoted Scripture many times. I think you know that. You have been given concrete evidence. Do you think we will tire eventually and leave you alone to peach your error?

Your tactics are fascinating. Trying to confuse events that occur after the Millennial Reign with events of the Rapture seems like it may be an act of desperation on your part. John 14 is not referring to a time after the Millennium.



It is true that the Lord does address those who will be left behind in Matthew 24. He has a plan for them also, but 1 Thessalonians 4 is clearly not referring to those left on Earth during the Tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Being caught up is Scripture. Post-trib error dictates that we stay down here for an Earth-based wedding. Your dog doesn't hunt. A place is being prepared in Heaven.
Click to expand...
John 14:3
“And if I go (BACK TO HEAVEN!) and prepare a place for you (IN HEAVEN IN THE FATHERS HOUSE!), I will come again (IN THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR), and receive you unto myself; that where I am (IN HEAVEN), there ye may be also.”

So simple so easy Presidente......
 
P

presidente

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cv5 said:
John 14:3
“And if I go (BACK TO HEAVEN!) and prepare a place for you (IN HEAVEN IN THE FATHERS HOUSE!), I will come again (IN THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR), and receive you unto myself; that where I am (IN HEAVEN), there ye may be also.”

So simple so easy Presidente......
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How is this an argument for pretrib?

The Bible doesn't show Christians being raptured into heaven at the second coming. It does show the New Jerusalem coming down to earth and the Lamb being with the saints. But if we do go to heaven a the rapture, how is that in any way evidence for references to the coming of Christ being two events or a pre-tribulation rapture?
 
oyster67

oyster67

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cv5 said:
John 14:3
“And if I go (BACK TO HEAVEN!) and prepare a place for you (IN HEAVEN IN THE FATHERS HOUSE!), I will come again (IN THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR), and receive you unto myself; that where I am (IN HEAVEN), there ye may be also.”
presidente said:
How is this an argument for pretrib?
Click to expand...
It shows that the Church is raptured up to Heaven to spend time at the Father's House. This is incompatible with any post-trib scenario. We shall attend the Marriage in Heaven rather than God's Wrath on Earth.

presidente said:
The Bible doesn't show Christians being raptured into heaven at the second coming.
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That is correct. Post-trib poses some problems for you, doesn't it.

presidente said:
It does show the New Jerusalem coming down to earth
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After the Millennium.

presidente said:
But if we do go to heaven a the rapture, how is that in any way evidence for references to the coming of Christ being two events or a pre-tribulation rapture?
Click to expand...
When two events are separated by 7 years, we generally consider them to be two events. If you want to consider everything as one big, long "end-time thingy" then have at it.
 
cv5

cv5

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presidente said:
The Bible doesn't show Christians being raptured into heaven at the second coming.?
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Correct. The fact of which I demonstrated in an earlier post. Nobody gets raptured in the book of Revelation chapter 6 and beyond. The Church is clearly shown to be in heaven in chapters 4 and 5.

70th week of Daniel......the unleashing of God's wrath upon the earth dwellers. Something the Church shall never experience.

The post tribbers lose yet another debate. Always have always will.....
 
P

presidente

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oyster67 said:
cv5 said:
John 14:3
“And if I go (BACK TO HEAVEN!) and prepare a place for you (IN HEAVEN IN THE FATHERS HOUSE!), I will come again (IN THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR), and receive you unto myself; that where I am (IN HEAVEN), there ye may be also.”

It shows that the Church is raptured up to Heaven to spend time at the Father's House. This is incompatible with

When two events are separated by 7 years, we generally consider them to be two events. If you want to consider everything as one big, long "end-time thingy" then have at it.
Click to expand...
oyster67 said:
cv5 said:
John 14:3
“And if I go (BACK TO HEAVEN!) and prepare a place for you (IN HEAVEN IN THE FATHERS HOUSE!), I will come again (IN THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR), and receive you unto myself; that where I am (IN HEAVEN), there ye may be also.”
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.
I should have pointed out the text is added to here, stuff in parentheses, that is not in the Bible.
It shows that the Church is raptured up to Heaven to spend time at the Father's House. This is incompatible with any post-trib scenario.
Click to expand...
The Bible tells us the dead in Christ and they which are alive and remain will be raptured up together to meet tge Lord in the air. You added the in heaven part assuming a pretrib scenario.

The problem with pretrib is there is no passage placing the rapture of the church before the tribulation. II Thessalonians 2:1 speaks of the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him. I think we both agree that the gathering refers to the rapture.

The coming of the Son of man and our gathering unto Him is set AFTER the tribulation in Matthew 24.

The days of Noah passage is set at the coming of the Son of man which happens AFTER the tribulation.

The warning about coming as a thief and one shall be taken and tge other left are set at the coming of tge Son of man which tge passage says occurs AFTER the tribulation.


We shall attend the Marriage in Heaven rather than God's Wrath on Earth.
Click to expand...
A dichotomy from you not the Bible. There is no reason to think the tribulation saints incur God's anger.



When two events are separated by 7 years, we generally consider them to be two events. If you want to consider everything as one big, long "end-time thingy" then have at it.
Click to expand...

The Bible says nothingabout a separatepretribulationalrapture. The rapture occurs at Jesus' coming. The man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of His coming. There is no Biblical reason to believe Jesus retrurns 7 years before Jesus returns. If I am wrong just show the verses.
 
J

justpassinthrough

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oyster67 said:
All the relevant Scriptures support these ideas.


We have quoted Scripture many times. I think you know that. You have been given concrete evidence. Do you think we will tire eventually and leave you alone to peach your error?

Your tactics are fascinating. Trying to confuse events that occur after the Millennial Reign with events of the Rapture seems like it may be an act of desperation on your part. John 14 is not referring to a time after the Millennium.

John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

It is true that the Lord does address those who will be left behind in Matthew 24. He has a plan for them also, but 1 Thessalonians 4 is clearly not referring to those left on Earth during the Tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Being caught up is Scripture. Post-trib error dictates that we stay down here for an Earth-based wedding. Your dog doesn't hunt. A place is being prepared in Heaven.
Click to expand...

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


  • we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

The resurrection and rapture occur at the coming of the Lord.



But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-3


  • when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them,

The wicked, including the antichrist will be destroyed at the coming of the Lord.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8





JPT
 
P

presidente

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Nehemiah6 said:
Give some thought to the absurdity of your theory. All the verses have already been posted too many times. They have no impact.
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Talk about gaslighting....

Look at the post right below you for verses that have been posted numerous times.

The rapture happens at the coming of the Lord.

The lawless one is destroyed at the coming of the Lord.
 
cv5

cv5

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presidente said:
.
I should have pointed out the text is added to here, stuff in parentheses, that is not in the Bible.

The Bible tells us the dead in Christ and they which are alive and remain will be raptured up together to meet tge Lord in the air. You added the in heaven part assuming a pretrib scenario.

The problem with pretrib is there is no passage placing the rapture of the church before the tribulation. II Thessalonians 2:1 speaks of the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto Him. I think we both agree that the gathering refers to the rapture.

The coming of the Son of man and our gathering unto Him is set AFTER the tribulation in Matthew 24.

The days of Noah passage is set at the coming of the Son of man which happens AFTER the tribulation.

The warning about coming as a thief and one shall be taken and tge other left are set at the coming of tge Son of man which tge passage says occurs AFTER the tribulation.




A dichotomy from you not the Bible. There is no reason to think the tribulation saints incur God's anger.






The Bible says nothingabout a separatepretribulationalrapture. The rapture occurs at Jesus' coming. The man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of His coming. There is no Biblical reason to believe Jesus retrurns 7 years before Jesus returns. If I am wrong just show the verses.
Click to expand...
My assessment of your inputs: all sound and fury signifying nothing.
 
Evmur

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#257
oyster67 said:
All the relevant Scriptures support these ideas.


We have quoted Scripture many times. I think you know that. You have been given concrete evidence. Do you think we will tire eventually and leave you alone to peach your error?

Your tactics are fascinating. Trying to confuse events that occur after the Millennial Reign with events of the Rapture seems like it may be an act of desperation on your part. John 14 is not referring to a time after the Millennium.

John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

It is true that the Lord does address those who will be left behind in Matthew 24. He has a plan for them also, but 1 Thessalonians 4 is clearly not referring to those left on Earth during the Tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Being caught up is Scripture. Post-trib error dictates that we stay down here for an Earth-based wedding. Your dog doesn't hunt. A place is being prepared in Heaven.
Click to expand...
The most relevant scripture is the Lord "after the tribulation of those days ... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds" Matt. 24.

The term "Great Tribulation" comes from Jeremiah 30 "alas for that day, there is none like it, it is even the time of Jacob's trouble"

It doesn't come from God it comes from the world.
 
P

presidente

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cv5 said:
My assessment of your inputs: all sound and fury signifying nothing.
Click to expand...
I usually quote and paraphrase scripture over and over again, and ask for scripture to support your points
 
cv5

cv5

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justpassinthrough said:
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


  • we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

The resurrection and rapture occur at the coming of the Lord.



But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-3


  • when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them,

The wicked, including the antichrist will be destroyed at the coming of the Lord.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8





JPT
Click to expand...
Time for you to do your homework bro. Take a few months, go thru all of this, and then submit your thesis. Many of us have already done so and achieved our Masters in Church Eschatology.

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Search results for query: harpazo - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums
 
P

presidente

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oyster67 said:
All the relevant Scriptures support these ideas.
Click to expand...
None of the scriptures you post support the idea that the timing of the rapture is before the tribulation.

Rather, it puts the timing of the rapture at the 'coming of the Lord'. This is very clear in the one and only passage that we see the term 'rapture' from... about the church being 'caught up.' It says it right there, 'the coming of the Lord.' When does the coming of the Lord happen? In Matthew 24, we read about 'great tribulation' and about the coming of the Son of Man AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

The passage about the 'days of Noah' in that chapter says, 'so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.' When can we expect this? Look earlier in the chapter about the coming of the Son of Man, 'AFTER THE TRIBULATION....' What about watching like one watches for a thief... again this same time period. What about 'one shall be taken and the other left'? Again, this is about the coming of the Son of man which happens 'AFTER THE TRIBULATION.'

What else happens at the coming of the Lord? The destruction of that lawless one.

We have quoted Scripture many times. I think you know that.
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Yes, I am well aware of that. I am well aware of the fact that you repeatedly quote scripture that does NOT SUPPORT A PRETRIB RAPTURE of the church. That's the point. I am asking for scripture that supports a pretrib rapture, not just the quoting of scripture.

You have been given concrete evidence. Do you think we will tire eventually and leave you alone to peach your error?
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The concrete evidence is not evidence for the position you are promoting. Do you think I should leave you alone to promote your error?


John 14:3
“And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”
Click to expand...
Nothing here says this happens before the tribulation.

It is true that the Lord does address those who will be left behind in Matthew 24. He has a plan for them also, but 1 Thessalonians 4 is clearly not referring to those left on Earth during the Tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
Click to expand...
In Matthew 24, the gathering of the elect is about those on the earth AFTER the tribulation. Nothing about the verse you quote places this before the tribulation. In II Thessalonians 1-- same author, same audience-- Paul writes to this church about the Lord coming and recompensing those who cause them 'tribulation.' Compare the Greek wording to the wording for 'tribulation' elsewhere in the New Testament.

Being caught up is Scripture. Post-trib error dictates that we stay down here for an Earth-based wedding.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. I don't see where the Bible specifies where the wedding takes place. Do you have any scripture for that.
 
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