Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

For those following along with this thread... a question:


Besides being "shaken [G4531] in mind"...

--"to move or agitate the mind, to disturb one:τινα ἀπό τοῦ νως, so as to throw him out of his sober and natural mental state (Buttmann, 322 (277)), 2 Thessalonians 2:2"


...and "troubled [G2360]"...

--"throéō (from throos, "clamor, tumult") – properly, unsettled (thrown into confusion, WS, 953); (figuratively) troubled (disturbed), wanting to "cry aloud, to scream (passive) because terrified" (WP, 1, 189); thrown into an "emotional uproar," i.e. very upset (alarmed, startled)."



... what kind of picture would be brought to your mind (as to, what has taken place) if someone were to say [/ purport] (even perhaps by a letter, say, lost records as being from Paul): "that THE DAY OF THE LORD is present [perfect indicative; 'perfect' tense, meaning, 'Action completed at a specific point of time IN PAST, with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT']"

... IOW, what would you think has taken place (according to said "claim" 2:2 [false claim Paul is referencing and addressing])?









Because... I find that misapprehending what it is this "false claim" is referring to, sets one off on the wrong trail, when grasping what Paul is actually conveying in this passage

Right.

(This is not to say that all trib saints will die b/f His Second Coming to the earth, as you well know... Some will survive to the end and ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies.)





But as to the ones who DIE in the trib years, this is specifically what 20:4b's "the souls of" speaks to (the ones who are KILLED / DIE in / during the trib yrs)... and the Greek word "and they lived" [same word used of Jesus in 2:8 after HE was "dead"... "and LIVED"--referring to His resurrection, bodily]...

... and are the ones specifically being referred to by the word "THIS [G3778]" in 20:5b (referring back to the ones in v.4b who DIED specifically during the trib years--"I saw the SOULS OF [...]" certain ones during a certain time-period--not all saints of ALL time periods):


"THIS [G3778] is the resurrection the first [adjective]."
(but recall, verse 4b had ONLY referenced those who specifically DIED during a very limited time period--And it is NOT saying, this is the first time saints will have been resurrected, because we can see that the "2W" who will have been killed during the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" are bodily resurrected, before they then ascended up into Heaven... BEFORE the "7th Trumpet [events] / 3rd Woe" and "7 Vials" unfold upon the earth, which themselves could take up to a year or more to unfold BEFORE His Second Coming to the earth in Rev19)


Then verse 6 goes on to say, "Blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection the first [adjective]"

(these LAST saints to have died, specifically in the Trib years, and of whom v.5b's "THIS [G3778]" refers back to... are also "blessed and holy"... as "having A PART IN the resurrection the first [adj]" (i.e. "the resurrection OF LIFE")--but again, this is not conveying that they are the first saints to have been resurrected)







The word "first" as a adjective can mean:

Definition: first, chief
Usage: first, before, principal, most important.

[and]

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
first, beginning, best, chief
Contracted superlative of pro; foremost (in time, place, order or importance) -- before, beginning, best, chief(-est), first (of all), former.

[and... from BLB]

1. first in rank
   1. influence, honour
   2. chief
   3. principal

I am 100% on board with your exegetical treatment.

Presidente may have trouble comprehending this, but give the poor fella some time. He will figure it out.

Learn the difference between God's temporal judgments and his eternal wrath.
Being protected by theThe Passover blood on the doorpost was enough to protect Israel from the plagues God sent on Egypt .
We have the eternal blood of Jesus Christ. Why cite Enoch but ignore this?

The wrath of God does not fall on believers. We don't need a pretib placement in heaven. God's provision is enough.
We are marked by the blood of The lamb. The High Priest (Jesus Christ) is administering the blood of The Lamb (Jesus Christ)
from heaven's temple now (Rev 5) and will continue to do so.

RE: Ten thousands of his holy ones- You try to create a false impression that heaven is void of saints unless there is a pretrib rapture.
You fail. There are millions of saints in heaven now. No one must be placed in heaven bodily in order to return from heaven.

Not in heavenly glorified BODIES. That which they need to function in the capacities required.

This only happens at the pre-trib rapture. THEN these prepared Saints who are UNIONED with Jesus return WITH Him at the SC.

Thats the layout my dear. It is what it is.....

I do not see where any saints could be wearing a "STEPHANOS / crown" prior to the judgment seat of Christ (BEMA), and Paul says he and others will be awarded these "IN THAT DAY" (not at the time of his and their DEATH--IOW, "the DEAD IN Christ" who are presently "at home with the Lord" are NOT YET wearing [/having been awarded] "crowns").

Yet we see the "24 elders" wearing "stephanous / crowns" and sitting on thrones... and saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood, out-of EVERY..." (5:9), and saying this just before Jesus is shown "STANDING" opening the FIRST SEAL of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period which IS the 7-yr Tribulation period (commonly so called)... [equivalent "the beginning of birth pangs" Jesus had spoken of]




Even the well-known [non-pre-tribber] Geo. E Ladd had said that IF the 24 elders are saying "US" in verse 9 (which the manuscript evidence proves to be the case), he would have to consider our Rapture as being "pre-trib" and that these are indeed the raptured Church.

False. The Bible refutes that statement: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. (Rev 19:14). These are all the saints bodily returning from Heaven with Christ.

So who are these clothed in fine linen, clean and white? And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. (Rev 19:8) These are the saints who were taken up to Heaven in the Resurrection/Rapture. [Note: All the saints who have passed on are presently in the New Jerusalem awaiting their resurrection. They will receive, immortal, incorruptible, glorious bodies at the resurrection, and will be accompanied by the raptured saints in their glorious bodies]

The people opposed to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture simply cannot connect the dots. There is a mental block created through the doctrines of men. So what is the realty of the Bride of Christ?

1. Christ is the divine Bridegroom and the Church is His Bride. This is solidly embedded in the NT.

2. The Church consists of all who have been saved by grace, the saints who have passed on and are now in Heaven, as well as the ones who will be alive at the Resurrection/Rapture.

3. The Bride is also the Body of Christ, which means that all the saints must be together at the Marriage of the Lamb. There is one Head and one Body.

4. Christ will "come in the air", then perfect and glorify all the saints at the Resurrection/Rapture, and immediately take them to Heaven. This will all be "in the twinkling of an eye" (nano-seconds).

5. This glorious event has absolutely nothing to do with the divine judgments which will come upon the earth during the Tribulation and Great Tribulation. Thus a Pre-Tribulation Rapture will guarantee that when Christ comes back to earth will all His saints and angels, He will have "clouds" surrounding Him and radiating light. Those clouds are in fact all the saints and holy angels.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him near before him. (Dan 7:13)

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

When He comes to the Clouds before the tribulation. (That is what the Bible says.)

When He brings us back down to Earth with Him seven years later. (That is what the Bible says.)

He comes in clouds and takes us to Heaven and brings us back to Earth seven years later. Very simple. The post-trib rap idea is completely nonsensical, nonfunctional, and nonbiblical.

The thing is, you don't have any scripture to back up the pre-trib parts of your theory. The Bible talks about the coming 'parousia' of Christ, not multiple comings of Christ.

Notice what happened in Acts 1

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”
(NKJV)

Jesus will return the way He left. Did he go up to the clouds, come back to the earth for seven years, and then go past the clouds again to heaven? Wouldn't that be the same as how pre-trib says He comes back, just in reverse.

When Jesus went to the clouds, He didn't stop and go back. He went on up. And there is no evidence in the Bible that at His coming He goes to the clouds and goes back up, either.

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Instead of this, I believe what Paul wrote in I Corinthians 15.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
(NKJV)

That chapter goes on to give details, such as mortality putting on immortality. It doesn't say they that are Christ's will remain in their mortal bodies.

I Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.




Those who died during the tribulation being specifically referenced doesn't preclude others who died in Christ from being resurrected 'at His coming.' If they lived in a calmer time, and did not worship the beast or take his mark, they are still the dead in Christ.

Do you disagree that the passage you refer to happens at His coming?

We look at other scripture for that, like I Thessalonians 4 or I Corinthians 15 to see what happens at Jesus' coming. At Jesus' coming, they that are Christ's are made alive (I Corinthians 15), the dead in Christ rise first and they that are alive and remain are caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air (I Thessalonians 4.) II Thessalonians 2 also tells us that at the brightness His coming, the lawless one will be destroyed.

The beast and the false prophet were cast into the lake of fire a few verses before the resurrection verse you are referring to.

There is no passage that show a pretrib rapture or that says that Jesus is coming back twice. You are taking this extrabiblical theory and trying to read it back into a Bible that doesn't mention the theory

I could say that the false prophet is made known after the rain consisting of giant bananas falls from the sky. If I could get churches to invite me, I could preach about the sign of the falling giant bananas. I could say this event in Revelation happens before the bananas, and this event happens after. But the Bible doesn't teach giant falling bananas, and it doesn't teach a pretrib rapture. you

Having a part in something doesn't prove other parts or whatever other parts you want to prove.


Is there anything in the context to indicate a secondary use of the term is most likely? Revelation has two big resurrections, the first resurrection, and the resurrection after the thousand years. Whether the two witnesses are raised immortal at that time, we do not know. Lazarus was raised from the dead, but that doesn't mean that he was immortal.

There is contextual reason to think the word is used in a 'temporal' sense as in first, and then something else follows.

Revelation 20
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection(NKJV)

Pretrib rapture in chapter 5? Looks like grasping at straws to me.

Now walk me through the book of Revelation and show me how you get that there are seven years in those specific chapters?

You've dodged the question many times. I'm not sure if it is dozen. Usually you just brag about how great the arguments for pretrib are, without making any arguments.[/quote][/QUOTE]

Aside from what I've put in past posts regarding Paul's use of the distinct words "EPeita" (v.23) and "eita" (v.24a), and how that impacts the verse... bear in mind that the Subject matter of 1Cor15 generally is: "resurrection" (that pertains to ppl who've DIED).





Recall, even Jesus had said,
"though he may DIE yet SHALL he LIVE" (i.e. be resurrected) and "he that LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE"
(these pertain each to His saying "I AM the RESURRECTION *AND* the LIFE");

Those saints who survive clear to the end of the trib (not experiencing what Rev20:4b speaks to--i.e.ones who've DIED) do not need to be "resurrected" (the Subject being spoken of in 1Cor15:23--"but each IN THE OWN ORDER / RANK"<--re: "resurrection"... from the dead; IOW, where it says, "they that are Christ's at His coming" [His Second Coming to the earth] is re: resurrection... This verse speaks nothing of the "still-alive" saints at the time-slot being referenced).






At the END of the chpt, Paul is saying, "Behold, I SHEW you a MYSTERY..." (not something that had been previously disclosed, and that all OT saints already well-knew, Dan12:13 / Job19:25-27 / Jn11:24 / etc)

The "two men" in this passage were speaking of Christ's return to the earth at Rev19 (when "EVERY EYE" shall SEE Him); He shall "SO COME IN LIKE MANNER AS YE HAVE SEEN Him traveling into Heaven"

But they were saying this of His Acts 1 ascension...


... they did NOT say this of His EARLIER ascension that took place some "40 days" PRIOR to this point...

... per Jesus' words to Mary Magdalene in John 20:17 (which He did ON "FIRSTFRUIT" the very day of His resurrection, fulfilling Lev23:10-12), with His saying to her "I ASCEND [active]"...

... no one "SAW" Him ascend that day...

... and there were not "two men" saying ANYTHING about this instance...

ONLY MM was TOLD, and instructed by Jesus Himself to "go and SAY UNTO" (which they did not "believe" the report, btw).





My point being, THIS was the instance of His going "UP and DOWN" (in one and the same day--on FIRSTFRUIT / His Resurrection Day--Jn20:17!!)... but not the thing that the "two men" were speaking to in the "40 days" LATER Acts 1 instance of His going / traveling UP (VISIBLY--IN THEIR SIGHT), as to how He shall "so come IN LIKE MANNER, as ye have SEEN..."!! (speaking of His Second Coming to the earth / feet touching the mt of olives, Zech14:4--when "EVERY EYE" shall SEE Him [coming])

Thank you for your list of pretribulation rapture constrictions. They do not supersede The Bible.
Connecting dots to an exrtra-bible philosophy is unwise. Pretrib belief is nothing more than indoctrination.
I either believe The Bible or I believe pretribulation rapture. I can't believe both.


Do you really not see the myraid of contradictions? here is yet another ...

You've posted this:

"3. The Bride is also the Body of Christ, which means that all the saints must be together at the Marriage of the Lamb. There is one Head and one Body."

Why then the continuous pretrib dictates that there is pretribulation "church age" separated from "tribulation saints" and the remnant of Israel who miss the marriage in heaven?

Pretribbers always insist that the marriage of the lamb is happening in heaven before Jesus' real return. "tribulation saints"
& Israel are left on earth to fend for themselves. That breaks up the body of Christ. Perhaps you are denying that now.

Pretrib dictates:
The return of Jesus is not the retrun of Jesus, the last trumpet is not the last trumpet, the last day is not the last day, some of the most faithful saints are excluded from the church. There are 2 chosen peoples, 2 raptures (2-7) resurrections. (4-7?) judgements. (depending on which pretrib teacher you listen to) And The Church which has suffered tribulation for 2000 years is suddenly exempt. Erased are all the scriptures calling for patient endurance.

A convoluted mess. And you call post-trib nonsensical. Very funny.

What the "two men" said in Acts 1, we AGREE on that He will "RETURN" (to the earth) in the same manner as they had SEEN Him traveling into Heaven... and His feet will touch the Mt of Olives... no one disagrees with this point (in this thread).


Yes, but ON FIRSTFRUITS / His Resurrection Day-->He ASCENDED (UP to the Father) THAT DAY... and then He CAME BACK DOWN to spend some "40 days" [40 ="trial/judgment/testing" in scripture] before He then (again) WENT UP AGAIN in the later Acts 1 setting (this time, VISIBLY--and is how, as the "two men" said, He would "so come in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN Him traveling into Heaven<--They did NOT say this regarding His 40-days-EARLIER ascension to the Father on FIRSTFRUIT / His Resurrection Day--Only MM was told... by Jesus Himself).

Ponder what I just put in the above section... and then see your answer... [yup!!!]

Whose misconception? The gross pretrib error is exposed so you are dodging.
Certainly no one who believes in the resurrection/translation during the 2nd coming of Jesus preaches 2-returns.
Only pretrib teaching imposes 2-returns onto the text.


The verses below all describe the second coming.

I Thess 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Luke 21:
27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Math 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You're missing Neh6's point.

It is the post-tribbers who INCORRECTLY attribute such a thing to "pre-trib teachings" when that is not the case.

We believe He "RETURNS" only ONCE (at the Rev19 time-slot--His Second Coming to the earth--FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age--when His feet will touch the Mt of Olives):

--"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 parallel Matt24:42-51 (THEN the "meal [G347]" aka the earthly MK age);

--Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... when He will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities" and "be thou likewise over 5 cities" and its parallel in Matt25:14-30;




We pre-tribbers do NOT say Jesus "returns" TWICE... but this is what post-tribbers and others incorrectly accuse us of saying (and, I admit, some pre-tribbers incorrectly express it in such a way... in this inaccurate way).




So when Neh6 said, "That is another misconception," he meant "misconception" of the pre-trib explanation.