Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

In Revelation 12:7 we see 'Michael and his angels' fight against Satan/Dragon and cast him out of heaven.
This is in marked contrast with what we read of Christ, Who utterly destroys with a word, the sword proceeding from His mouth.

Speaking of misquotes...

Something that hasn't been mentioned here yet that JW's tend to put, is the meaning of the name Michael

The name means "who is like God?"

JWs will leave out the question mark and say it means Michael is like God.
But Hebrew happens to have a specific word for "who" that means it is a question, not a pronoun. That word is Mika. Hence, Mika-El
It is a question, not a statement - that's an inescapable facet of the etymology.

So the name itself is rhetorical and explicitly indicates the non-deity of the bearer of the name.

Case closed

What makes this a good guess....

Firstly, in particular in Daniel, Michael is called a "prince" of his people, i.e. prince of Israel.
The LORD / Jesus Christ however is identified as THE KING of Israel ((c.f.e. 1 Samuel 8:7, John 1:49 etc)) - explicitly different titles with a distinct implied hierarchy.

A reasonable assumption - indeed the ancient Jewish tradition, based in the Daniel text - is that Michael is particularly assigned in the angelic realm with the defense of Israel. This puts a very particular skew on Revelation 12, that is, the Motive and goal of the attack of the dragon in the particular war that is described there.. But that is an aside.

Gabriel is in contrast here: he is particularly known for announcing the birth of the Messiah. ((see: NT annunciation))
What follows in Daniel 10 from the appearance of the man in linen and gold are prophecies of the coming ages which culminate in the appearing of the Messiah, of the antichrist, of the age of the gentiles and its end, and of the second appearing of Messiah and the end of the Gentile age & Advent of the resurrection.

While Israel is naturally inextricably from these things, they are not particular to Israel, thus it is notable and appropriate that Michael is not the one bearing the message. But all these things pertain to Messiah - hence Gabriel, if it is indeed true that Gabriel sits in the role of being the 'messenger' of the Messiah whereas Michael is the 'messenger' of Israel.

Just idle thoughts.
As far as OP pretty sure all arguments exhausted at this point, Michael is not Christ.

Only 4 pages to thoroughly debunk a JW cult cornerstone, not bad

=]

I dont care what lies others spread about Luther. Or the mischaracterizations of his words.

As a lutheran who has studied Luther quite extensively, im quite aware of what Luther had to say on many subjects.

Professor Douglas, whoever he is, seems to have a reading comprehension problem, because...


Matthew 4:10-11
Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'"
Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.


Jesus Christ Himself directly rebukes Satan, and Satan is caused to depart - in stark contrast with Michael daring not and appealing to God.

Clearly Christ boldly possesses in and of Himself all the authority and power of YHWH whereas Michael does not and must instead defer for help.


I'd like to know what Satan thought at this moment - he believed he was tempting a mere man like Adam but found himself rebuked and compelled to obey the command to depart.
How far away did Satan land when Christ, YHWH hidden in flesh, said, "away with you"?

=]

There is not a transition in the text at Daniel 10:10, from one person to another person.

Daniel 10:15
When he had spoken to me according to these words, I turned my face toward the ground and became speechless. And behold, one who resembled a human was touching my lips. Then I opened my mouth and spoke and said to him who was standing before me, “My lord, due to the vision anguish has come upon me, and I have retained no strength.

English translation via Google because my German is regrettably poor..


HOW Michael is an angel's name, but we understand here, same as Apoc. XII. the Lord Christ himself there through, those here on earth with his angels, that is preachers, fight against the devil, through the gospel, for he names in the great princes. THE same has now opened up and stands for the Christians and comforts them with the word of grace. BECAUSE since then the most growing time has come, when there was never on earth HOW Christ also foresees this word..


Clearly Luther is saying that in tyoe Michael standing for Israel is just as Christ indeed stands for Israel, in the same way that ((as he continues)) preachers of the gospel oppose the devil though it is Christ who truly stands against and overcomes him.
Preachers stand in His authority just as Michael guarded Israel in the guise of Christ's authority, Christ being THE King of Israel ((see previous comments for citation))
This doesn't make Michael another name for Christ any more than it makes Luther another name for Christ. Instead Michael is His representative; Luther is His representative.

This is equivalent to Melito as previously discussed: Luther dos not by any means appear to be calling Michael Jesus in this text. He is exegeying the Christology of Michael.

Sorry for typos. Small phone keypad.

All of my sources, are primary, even given in original languages. Some of the primary, act as secondary, by citing others in them at the same time.

The source you gave, is not a primary source - at all. It is a work of another, about the past materials. In most part, it proves what I stated in evidence regarding the Lutherans (beginning with Luther and Melanchthon), the only caveat being (the already known issue of Lutherans with Jude 9). However, when I cited Luther, Melanchthon, Hengstenberg, etc, I cited them in the places which they clearly identified Michael with the Son of God. The material was not focused upon their minor differences of opinion, elsewhere (as in Jude, though I do cite some of them in that area also in their original works).

The rest of the author is simply his own bias, or citing others biases/opinions about their own understanding of Jude 9, and perhaps in a few instances Daniel 10, but even Daniel 10 is clearly given in favor in your own citation, by other Lutherans. The author seems to write from a catholic perspective, even if they claim to be Lutheran (which is no surprise these days with the Jesuits involved in everything).

In other words, the author does a great job on the historical aspect, but poorly in his opinionated conclusion. He offers no real line upon line evidence for his position, but simply makes unfounded and questionable assertions, which are easily answered by the text of scripture itself (even for Jude 9 and Daniel 10).

I had never stated that the Lutherans had perfect understanding of the subject in the first place. I simply said that they had a position on the subject, and that the majority of texts, and majority of Lutherans, did indeed teach from scripture, that Michael is the Son of God in nearly all places of scripture (Jude 9 excepting, and possibly Daniel 10 in a few). However, in those two places, they simply did not see all the way through, and made some guessing errors about those two places. I still accept their effortsm for the time in which they lived and era of great darkness they were coming out of. In other words, I give them the grace for their period of time to make a few mistakes on the subject. I cited, mostly, their positive and well documented statements, not their doubting opinions (as this author you cited does).

I conferred with a native German speaker (a Christian). He clearly told me, that Luther stated that Michael is Christ. Google translate, does not do a good job with old German (and some Dutch) mix.

Thank you. I get so frustrated with folk maligning Luther, i dont bother to give details. It seems a hobbie for so many. When He stood for the gospel against powerful enemies. Of coarse we dont say Luther was perfect or even right all the time. He was a man and made mistakes. He also grew and changed over the years he became more mature and it is reflected in his writtings.

Here is what scripture says, in contrast to the 'you-ism'.

Mat_8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

Mat_9:33 And when the devil was cast out, the dumb spake: and the multitudes marvelled, saying, It was never so seen in Israel.

Mat_10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Mat_12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Mar_16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Luk_11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Luk_13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Joh_12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Luk_17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

There have been many points you have conveniently failed to address here, but I don't remember you addressing one in particular that Posthuman said, that utterly seals the question on this heretical issue you are pushing.

I'll expand and post the whole chapter, which SEVERAL times specifically refutes your heresy, and UNEQUIVOCALLY delineates Jesus from created angels:

Hebrews 1

New King James Version

God’s Supreme Revelation
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
The Son Exalted Above Angels
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:
“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”
13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation

I'm undecided on what the right answer is on regarding who Michael the Archangel is. In my opinion, this will be one of those topics that will be debated, until Christ returns.

I have attended Seventh Day Adventist Church for many years, and this was one of the topics, that I was unsure of. My faith is some where between Messianic Judaism and Seventh Day Adventist. So, no need to ask me my faith later down this thread.

Here are two videos that give to different view points on the subject. Doug Bachelor is one of my favorite teachers, but I don't agree with everything he says, in all his videos, but respect him, and his teachings.

I believe in hearing all sides of a topic, and then deciding for yourself. At the present time, this isn't something that I want to dive into, but maybe later. I'm currently more interested in studying the stars and cosmology for some reason. That's how the wise men found Jesus right?




Here is a video demonstrating that Michael is not Jesus.




The discussion about Archangel got me thinking of the Ark of the Covenant, not trying to derail thread, but maybe someone has a quick answer for my question.

My question or comment is that, The Ten Commandments tells us not to make any graven images of things in heaven above, than Exodus 25 says, to make to angels for the Ark of the Covenant.

Any comments or input would greatly be appreciated. Thanks! This is something that just sprung up from this conversation.

Exodus 20

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.



Exodus 25

8 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.

20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.

21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

Perhaps graven images are acceptable if they are not made "unto thee."

I think this site gives a pretty good answer.

https://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/Exodus_25.18ff.php

"The prohibition against making graven images was distinctly set in the context of worshiping idols. There are, then, several reasons why making the cherubim does not conflict with this command not to bow down to graven images. First, there was no chance that the people of Israel would fall down before the cherubim in the most holy place, since they were forbidden to go in the holy place at any time. Even the high priest went only once a year on the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16)."

I wasn't referring to conflicts with 'ordinary' demons but Satan himself & the antichrist he indwells.

Revelation 20:7-9
Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number [is] as the sand of the sea. They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-10
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the [lawless one] is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


Consider this example:

John 18:3-7
Then Judas, having received a detachment [of troops,] and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, came there with lanterns, torches, and weapons. Jesus therefore, knowing all things that would come upon Him, went forward and said to them, "Whom are you seeking?" They answered Him, "Jesus of Nazareth."
Jesus said to them, "I AM" And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them.
Now when He said to them, "I AM" they drew back and fell to the ground. Then He asked them again, "Whom are you seeking?" And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth."

at this time Satan himself is in Judas and at the word of Christ's mouth he is knocked to the ground, flattened.
This is a direct confrontation between Satan and Christ and the outcome is very different than Michael daring not to directly rebuke him. Just like in the testing in the wilderness where Christ speaks a direct rebuke and Satans departure ensues, Christ with the word of His mouth knocks Satan to the ground.

In the same way after the thousand years by the mouth of God fire from heaven will consume all those Satan brings with himself to oppose the saints.

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Michael is an angel.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jesus is God manifest in the flesh a visible image of the invisible God.

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Michael is an angel that was created so he has a beginning.

Jesus is the King of kings, and Lord of lords, which Michael could never have them titles for there is only one King and Lord and that is God.

Jesus dwells in the light that no person can approach unto, and no person has seen Jesus and no person will ever see Jesus because He is God that is an invisible Spirit but showed a visible manifestation of Himself.

Jesus is bigger than a physical manifestation which Michael is only as big as the size of an angel and not outside of that angelic body.

Jesus is made after the order of Melchisedec who is a manifestation of God who has no mother or father, and no beginning of days and no end of life.

Jesus is the brightness of God's glory which God said He does not give His glory to another, and the express image of God which means the exact image of God for He is the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The Bible says He is made so much better than the angels so He cannot be an angel.

And has obtained a more excellent name than the angels so He cannot have an angel name such as Michael.

Which the Bible says that the name of Jesus is the name above all names not only in this world but in the world to come and only God can have the highest name.

Also all the angels worship Jesus which all worship only goes to God and not even Michael can receive worship from an angel for he is only an angel.

Jesus cannot be God and an angel at the same time.

Jesus is God.

God the Father set Jesus on the right hand of Him and said that would never happen with an angel.

Michael is only an angel and the Bible says that the angels desire to look in to the salvation of the saints, and that is because when the saints receive their glorified body they will be greater than the angels because they have a body like Jesus' body.

The saints will be greater than the angels when they receive their glorified body so Jesus would be greater than the angels for Jesus is greater than the saints for He is King of kings and Lord of Lords and is the Almighty.

If Jesus is the Almighty how can he be an angel and the Bible calls Him the mighty God.

The angels may be greater than a saint while in the flesh but an angel does not want to get in to a wrestling match with a saint when they receive their glorified body for the angel would get a whooping.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Michael is a prince of the Hebrews with a small p and fights the fallen angels to protect Israel.

But Jesus is the Prince of Peace with a capital P which is the man Christ Jesus the Son as the Prince for even the man Christ Jesus is greater than an angel.

God said He is the only Savior of the world.

Jesus is the Savior of the world so He is God and cannot be an angel.

Also no angel could provide salvation for mankind but a perfect human sacrifice which only can be provided by God manifesting Himself in flesh.