kenosis . . ?

posthuman · Jan 29, 2023

the word is Greek, from Philippians 2, quoted below in kjv, with some context --

If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name:

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Philippians 2:1-8)

the phrase here "made Himself of no reputation" is literally:

but did empty himself

(Philippians 2:7 ylt)

the verb "to empty" is in Greek, κενόω, transliterated, kenoo -- the noun form for the state of emptying, kenosis.

it is an important point of contention in Christian theology, but actually a fairly modern debate, dating to the mid 1900's ((per this link: A Brief History Of The Kenosis Theory))

the question that is under contention is what does it mean that Christ "made Himself of no reputation" ?
that He "emptied Himself" -- emptied Himself of what?

basically, it boils down to did Christ cease to be God when He took on the form of man?
i.e. did He empty Himself of deity - or at least, some of the attributes of deity?

is He always God, or is He, while on earth, a mere man without any divine qualities?

it's a topic that in recent weeks i've discerned to be very important to several other topics -- some of your views on this topic have been very evident based on how you treat other topics. it is a fairly fundamental thing to how we understand Who Christ is and how to comprehend what He said as recorded in the gospels.
But i don't remember there being any actual formal topic specifically about this in the BDF... anyway there ain't any recent one, ha!

so here it is.
let's dive in!

for my part, i think there are some clues in the text itself that tell us ((and other things in other passages that confirm it)) -- but i am not trying to proselytize here but engender discussion. i think it's something we all ought to take a close, careful, studied look into.
so i'd like to hear from you all before i just just give my own views as tho i'm a teacher and you're just supposed to nod your head & agree. we all know how that works lol
most of you who know me fairly well can already guess what i think, anyway

as always,
thanks for reading my drivel

posthuman · Jan 29, 2023

posthuman said:

sorry, that should be 1800's --
from the little bit of research i've poorly accomplished, it really became a part of what we call now 'modernism' during the late 19th / early 20th century, tho it is found as a debate in some writings in the 1600's
((ran out of editing time))

doh!

i'm sure one of you out there with more knowledge of church history can fill in the gaps.
some of y'all are pretty smart =]

Nehemiah6 · Jan 30, 2023

posthuman said:

"Made Himself of no reputation" is the correct INTERPRETATION of "emptied Himself".

When Christ took the position of a Servant (of God and men) and was "made in the likeness of men" He set aside the brightness of His glory and the majesty of His person. He was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. Other than that Christ did not empty himself of His deity (that He is God) nor did He empty Himself of His power to do miracles or to forgive sins. In this case an interpretation was necessary to avoid any serious theological error and the KJV did the right thing..

Pemican · Jan 30, 2023

The view I have been taught is that Christ is fully God and fully human at the same time, but that He gave up the independent use of His deity and subordinated Himself to the will of the Father. He never gave up His deity. He is the God-man forever. When He did a miracle from His deity it was always according to the will of the Father. What the Father showed Him to do is what He did, every step of the way to the cross.

MrE · Jan 30, 2023

posthuman said:

the word is Greek, from Philippians 2, quoted below in kjv, with some context --

If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name:

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Philippians 2:1-8)

the phrase here "made Himself of no reputation" is literally:

but did empty himself

(Philippians 2:7 ylt)

the verb "to empty" is in Greek, κενόω, transliterated, kenoo -- the noun form for the state of emptying, kenosis.

it is an important point of contention in Christian theology, but actually a fairly modern debate, dating to the mid 1900's ((per this link: A Brief History Of The Kenosis Theory))

the question that is under contention is what does it mean that Christ "made Himself of no reputation" ?
that He "emptied Himself" -- emptied Himself of what?

basically, it boils down to did Christ cease to be God when He took on the form of man?
i.e. did He empty Himself of deity - or at least, some of the attributes of deity?

is He always God, or is He, while on earth, a mere man without any divine qualities?

it's a topic that in recent weeks i've discerned to be very important to several other topics -- some of your views on this topic have been very evident based on how you treat other topics. it is a fairly fundamental thing to how we understand Who Christ is and how to comprehend what He said as recorded in the gospels.
But i don't remember there being any actual formal topic specifically about this in the BDF... anyway there ain't any recent one, ha!

so here it is.
let's dive in!

for my part, i think there are some clues in the text itself that tell us ((and other things in other passages that confirm it)) -- but i am not trying to proselytize here but engender discussion. i think it's something we all ought to take a close, careful, studied look into.
so i'd like to hear from you all before i just just give my own views as tho i'm a teacher and you're just supposed to nod your head & agree. we all know how that works lol
most of you who know me fairly well can already guess what i think, anyway

as always,
thanks for reading my drivel

Great approach! From one bone man to another. Maybe I can help you flesh this out.

Aaron56 · Jan 30, 2023

Pemican said:

The view I have been taught is that Christ is fully God and fully human at the same time, but that He gave up the independent use of His deity and subordinated Himself to the will of the Father. He never gave up His deity. He is the God-man forever. When He did a miracle from His deity it was always according to the will of the Father. What the Father showed Him to do is what He did, every step of the way to the cross.

This is how I understand it, too.

Aaron56 · Jan 30, 2023

Upon reflection: Jesus did nothing more that what a man could do who was completely submitted to His Father. As Lord and Savior, but also the Son of God, He reflected an economy of life that was not based in this world but the eternal. This is why the appearing of Him in us is “the hope of glory”: we might likewise share in this economy as a co-heir with Him. Primarily this way is defined by righteous, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Cameron143 · Jan 30, 2023

Aaron56 said:

What do you think about Jesus working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit?

Bob-Carabbio · Jan 30, 2023

posthuman said:

the word is Greek, from Philippians 2, quoted below in kjv, with some context --

If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name:

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Philippians 2:1-8)

the phrase here "made Himself of no reputation" is literally:

but did empty himself

(Philippians 2:7 ylt)

the verb "to empty" is in Greek, κενόω, transliterated, kenoo -- the noun form for the state of emptying, kenosis.

it is an important point of contention in Christian theology, but actually a fairly modern debate, dating to the mid 1900's ((per this link: A Brief History Of The Kenosis Theory))

the question that is under contention is what does it mean that Christ "made Himself of no reputation" ?
that He "emptied Himself" -- emptied Himself of what?

basically, it boils down to did Christ cease to be God when He took on the form of man?
i.e. did He empty Himself of deity - or at least, some of the attributes of deity?

is He always God, or is He, while on earth, a mere man without any divine qualities?

it's a topic that in recent weeks i've discerned to be very important to several other topics -- some of your views on this topic have been very evident based on how you treat other topics. it is a fairly fundamental thing to how we understand Who Christ is and how to comprehend what He said as recorded in the gospels.
But i don't remember there being any actual formal topic specifically about this in the BDF... anyway there ain't any recent one, ha!

so here it is.
let's dive in!

for my part, i think there are some clues in the text itself that tell us ((and other things in other passages that confirm it)) -- but i am not trying to proselytize here but engender discussion. i think it's something we all ought to take a close, careful, studied look into.
so i'd like to hear from you all before i just just give my own views as tho i'm a teacher and you're just supposed to nod your head & agree. we all know how that works lol
most of you who know me fairly well can already guess what i think, anyway

as always,
thanks for reading my drivel

I've always thought of it as the opposite of "God hiding in a "Man suit" pretending to be a human".
Jesus WAS HUMAN - just like us, but obviously with some "Spiritual Horsepower" that NOBODY ELSE HAD.

Aaron56 · Jan 30, 2023

Cameron143 said:

See my post #7.

He learned obedience by the things He suffered. Hence, He was given the right to function in the fullness of the Godhead.

John, a super-priest of the line of Levi, washed Jesus in water baptism (as the Lamb of God) and the Spirit descended upon Jesus. A voice from heaven proclaimed, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” To the Jews this phrase would have been familiar: It signified a father giving over his estate to his son. The father would take his son around to his creditors and say “this is my son in whom I am well pleased”. What that meant was that from then on when they saw the son it was as if they were dealing directly with the father in all affairs of the father’s estate.

This is why no one comes to the Father except by the Son. Christ Jesus is the One in whom we have a right to the Father’s estate, and the economy that accompanies it. The economy includes the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Cameron143 · Jan 30, 2023

Aaron56 said:

See my post #7.

He learned obedience by the things He suffered. Hence, He was given the right to function in the fullness of the Godhead.

John, a super-priest of the line of Levi, washed Jesus in water baptism (as the Lamb of God) and the Spirit descended upon Jesus. A voice from heaven proclaimed, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” To the Jews this phrase would have been familiar: It signified a father giving over his estate to his son. The father would take his son around to his creditors and say “this is my son in whom I am well pleased”. What that meant was that from then on when they saw the son it was as if they were dealing directly with the father in all affairs of the father’s estate.

This is why no one comes to the Father except by the Son. Christ Jesus is the One in whom we have a right to the Father’s estate, and the economy that accompanies it.

I agree with all that and it's well stated. My question was that though Jesus maintained His deity and could do miracles of Himself, do you believe He would have deferred to the power of the Holy Spirit?

Pilgrimshope · Jan 30, 2023

posthuman said:

“is He always God, or is He, while on earth, a mere man without any divine qualities?”

when he was born he became a man , because man needed an intercessor . An intercessor between mankind and God because no one was worthy mankind became unclean and wicked and there was no man

“Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.

Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths. The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness. We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.

We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us. For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke. According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:1-2, 4, 7-12, 14-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

even though when Jesus was born and understood who he is he became one of us who by our very existence must become subject to God. In essence he became a perfect man and gave up that earthly existance for us and then returned to his glory in heaven as God the father

The son became a high priest which need to be a perfect man and have a perfect relationship with God in order To intercede and atone for thier sins having been one of them and been through what they endure in flesh and blood he is the perfect intercessor

awhile Jesus was on earth he became a subject like men are to God he says “ God is with me because I do everything he says “ he says “ my words aren’t my own words but the father who sent me they are his words I speak “

He clearly makes his own self subject to Gods authority because that’s part of being a perfect man . There was no perfect man so our God became a perfect man to save us

when he did it after wards

“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s not the claim of a man but while he dwelt among us he lived as one of us in order to redeem us and be our propitiation

Aaron56 · Jan 30, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Ah!

The grace of God was on Jesus from the beginning. I think, and this is just my thoughts: Before the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus at His baptism, the Holy Spirit gave him power because He obeyed his Father. After He was filled with the power of the Holy Spirit, He was then given the right to confer the Holy Spirit to others. This would include the right to baptize people in the Spirit and in power.

Continuing the understanding that those in Christ share in the same estate of the Father, we see that others are also given the right to confer the Holy Spirit, such as the example of Ananias laying his hands on Saul and conferring the Holy Spirit to him.

And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Now, the laying on of hands is not always required for someone to receive the Holy Spirit. But it is a way that He is conferred to others. I have witnessed this.

MrE · Jan 30, 2023

Bob-Carabbio said:

LOVE that Bob! God in a man suit pretending to be human, doesn't sound like a very honest endeavor. I don't think God is a play-actor or pretender.

Cameron143 · Jan 30, 2023

Aaron56 said:

Ah!

The grace of God was on Jesus from the beginning. I think, and this is just my thoughts: Before the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus at His baptism, the Holy Spirit gave him power because He obeyed his Father. After He was filled with the power of the Holy Spirit, He was then given the right to confer the Holy Spirit to others. This would include the right to baptize people in the Spirit and in power.

Continuing the understanding that those in Christ share in the same estate of the Father, we see that others are also given the right to confer the Holy Spirit, such as the example of Ananias laying his hands on Saul and conferring the Holy Spirit to him.

And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Now, the laying on of hands is not always required for someone to receive the Holy Spirit. But it is a way that He is conferred to others. I have witnessed this.

Thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

MrE · Jan 30, 2023

posthuman said:

It's a great question-- even though it's likely a very uncomfortable topic that some people would never want to approach. There are many sites where the topic would be quickly banned and no such discussion would be permitted. Hopefully this isn't one of them.

He (the Christ) obviously emptied himself of something- but what? The snap-response is that 100% God and 100% man claim-- rarely, if ever defined on what that might look like and how that might be. --Also absent of any percentage deduction with respect to this passage in Philippians. It's as wholly unsatisfying as any 'pat answer' might be-- said quickly without much thought attached. I agree with you that it is an important topic and I look forward to hearing your perspectives- as I don't yet know you and couldn't hazard a guess on what your opinion might be. -I do know what most orthodox thinkers would say.... because it's simply what most have been taught and most swallow teachings like fish take a worm without much consideration.

cv5 · Jan 30, 2023

posthuman said:

the word is Greek, from Philippians 2, quoted below in kjv, with some context --

If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name:

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

(Philippians 2:1-8)

the phrase here "made Himself of no reputation" is literally:

but did empty himself

(Philippians 2:7 ylt)

the verb "to empty" is in Greek, κενόω, transliterated, kenoo -- the noun form for the state of emptying, kenosis.

it is an important point of contention in Christian theology, but actually a fairly modern debate, dating to the mid 1900's ((per this link: A Brief History Of The Kenosis Theory))

the question that is under contention is what does it mean that Christ "made Himself of no reputation" ?
that He "emptied Himself" -- emptied Himself of what?

basically, it boils down to did Christ cease to be God when He took on the form of man?
i.e. did He empty Himself of deity - or at least, some of the attributes of deity?

is He always God, or is He, while on earth, a mere man without any divine qualities?

it's a topic that in recent weeks i've discerned to be very important to several other topics -- some of your views on this topic have been very evident based on how you treat other topics. it is a fairly fundamental thing to how we understand Who Christ is and how to comprehend what He said as recorded in the gospels.
But i don't remember there being any actual formal topic specifically about this in the BDF... anyway there ain't any recent one, ha!

so here it is.
let's dive in!

for my part, i think there are some clues in the text itself that tell us ((and other things in other passages that confirm it)) -- but i am not trying to proselytize here but engender discussion. i think it's something we all ought to take a close, careful, studied look into.
so i'd like to hear from you all before i just just give my own views as tho i'm a teacher and you're just supposed to nod your head & agree. we all know how that works lol
most of you who know me fairly well can already guess what i think, anyway

as always,
thanks for reading my drivel

Here is food for thought.

Jhn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

cv5 · Jan 30, 2023

Bob-Carabbio said:

1) Definitely. He is the Last Adam and Kinsman Redeemer. And Avenger of Blood as well. Many people forget about this aspect of His office.

2) Like the Ultimate Spiritual power......Jesus Himself being the source of it.

Aaron56 · Jan 30, 2023

Pilgrimshope said:

“is He always God, or is He, while on earth, a mere man without any divine qualities?”

when he was born he became a man , because man needed an intercessor . An intercessor between mankind and God because no one was worthy mankind became unclean and wicked and there was no man

“Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.

Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths. The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness. We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noon day as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.

We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us. For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke. According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:1-2, 4, 7-12, 14-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

even though when Jesus was born and understood who he is he became one of us who by our very existence must become subject to God. In essence he became a perfect man and gave up that earthly existance for us and then returned to his glory in heaven as God the father

The son became a high priest which need to be a perfect man and have a perfect relationship with God in order To intercede and atone for thier sins having been one of them and been through what they endure in flesh and blood he is the perfect intercessor

awhile Jesus was on earth he became a subject like men are to God he says “ God is with me because I do everything he says “ he says “ my words aren’t my own words but the father who sent me they are his words I speak “

He clearly makes his own self subject to Gods authority because that’s part of being a perfect man . There was no perfect man so our God became a perfect man to save us

when he did it after wards

“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s not the claim of a man but while he dwelt among us he lived as one of us in order to redeem us and be our propitiation

This is good!

Bob-Carabbio · Jan 30, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Just like the Apostles, Paul, and unknown numbers of "just Christians" over the last 2000 years. What's to Think??? God empowers His people as He pleases.

kenosis . . ?

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