kenosis . . ?

In Christ we see God and mankind who is made to be his image.

Whenever this discussion arises, I always think on the following lyrics from "Hark the Herald Angels Sing":

Veiled in flesh the Godhead see
Hail the incarnate Deity
Pleased as man with man to dwell
Jesus, our Emmanuel

These lyrics certainly seem to align themselves with scriptures such as the following ones:

Hebrews 10

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Colossians 2

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

1 Timothy 3

16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Philippians 2

7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Matthew 1

23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

In order for Jesus to be the only mediator between God and men, he had to partake of both natures so he could properly represent both God and men. I believe that "he made himself of no reputation" or "emptied himself" by veiling his Divinity in flesh, and by operating solely under the power the Holy Spirit during his incarnation. I also believe that the veil of his flesh was momentarily lifted, so to speak, on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Anyway, Jesus needed to be made heir of all things as a man so that we might be made joint-heirs with him. In his humanity, which he still possesses, he has been made subject to the Father, and he will remain so throughout all of eternity. This is the sacrifice that he was willing to make in order to redeem us from sin and reconcile us back unto God.

One other very important thing that we must not miss is this:

Paul mentioned what he did in Philippians so that we might have the same mind that Christ had. In other words, the context is that we ought to be humbling ourselves as obedient servants unto God, and even unto the point of death if necessary.

Philippians 2

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Respectfully-- that avoided the question I asked regarding any claim to equality. You made a claim that he did not.

I'm sorry you think I avoided the question - I didn't think I had. I meant to show that through the specific signs He worked, He was demonstrating equal status to God - if not to us at least to the Jews in the specific time He chose to appear

I work during the week and have very little time usually to reply. Give some space and when I have time to devote I'll give a more thorough answer - as well as explain a bit about what I alluded to in the OP about the clues in the text of Phillippians telling us what ((IMO)) is meant by the kenosis - something no one has clued in on so far, so I think/hope it will be elucidative

By Saturday for sure. Depends on situation at the lab

the word is Greek, from Philippians 2, quoted below in kjv, with some context --


the phrase here "made Himself of no reputation" is literally:

the verb "to empty" is in Greek, κενόω, transliterated, kenoo -- the noun form for the state of emptying, kenosis.


it is an important point of contention in Christian theology, but actually a fairly modern debate, dating to the mid 1900's ((per this link: A Brief History Of The Kenosis Theory))

the question that is under contention is what does it mean that Christ "made Himself of no reputation" ?
that He "emptied Himself" -- emptied Himself of what?

basically, it boils down to did Christ cease to be God when He took on the form of man?
i.e. did He empty Himself of deity - or at least, some of the attributes of deity?

is He always God, or is He, while on earth, a mere man without any divine qualities?


it's a topic that in recent weeks i've discerned to be very important to several other topics -- some of your views on this topic have been very evident based on how you treat other topics. it is a fairly fundamental thing to how we understand Who Christ is and how to comprehend what He said as recorded in the gospels.
But i don't remember there being any actual formal topic specifically about this in the BDF... anyway there ain't any recent one, ha!

so here it is.
let's dive in!

for my part, i think there are some clues in the text itself that tell us ((and other things in other passages that confirm it)) -- but i am not trying to proselytize here but engender discussion. i think it's something we all ought to take a close, careful, studied look into.
so i'd like to hear from you all before i just just give my own views as tho i'm a teacher and you're just supposed to nod your head & agree. we all know how that works lol
most of you who know me fairly well can already guess what i think, anyway



as always,
thanks for reading my drivel

In the OT people couldn't look on the full glory of God or they would die.

So, at the least, the Lord Jesus had to leave a lot (maybe all ie. empty) of that glory behind in order to be "incognito" as a man.

Otherwise, everyone would instantly know that He was God and He wouldn't have been able to get people to follow Him by faith.

The mount of transfiguration pretty much explains it; God's glory was always there.

Jesus is the invisible God in the old testsment that stepped into view of mankind and said “ here I Am come to me and live “

Actually Jesus was the visible God in the OT.

He appeared to men either as "the Word of the LORD" or as "the Angel of the LORD". It is God the Father who is the invisible God in both Testaments (but in Daniel He is shown as the Ancient of Days in physical form, and in Revelation He is shown to have a physical form also, yet not fully revealed, just like in Ezekiel).

But here is an example of Christ appearing as "the Word of the LORD" to Abram (later called Abraham): After these things the Word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward. And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus? (Gen 15:1,2)

Now unless the Word of the LORD was a person, how could he be "saying" something to Abram and how could Abram be calling Him "Lord GOD"? So when we read in John 1:1 that "the Word was God" this is exactly what is being referred to. Unfortunately the KJV translators failed to capitalize "Word" in a few places in the OT, and "Spirit" in many place referring to the Holy Spirit in the OT.

I'm pretty sure that's what 'empty' means, no?

But what do you mean by "incognito" as a man?

Was Jesus a man, or was he disguised as a man?

There is no way for us to know how much or how little of Gods Glory that the Lord Jesus had or did not have.


People didn't know that He was God. If He had all of Gods Glory people would instantly be cognitive of that fact.


Pretty good question. But you would have to elaborate on EXACTLY what you mean.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The question is pretty clear. Do you think Jesus was fully God, as people often say? Fully God and fully man— something never said in scripture. Or do you think God emptied himself of something (which would make him less than fully God) when He manifest in Jesus?

Was Jesus a man, God, a man-God, a God-man, a son of God, God disguised as a man (incognito- and thereby a deceiver).
What is it you actually believe?

The Lord Jesus was man and He is God.

He did not manifest 100% of His Glory or else everyone would be instantly dead upon seeing Him.



Like a man who is a black belt fighting a kindergartner. In order to make it a fair fight and semi-interesting he has to hold a lot back. It doesn't mean he's not a black belt or he is disguised as a kindergartner.

The Lord Jesus was like that. Holding back His God-hood purposely. Not to "deceive" but to have mercy.

He was 100% God and was just ‘holding back’ (hiding) His superpowers and didn’t actually empty Himself of anything (scriptural typo?)

Or- He emptied Himself of part of Himself in Jesus (and was in that form less than 100% God)?

I’m still not clear on your actual position.

for my part, i think there are some clues in the text itself that tell us ((and other things in other passages that confirm it))

well, weeks later, let me give you what i think are the textual indications that explain what the 'emptying of Himself' is:


starting here:

Paul is telling us, 'have this mind also' -- that it is the same mindset Christ had when He appeared and walked among men.
what mindset is that?
we need to back up a few verses:

putting others above ourselves, doing nothing out of self-seeking, having 'lowliness of mind' - i.e. humbleness.
it is this mindset we are being told to have, and it is in this context that the taking of human form by the Son of God is being described: His incarnation is being described as an example of putting others before ourselves
and this is a mindset, not a change of nature: we are set on high with Him in heavenly places ((Ephesians 2:6)), and we do not 'lose' that by virtue of our not demanding of others the advantage of it. neither does Christ cease to be the very nature and form of God simply because He did not demand all remove their sandals and cover their faces in His presence.

look at it again with that view, that the reason it is being written right here is that it is an example of self-ordained, voluntary humility for the sake of love:

He is "being in the form of God" i.e. "existing in the form of God" -- that is, He is of substance & nature, God
He therefore had no qualm over speaking of Himself as equal to God, receiving worship as tho equal to God, speaking and acting with all the authority of God. (("did not consider it robbery"))
"but" -- His innate deity notwithstanding -- note that there is no need or cause for this clause unless He is in fact equally God
He "made Himself of no reputation"

this "making one's self of no reputation" and taking the station & form of a servant is equivalent to the mindset of voluntary humility & meekness Paul is giving Christ as an example of, encouraging us to be like-minded in.
Christ, though worthy of all worship and praise, of every honor and having all majesty, humbled Himself to act as our servants, taking on the form of a man voluntarily, seeking our good rather than His own glory, considering us more important than Himself.

is this saying He ceased being God?
only if Paul says he himself ceased to be an apostle when he worked for his own room & board rather than impose himself on a church he had visited to teach.
Paul makes this argument elsewhere - that a workman is worth his wages - while he presents that argument in the context of he himself voluntarily refusing to take wages he is rightfully deserving of.

this is the same with Christ: His "humbling Himself, taking the form of a servant, coming in the likeness of men" is not ceasing to be God: it is a forgoing of the glory and honor He deserves, in order to meekly serve us. It is in the same way that Paul did not demand the 'rights of an apostle' but did not cease to be an apostle ((1 Corinthians 9:1-18)), that Christ did not cease to be God but only foreswore the worship and adoration and absolute obedience due Him.

He set aside His glory not His Godhood -- and the overall message of this whole passage is that we should have this same mind -- setting aside the respect we should be given, making no demands of it from anyone, acting with forgiveness and mercy towards each other, seeking one another's good at our own expense. this does not make us 'cease to be children of God' when we look over an offense; in fact, because that same mind is in Christ - everlasting mercy and lovingkindness - we are called the children of God when we are peacemakers.

and this is how He made peace with mankind: not by ceasing to be Who He is - I AM - but by giving grace where that grace was undeserved.

Modalism was rejected in the third century, and the founding teacher, Sabellius was excommunicated.