Obedience.

Abraham had to DO something BEFORE his faith was credited as righteousness.
He had to GET UP AND GO. Heb 11:8…”8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he left, not knowing where he was going.”
Abraham had FAITH the moment God told him to go. Gen 12…”12 Now the Lord said to Abram,
“Go from your country,
And from your relatives.
And from your father’s house,
To the land which I will show you;…
4 So Abram went away as the Lord had spoken to him; and Lot went with him. Now Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran. “
But even though he had faith, God did not immediately credit his faith as righteousness.
Abraham went to the land of Canaan and God promised to give the land to Abraham. (Gen 12:7). But God did not immediately credit Abraham’s faith as righteousness.
Then Abraham went to Egypt, (Gen 12:10), then Pharoah took Sarah away from Abraham, (Gen 12, after God struck Pharoah, Pharoah returned Sarah to him and he went back to Canaan, (Gen 13:1-4), then God again made promises to Abraham, (Gen 13:14-18), then Abraham fought a battle to rescue his nephew Lot, (Gen 14).
AFTER all these things, finally in Gen 15 God credits his faith as righteousness.
Abraham had faith from the very beginning, but that faith was not credited as righteousness until much later.
His faith NEVER WAIVERED…”Heb 11:8…”8 By faith Abraham, when he was called,…” (Gen 12:1)…”obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he left, not knowing where he was going.”… and Heb 12:…”9 By faith he lived as a stranger in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;…”
Abraham demonstrated something not taught in the vast majority of Christian “churches”; “THE OBEDIENCE OF FAITH”….Rom 1:4…”…Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles in behalf of His name,…” AND Rom 16…”25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now has been disclosed, and through the Scriptures of the prophets, in accordance with the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to OBEDIENCE OF FAITH; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.”
Read the word of God: Abraham HAD TO DO SOMETHING before, BEFORE his faith was credited as righteousness.
OBEY.

Seems to me he had to believe God first. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

It was his belief that led to his actions, not his actions that informed his belief.

What we believe is important because what we believe leads to what we do.

Amen
God calls things that are not , as though they were

He called Abraham righteous beforehand and then tested his faith later in both cases Abraham believed Gods promise of Isaac

Your Statement here is not quite right ------just to clarify this -----

I say
Faith always comes first only then will you obey -----

Abraham obeyed God through having Faith in Him --------Faith always has to be present before obedience -----God's Faith will propel a person to Obey His Command -----Faith without action is dead faith -----

Without God"s Faith which is Saving Faith you can't please God ---So Abraham had God's Faith
'inbirthed in Him before he obeyed -----


this is Hebrews 11:8
Contemporary English Version
Abraham had faith and obeyed God. He was told to go to the land that God had said would be his, and he left for a country he had never seen.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Faith led Abraham to obey


Good News Translation
It was faith that made Abraham obey

Weymouth New Testament
Through faith Abraham, upon being called

"Abraham had to DO something BEFORE his faith was credited as righteousness."

Obedience...yes amen Christ said to them after years of being with Him day and night "if you love me keep my words". When He asked me what is righteousness and how to you get it...you get it by just believing in Christ. Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. I don't think Abraham just got up and went.. I think it took him 25 years

Amen, brother Cam.

Ephesians 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Abraham believed God and that’s known in the written word as faith. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I foresee CC’s grace diminishing towards me because I’m getting tired of all these work related, you can lose your salvation garbage threads, and my negative energy is kindling.

In the times when I start to feel that way I remember that I was every bit as ignorant at one time. How it could have benefitted me if someone had lovingly and patiently come alongside and in much longsuffering gently persuaded me in truth.
Look for your old self in those who prove sometimes difficult. And ask God to help them the way he helped you. Even better, ask God for the privilege to be the one He uses.
Option number two is get a guitar and learn to play kumbaya.

Our issue is with “belief”. We think it is merely a cognitive exercise. The heart, the inner part of man, is the location of belif, not the mind. Our actions prove our beliefs. We will live by what we believe with no exceptions. Our beliefs bear fruit when the beliefs are carried out to their fullness (an immature tree does not bear fruit). So, we may clearly observe what others believe by their actions.

Jesus set such a standard when He said, “Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.”

If our soul is submitted to the leading of the Spirit we will bear spiritual fruit. The soul must give way to the Spirit for the believer to mature in Christ. This is the understanding of the following verse:

“Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.”

I would only change

"We will live by what we believe with no exceptions. Our beliefs bear fruit when the beliefs are carried out to their fullness (an immature tree does not bear fruit). So, we may clearly observe what others we believe by their our actions"

Only because I hold a no judgement of anyone elses relationship policy. There was a time I didn't live like a Christian but I sure believed in Jesus I wasn't mature yet was the problem


Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
James 4:17 KJV

We each know in our mind and heart and conscience what we know , God knows also what we know that is our standard to live by for our own self.

elders or teachers have high standards because they know more , babes don't know the same and don't have the same standard God loves us first before we deserve it , and then we begin to understand him and turn towards him because he loves us at our worst first it takes a lifetime to reach faiths end

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; and patience, experience; and experience, hope: and hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Romans 5:1‭-‬11 KJV

Your right about us needing to mature and act what we believe but we begin with understanding this type of thing which establishes faith and love for gods goodness and mercy towards us and the idea is after we get established then we start being able to hear this type of thing which changes our behaviors and causes repentance

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19‭-‬21 KJV


A believer hearing this isn't going to continually be able to reject it forebrarance patience time with Jesus brings life to the dead and maturity to believers

Immaturity is not a strike against a young believer... it is expected. And simply knowing something is not enough to walk it out. The discipling of the Lord is cumulative. I often have to save young believers from the condemnation of themselves. A baby is not expected to know how to eat with utensils. But if they eat with their fingers when they are 29 there's issues.

The verse I built the understanding on is “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits."

Positioning in leadership assumes a level of maturity necessary to bear fruit: what they believe will be seen. Righteousness will bear righteous fruit. Unrighteousness likewise.

Excellent point about maturity and expectations for ourselves and others as we grow in faith.

Very true. Unfortunately most young believers are left to their own devices to figure out their walk with the Lord.

It is interesting that many see the great commission as a call to evangelism but it is actually a call to discipleship.

brother judging another persons relationship with God by trying to observe thier actions is not a wise position.

If Jesus wants to save someone or doesn’t matter to him at all how you or I judge them it’s irrelevant because he’s the only judge consider the lesson here

“And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, and stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee.

And he saith, Master, say on. There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both.

Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head. Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet. My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭7:37-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬


The self righteous folk who are observing and judging other peoples deeds and motives can’t see thier own which is what they will need to deal with regarding judgement

“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-13‬ ‭

everything you know isn’t meant to turn against immature believers and try to judge whether they believe or not and start pretending to be anyone else’s judge but your own

you can judge you brother by what you know but your role will never be to judge anyone else and whether they believe or not based on what they do, Jesus stopped tbat with the laws of Moses

Brother, I think you're reading too much into it. I understand your view.

Bing to the Go!

We read it as a call to make converts. It is a call to make disciples.

Now, Jesus was speaking to His disciples when He spoke the Great Commission. Do you suppose that when He said "Go and make disciples" that they knew what that meant? I mean, they had just been discipled by Jesus for 3 years. Don't you think they knew how to also disciple others? Of Course. So it would be expected that they walked very closely with believers, even, like Paul, Peter, and John, calling the believers their children in the Lord.

What we've created is a religious system of ironclad principles, they are true and trustworthy, with the clay on unfired converts, there is no strength in them. That is why we witness, today, so many churches bending to the flow of the world's wind. They rush to remain relevant so that they may continue winning converts but, by doing so, they abandon the basic principles of their callings and identities in Christ.

I could write several pages about this.

a you know how Jesus like a the kingdom to gardening ? Or a fishing net ? Or a merchant seeking pearls ?

He does that because we understand those things . I’ve loved gardening for about fourty years consider this

A Gardener starts with a seed he plants it and cares for the soil it’s planted in after some time passes a little sprout pops out of the ground. It’s not time to harvest any fruit because the plant is a baby it’s not capable of having fruit yet it has to grow first and develope

air has a tiny stock , little tiny leaves capable of grabbing little bits of light and its roots little bits of water because the little sprout is just that a little sprout no one expects any fruit because it’s not mature

after awhile you see the stock start hardening and bark starts to appear it gets thicker and stronger leaves are now bigger and darker green and healthier looking but still there is no fruit yet because it’s not a sprout but it’s also not mature it’s at a stage of strengthening so later it can hold the wieght of the fruit on its branches

But still no one is expecting any fruit from it because it hasn’t budded yet it hasn’t kicked into the flower stage form the fruit it’s not that season yet

eventually the healthy plant buds and there are little tiny immature fruits beginning to grow and appear everywhere but they aren’t ready yet they aren’t ripe

in the end the gardener is just patient and caring he tends the garden but the seed because ot rooted grows with the light and rains day in day out

sin die time the gardener will harvest his fruits and be well supplied

she had to first plant the seed , tend the feeder weed it keep the insects that devour away from it but the seed still has to have time and patience to root and grow and mature or you’ll never have any fruit of you try harvesting the seedlings or immature stage plants

God is a patient gardener he plants seeds cares for them watches over them tends then with love and patience prunes then when needed ect but he does t expect fruit from an immature plant he sees the fruit ahead that it will bear with his patience and care

if you plant two exact same seeds months apart and then Harvest on schedule of the first , your just destroying the one planted after and it’s not going to have time to bloom no fruit would be the fresheners fault in that case he didn’t allow time for his crop to bloom before he demanded the fruits

inmaturity is absolutely a reason young believers don’t have fruit that’s apparent to you when you observed them

notice how many times Jesus uses like ring things to gardens seeds trees ect it’s because he is expressing an indersrsnding about the gospel we can grasp

It’s pretty conducive to thinking about what it says in the Bible though we should do that

I know it won't surprise you, but many older believers have difficulty understanding this concept of maturity. They spend many of their good years under the weight of trying to avoid sin yet have no more resolution to do so since the time they professed their love of Jesus Christ.

brother I always try to really see what your saying because I respect your views and opinions a lot And agree with you most often

can I share a short testimony summary real quick ? from the time I can remember I was hearing my daddy read Bible stories I heard of Daniel and the lions den , shadrach meshach and abednego and the fiery furnace

daddy read of talking donkeys angels and dragons ect I always heard the scripture then and it was seeds being planted I was a true believer of John 3:16 that’s was my heart regarding salvation and I truly believed anyone who believes in Jesus will receive everlasting life

the day I turned 18 the world changed alot for me truly alot. I still believed and for about the next fifteen years it was a struggle for me to just comprehend what I had been through from 18-20 and I turned to alcohol and being honest with you I wasn’t living s Christian life really at all I was living a sinful life but I know that now looking back

At the time I was trying to survive from one day to the next I always believed in Jesus and always said a prayer when I was in a tight spot but my mind and heart weren’t able to hear God at that point in my life all I knew was keep believing in Jesus and he’s going to save my soul when it matters

I became an an alcoholic and had a lot of mental struggle related to ptsd I used to call it “mind shock “ not making an excuse at all for alcoholism but im just saying I was a mess a total wreck from 18-35

The reason I can’t look at what others are doing wrong and judge them is because I remember when I wasn’t doing anything right but I believed in Jesus with all my heart. I remember that he had a thousand reasons to let me go and forsake me like I had forsaken him so often in my actions

he had a thousand chances to judge me guilty and be done with me justly because I deserved it through those times but all those times when I wasn’t worthy of his time , his love , his patience and forebearance all those times I had been drunk or gotten on a fight or insulted people or started some trouble or something jesus never did let me go

Every time I deserved to be lost because of my own imperfections and shortcomings my own poor choices and sin he still loves me through all of those times when my actions didn’t reflect Christian faith at all he was already with me and because he never abandoned me at my worst and instead loves me back to wholeness and peace now my heart is his , he won me over he won my obedience and ny loyalty he won my attention with his love for me , not because o was worthy to be loved , but because he is worthy to love even those of us who don’t yet show that worth to anyone else

Jesus sees people truly as we cannot. He’s with them in the hardest times knows all thier scars he knows thier level of understanding knows when they do something they know is wrong or if they did something and “ knew not what they were doing “

Because Jesus accepted me even when I wasn’t doing things right in people’s sight , because he loves me when I was at my worst , now he gets my best

Jesus is a healer of broken and contrite sinners and sometimes it takes many years I’m proof to myself of that I shared this with you just to try to explain why I have the position I have regarding the yet to bear much fruit folks

i spent have my life as a believer not bearing much fruit at all but I always believed what ininderrrood it just wasn’t much back then though I’d heard it I never really grasped it or let it take root

a I try to see everyone myself included as a still growing and blooming tree some just haven’t reached the budding phase