Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

Why do you continue to ignore the direct points of my argument? Is it because you can't answer them? If you can't, that's okay but I would tone down the rhetoric until you can prove your point.

Throwing verses around but not yet having full understanding of them is counterproductive. Not only for you but others that you may share them with.

I am willing to put my beliefs to the test. I was hoping to see the same from you.

But you have failed to say that the "mystery" which was hidden in earlier times but has now been revealed through Paul is that of the Church (the Body of Christ) in which both Jews and Gentiles are in one Body, and Christ is the Head.

When the Jews read about the salvation of the Gentiles prior to the epistles, they assumed that Jews and Gentiles would remain separate entities, even though saved. But the NT shows that God has abolished all distinctions within the Church (the Body of Christ). "There is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile)". Why? The answer is found in Romans 10:12,13: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

At the same time, the nation of Israel (the twelve tribes) will have a distinct role in the land of Greater Israel in the Millennium and beyond. Which means that God has an eternal plan for the Church and also an eternal plan for Israel. Replacement Theology is false. But God will begin His directly dealings with Israel only after the Rapture. See Romans 11. There is a finite number of Gentiles which must be added to the Church before it is raptured.

Many Christians have a hard time understanding the grace of God, particularly to unbelieving Jews. But it all goes back to God's promises to Abraham.

I think you missed this bro. And maybe the point too.....

Eph 3:3
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

thank you both for your input. I have not detailed what the mystery is because up to this point all I have pointed out is that the gospel is not the mystery ... the mystery is separate and distinct from the gospel.

The mystery is glorious in its scope and is much more in-depth than the gospel (Jesus Christ and Him crucified – 1 Cor 2:2).

1 Cor 3:1 tells us Paul could not go into in-depth spiritual matters with some in the Corinthian church because in some cases they werere newly born again and/or they were carnal and needed to be fed with the milk of the word ... the gospel is the milk upon which the believer must feed before he or she can go into the more in-depth spiritual realities such as the mystery, the hidden wisdom which Paul indicates in 1 Cor 2:6 he discussed with those who were more mature.

In this thread alone (Post 284) and in many threads at Christian Chat, I see 1 Cor 2:14 misutilized to infer that the verse relates to the gospel. That is error. 1 Cor 2:14 does not refer to the gospel ... 1 Cor 2:14 refers to the mystery, the hidden wisdom.

Until that truth is understood, folks will continue to tell others that one must be regenerated (born again) in order to believe the gospel. So, basically, what is taught is that a person must be born again before he or she can believe the gospel by/through which one is born again.

Ephesians 1:13 makes clear that first we heard ... then we trusted ... then we believed ... then we were sealed (regenerated/born again).

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise
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This (the part in BLUE ^ ) is speaking of that which Eph1:20-23 (see: 'WHEN [as to its existence]' ) refers to as being an altogether new creation ("created IN Christ Jesus") of which Christ is "HEAD" [of the "BODY"], which is something that was not known in the OT times.
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[for example: many ppl incorrectly assume that "the Olive tree" in Rom11 is (identified as) "salvation" or as "Christ" (or "body of Christ") or even as "Israel [which they mistakenly label 'the New Israel']," but which "the Olive Tree" is not identified as any of those things (thus, Arminianists who see "loss-of-salvation" here in this text, are not correct; and Replacement Theologians who see this passage as speaking of a supposed "the New Israel" are not correct; and others who see this passage as speaking of "individual salvation" are not correct; etc etc)]

"... so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace," Eph2:15 (see also Eph2:10 "having been created IN CHRIST JESUS...," etc)

Sure sounds like a catholic practice.

Might I ask: where do you see in Scripture this PARTICULAR "mystery" revealed?

it is mentioned as being hid in God and kept secret in the following verses:

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began

Ephesians 3:4-5 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ

Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints


... and it is revealed here, along with some marvelous promises/benefits:

Ephesians 3:

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


In vs 10, God tells us the intent of the mystery ... to reveal to principalities and powers in heavenly places the manifold wisdom of God.

And vss 18-19 - to comprehend with all saints the breadth, length, depth, height (all dimensions) ... to know the love of Christ which surpasses our understanding ... to be filled with all the fulness of God. c'mon - that is fantastic!!! and goes far beyond Christ and Him crucified (the gospel).


And check out these verses in Colossians:

Colossians 2:2-3 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
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LOL....OK. I thought there was some other mystery you were referring to.

BTW....there ARE in fact SEVERAL mysteries noted in the Bible. That is just one of them. And it has been revealed, so mysery no longer.

Correct ... not known ... even though prophets of old searched diligently to know:

1 Peter 1:

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Faithful prophets of old saw the sufferings of Christ and the glorification of Christ, but they did not see this time of the church, the body of Christ over which the Lord Jesus Christ is Head ... with all members functioning as He directs ... working together to build up the body in love so that no member is tossed to and fro by winds of doctrine whereby some lie in wait to deceive.

Ephesians 4:11-16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints [full equipping of each member], for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
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nope ... my focus was to clarify that the mystery is not the gospel and the gospel is not the mystery. 1 Cor 2:14 refers to the mystery, not the gospel ... claiming 1 Cor 2:14 is proof that one needs to be regenerated (born again) to hear the gospel is improper interpretation of the verse.

cv5 said:

BTW....there ARE in fact SEVERAL mysteries noted in the Bible.

Click to expand...

yep ... love it!!!

cv5 said:

That is just one of them. And it has been revealed, so mysery no longer.

Click to expand...

well it's still a mystery to some because they conflate the gospel with the mystery and end up not understanding the the mystery ... (or the gospel because they then claim that a person must be born again in order to believe the gospel ... when that is not what Scripture teaches).

Romans 10:

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

...

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

...

17 So then faith by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


In vs 9, the word "confess" is translated from the Greek word homologéō which means to agree; to profess (confess) because in agreement; to speak the same thing; "assent, agree with, confess, declare, admit" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 120).

So, a faithful believer preaches the gospel to an unbeliever and the unbeliever "confesses" (agrees) with what he/she hears and believes the Word of God (faith by hearing and hearing by Word of God). God then works in the hearer and he/she is born again.

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
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Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

However, quiet honestly, I don't know what to say to you, since you reject the words that are in these verses. You said in this paragraph:

And when we read the context, we see that people reject God. God reaches out and He is rejected ... not because folks cannot hear or cannot believe, but because after hearing they choose something other than God in which to place their faith.

Yet, this thought process is clearly rejected in these verses:

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.

Matthew 13:15, is a vivid picture, of the state of the natural man. He can hear and see natural things, things of the world but lacks spiritual understanding. Why? Because they have not the work of Grace in their heart. The prophecy of Ezekiel is yet unfulfilled for them. As such, these things are hidden from them.

In Matthew 13:16, we see the state of those that have had a work of grace in their hearts. Their understanding of spiritual things is Ezekiel's prophecy fulfilled.

Having the two states, is why the Lord chose this time to explain the parable of the sower. Mat. 13:18-23. Those who are blessed in Mat. 13:16, are the ones who had the ground prepared beforehand. The "good ground" of Mat. 13:21.

awelight,

Can anyone dead spiritually comprehend spiritual truth? No, that would be an impossibility because in death, they are completely oblivious to it - just as all the dead are oblivious and without comprehension. For it not to be so, one must first be made alive spiritually, and by/from that is true understanding obtained. Therefore, natural man, until and unless becoming born-again, will remain oblivious to the spiritual and will never understand.

[Luk 1:77 KJV]
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

[Eph 2:1, 5 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; ...
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
[Col 2:13 KJV]
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Everyone is spiritually dead until they are born again. But that does not mean that they cannot respond to the Gospel. So your whole philosophy is based on a rejection of the power of the Gospel (the living Word) and the power of the Holy Spirit (who is God) to convict and convince sinners. You are actually opposing what God has revealed about the power of the Gospel. Which means that deep down you do not really believe God.

That's exactly what it means - that a dead person CANNOT respond nor be convicted UNTIL being made alive - that was the whole point.
Next time you're around a dead person keep telling them to make themselves alive - and if they don't then tell them they're just not trying hard enough. In order to understand the gospel, God's power must first be manifested in/by Him making that person alive. Only for those will the gospel be comprehended. Did you see the word "dead" in those verses? God is the one who wrote them and He didn't use words carelessly nor loosely - He meant exactly what He wrote. Where He wrote "dead", He meant "dead" and all that goes with it.

If the spiritually dead could not respond to the Gospel. why would Christ command His apostles and the Church to preach the Gospel to EVERY CREATURE? And the Bible definitely does NOT teach that a sinner in first born again and then believes. That is absurd on the face of it.

So why preach the gospel to everyone? That is explained here:

[2Co 2:14-16 KJV]
14 Now thanks [be] unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one [we are] the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who [is] sufficient for these things?


It definitely does teach that. Maybe you consider it absurd because you are lacking understanding. Only in being indwelled by the Holy Spirit does someone become born-again. And belief is only as a fruit of the Spirit which comes from that.

[Luk 8:10 KJV] 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

[Jhn 14:17 KJV] 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[Jhn 3:3 KJV] 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[Jhn 1:13 KJV] 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Read the verses, awelight:

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

These folks closed their own eyes ... and God allows folks to turn from Him. However, in Matt 13:16, we see that God blesses those who do not close their eyes ... those who do not turn from Him.


So, yes, in reading the context, we see that people reject God. God reaches out and He is rejected ... not because folks cannot hear or cannot believe, but because after hearing they choose something other than God in which to place their faith. Romans 1:18-32 tells us exactly what occurs when folks suppress the truth in unrighteousness ... see Post 49 in this thread. As people continue to reject God and step further and further away from Him, God gives them up ... He lets them go their way.
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