And Moreover I Saw Under The Sun The Place Of Judgment,

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Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#41
I heard a fascinating sermon from a pastor/seminary professor on the final verses of Ecclesiastes. From his point of view, Solomon did not write these. It was a Godly narrative from later scribes/priests summing up the destructive human nature tendencies towards greed and excess, which summarized Solomon's reign in several ways.

Unlike his father, David, Solomon lived in excess and took materialism and sensuality to an extreme. King David repented of his failings; there is no indication his son ever did.

If nothing else, at least Solomon honestly documented the false doctrine that wealth and pleasure lead to happiness...
Yes that’s true of the introduction and conclusion for sure Solomon’s life and words are what the book is about it’s a narrative written by a narrator solomons wisdom and life experiences is the subject matter of the narration
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#42
Of course they're true, once you understand the perspective from which they are written.
I asked you to tell us if they are true IN LIGHT OF ALL GOSPEL TRUTH. And you failed. Every one of those statements is false in the light of the Gospel.
 
Dec 21, 2020
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#43
I asked you to tell us if they are true IN LIGHT OF ALL GOSPEL TRUTH. And you failed. Every one of those statements is false in the light of the Gospel.
You're not very convincing... :)

I need more than you telling me I'm wrong.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#44
From a Christian point of view, we need to keep in mind Solomon was documenting his experiential lifestyle from a secular perspective
Correct. And he included "madness" in that experiment.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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#49
1: 9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
Really? In the light of Gospel Truth? So here is Scripture to REFUTE this: And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:27,28)

Was the sacrifice of Christ something new under the sun? Absolutely. There has never been such a sacrifice nor will there ever be again. And because it was indeed the New Testament Paul devoted 2 Corinthians chapter 3 to this very subject: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.

The incarnation, life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ were all something new under the sun. That is why it is called "the glorious" Gospel of God. His transfiguration was also something new under the sun. His teachings were also new under the sun. And Jesus said "A GREATER THAN SOLOMON IS HERE".

Ecclesiastes has many true statements and many false statements. And if Christians cannot separate the false from the true IN THE LIGHT OF GOSPEL TRUTH they will be deceived (like the cultists).
 
Dec 21, 2020
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#51
Really? In the light of Gospel Truth? So here is Scripture to REFUTE this: And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Mt 26:27,28)

Was the sacrifice of Christ something new under the sun? Absolutely. There has never been such a sacrifice nor will there ever be again. And because it was indeed the New Testament Paul devoted 2 Corinthians chapter 3 to this very subject: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life.

The incarnation, life, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Christ were all something new under the sun. That is why it is called "the glorious" Gospel of God. His transfiguration was also something new under the sun. His teachings were also new under the sun. And Jesus said "A GREATER THAN SOLOMON IS HERE".

Ecclesiastes has many true statements and many false statements. And if Christians cannot separate the false from the true IN THE LIGHT OF GOSPEL TRUTH they will be deceived (like the cultists).
Solomon is talking about mankind, from mans perspective, and the things mankind does, and experiences.

He is not talking about things God does.
 

SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
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Grand Rapids, Michigan
#52
Solomon is talking about mankind, from mans perspective, and the things mankind does, and experiences.

He is not talking about things God does.
Solomon was a depressed person on the whole, and he certainly doesn't express a faith-based, hopeful view of life:

"For in much wisdom is much grief, And he who increases knowledge increases sorrow" (Ecc. 1:18; NKJ).

This may be true from a worldly perspective because it is depressing looking at the state of humanity and this world separated from God, and the more we know, the more depressed we can become (just watch cable news all day if you don't think this is true).

However, that is not true from a Christian point of view. We are encouraged to grow in Godly knowledge and wisdom, which will lead to greater joy and hope in our relationship with Jesus:

"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen" (II Peter 3:18).

We can learn a lot from Solomon and other poor examples of leadership in the Bible on what not to do and how to live a successful life. Jesus Christ and His Word are the foundation for true knowledge & wisdom.
 

SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
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Grand Rapids, Michigan
#53
Solomon was a depressed person on the whole, and he certainly doesn't express a faith-based, hopeful view of life:

"For in much wisdom is much grief, And he who increases knowledge increases sorrow" (Ecc. 1:18; NKJ).

This may be true from a worldly perspective because it is depressing looking at the state of humanity and this world separated from God, and the more we know, the more depressed we can become (just watch cable news all day if you don't think this is true).

However, that is not true from a Christian point of view. We are encouraged to grow in Godly knowledge and wisdom, which will lead to greater joy and hope in our relationship with Jesus:

"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen" (II Peter 3:18).

We can learn a lot from Solomon and other poor examples of leadership in the Bible on what not to do and how to live a successful life. Jesus Christ and His Word are the foundation for true knowledge & wisdom.
Even Solomon's opening thesis depicts a grim picture:

2 Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher,
vanity of vanities! All is vanity.
3 What does man gain by all the toil
at which he toils under the sun? (Ecc. 2)


Solomon experienced first-hand how the power, riches, and pleasures of the flesh are all emptiness apart from a strong relationship with our Creator.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#54
Purposed from before the foundation of the world... and given as prophesy in Genesis, and onward.
“but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, ( prophecy )

but was ( fulfillment )manifest in these last times for you,”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#55
We can learn a lot from Solomon and other poor examples of leadership in the Bible on what not to do and how to live a successful life.
Solomon -- for all the blessings he had received -- eventually went into idolatry. Many believe that he was involved with witchcraft and sorcery also.
 

SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
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Grand Rapids, Michigan
#56
Solomon -- for all the blessings he had received -- eventually went into idolatry. Many believe that he was involved with witchcraft and sorcery also.
1 Kings 11

1 King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh's daughter--Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. 2 They were from nations about which the LORD had told the Israelites, "You must not intermarry with them, because they will surely turn your hearts after their gods." Nevertheless, Solomon held fast to them in love. 3 He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. 4 As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been. 5 He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the LORD; he did not follow the LORD completely, as David his father had done.

He had a serious problem with fidelity as well.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#57
Even Solomon's opening thesis depicts a grim picture:

2 Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher,
vanity of vanities! All is vanity.
3 What does man gain by all the toil
at which he toils under the sun? (Ecc. 2)


Solomon experienced first-hand how the power, riches, and pleasures of the flesh are all emptiness apart from a strong relationship with our Creator.
I doubt Solomon was a depressed person. I do believe much of his life was wasted on self and excess.
One preacher said the 3 books Solomon wrote track his life well:

The Song of Solomon was concerning his early life and focused on his pursuit of love.

The book of Proverbs concerned his pursuit of knowledge in his middle adult years.

And the book of Ecclesiastes is a book written in his later years to warn his subjects that a life lived for self, regardless of how productive, is ultimately worthless and vane.

Imagine a man who later in life takes stock of his life and holds court in the palace to leave the wisdom he has garnered over the course of a privileged life to the up and coming of the next generation. That's how I view the book of Ecclesiastes.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#58
I doubt Solomon was a depressed person.
Then why did he say this? Therefore I went about to cause my heart to despair of all the labour which I took under the sun. (Eccl 2:20) He also experienced madness during this time.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#59
Then why did he say this? Therefore I went about to cause my heart to despair of all the labour which I took under the sun. (Eccl 2:20) He also experienced madness during this time.
He's recalling his earlier life.
 

SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
697
446
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
#60
I doubt Solomon was a depressed person. I do believe much of his life was wasted on self and excess.
One preacher said the 3 books Solomon wrote track his life well:

The Song of Solomon was concerning his early life and focused on his pursuit of love.

The book of Proverbs concerned his pursuit of knowledge in his middle adult years.

And the book of Ecclesiastes is a book written in his later years to warn his subjects that a life lived for self, regardless of how productive, is ultimately worthless and vane.

Imagine a man who later in life takes stock of his life and holds court in the palace to leave the wisdom he has garnered over the course of a privileged life to the up and coming of the next generation. That's how I view the book of Ecclesiastes.
Although Solomon did live a life of excess, he did leave a lot of practical advice behind for future generations to learn from. And, Ecclesiastes is not all doom and gloom, either. There are several positive insights shared as well:

A person can do nothing better than to eat and drink and find satisfaction in their own toil. This too, I see, is from the hand of God (Ecc. 2:24; NIV).

We should enjoy the simple pleasures in life like eating, drinking, and enjoying our work.

"Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun" (9:9).

A good marriage is an awesome blessing we should enjoy as well. I don't like the somber tone Solomon adds to this with "...all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun—all your meaningless days" (wow, what a bummer!).

"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom" (9:10).

This is one of my favorite verses from this book. Make the most of the opportunities and time I have been given during this short sojourn on this planet.