Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture

In those cases where Jews are persecuted for being Jewish yes. Having an understanding and expressing it in a thread, no.
It is actually discussions like this that prejudices can be addressed and corrected.

He is THEIR Messiah, Jesus was crucified as King of the Jews, we Gentiles never had any covenant with God, old or new ... we have graciously included into THEIR covenant.

I find it amazing how that so many Zionists can get more worked up over eschatology than then do over doctrines of salvation. LOL

Through the history of the church, there have been good men of God who have held to a-mil, or post-mil or pre-mil views; BUT NOT ZIONSIM OR DISPENSATIONALISM which cropped up in the latter 1800s along with other cults.

I do not see the differences between the three historic views of the church as affecting salvation or Christian fellowship. But, I find Zionism and Dispensationalism to be Jewish heresy. The horrible idea of going back under the Old Covenant after Jesus Christ has fulfilled it, is repugnant. The idea that you can literalize Ezekiel as Dispensationalists do is ridiculous. Try literalizing Ezekiel chapter one and you may end up with aliens visiting earth in the past. Don't laugh, some have seen that there!

I don't argue about it, but I personally lean to a form of postmillennialism that is similar to the spiritual reign of Christ as taught by John Gill in his Body of Divinity -
http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace2/bk5-ch14.html

The Bible must not be so very clear on eschatology or there would not be the three main views held by good men in the church down through history. BUT, Zionism, Dispensationalism, is a Judaizing heresy!! Like the cults believe, they are the truly informed ones, the church through history has just been misled by false teachers. I know of which I speak, I was once a devout Dispensationalist who thought myself fortunate enough to be among those to whom knowledge was increased, Dan. 12:4.

I at that time was totally convinced by Bible footnotes and indoctrination; but thank God I was led to compare the notes to the Scriptures themselves and saw the false teaching.

Oh yes, I'm a racist as well as an anti-semite. I can have a laugh over that!

They rejected Him. And they paid for their rejection.

But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

It was actually God Himself who ejected the Jewish people out of the land of Israel. Twice!

The first exile occurred during the Babylonian exile, around 565 BC. God allowed the Babylonians to destroy Israel because of their sins. God explicitly warned them of many curses if they didn't obey His commandments. There a plethora of such warnnings in Duteronomy 28. These warnings included exile/eviction from the lands He had given them. Duteronomy 28:


36 The LORD will bring you, and your king whom you have set over you, to a nation which you and your ancestors have not known, and there you will serve other gods, of wood and stone, 37and you will be a horror, a byword, a taunt among all the peoples to which the LORD will drive you.

49 The LORD will raise up against you a nation from afar, from the end of the earth, that swoops down like an eagle, a nation whose language you do not understand, 50 nation of fierce appearance, that shows neither respect for the aged nor mercy for the young. 51They will consume the offspring of your livestock and the produce of your soil, until you are destroyed; they will leave you no grain or wine or oil, no issue of herd, no young of flock, until they have brought about your ruin.

36 Just as the LORD once took delight in making you prosper and grow, so will the LORD now take delight in ruining and destroying you, and you will be plucked out of the land you are now entering to possess. 64The LORD will scatter you among all the peoples from one end of the earth to the other, and there you will serve other gods, of wood and stone, which you and your ancestors have not known.

Jesus also foretold of the destruction and diaspora of the Jews from Israel. Not only did they fail to recognize His coming, they crucified Him in the cruelest of fashions:

Luke 19:43-44 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.

Research who paid Scofield to dissect the Scriptures'

We are not the ones in denial

We do not deny these facts, we do not deny Israel's stumble, that they are even now in blindness.

But people are in denial that although they are stumbled they are not fallen, as Paul teaches. That they will not be reconciled. That they will not be saved.

Paul teaches that they shall be.

will get back ... my chicken is cooked

Hopefully when you get back our gooses won't be cooked.

I cannot take credit for the following, as I can't for most of what I post... nothing new under the sun, right... But this was so good I copied it and kept it -

But if some of the branches(Physical Jews) were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot(Elect Gentiles), were grafted in their place to share the richness/rich root (Jesus the Christ) of the olive tree(God's people), do not boast over the branches(Physical Jews). If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root(Christ), but the root(Christ) that supports you. You will say, “Branches(Physical Jews) were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches(Physical Jews), neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others(Physical Jews), if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree(Gentiles), and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree(God's people), how much more will these natural branches(Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree(God's people). Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27 RSV)

But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” (Rom 9:6-7 RSV)

For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God. (Rom 2:28-29 RSV)

But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God. (Gal 6:14-16 RSV)

zionism is american poison that has spread from there to the rest of the world. luckily its not so present elsewhere.

it really is sickening to see people glorify the Christ rejecting jews (and "messianic jews") and listen to them as if they got some hidden esoteric wisdom. i remember seeing them fly out the israeli flag with the occult star of david (star of remphan the bible calls it) and singing hatikva when some israeli guy came in and they were bowing down to him. no backbone like hamburger hagee.

unfortunately we will be stuck with this israel gimmick until the arabs outbreed them and vote in their own guys to the "knesset" or violently take over the state. until then we gonna have to hear about "this generation" being the generation that saw israel become a state, its been 75 years now (even though biblically a generation is usually 40, thats why the book 88 reasons Jesus returns in 1988) and they will keep pushing this until 120 years.

look. the jews have been persecuted by christian and non-christian alike. they have been expelled from every single country they have ever set foot in...... if you have been kicked out of everywhere, maybe its time to take a good long look in the mirror and ask, "why?"

God is going to ask why?

I would not like to be in the shoes of one of whom He asks it

God makes plain what punishment would befall Israel for not recognizing the Messiah and let's be honest, let's call it for what it is, sin. The Light came but men preferred darkness to the Light because their deeds were evil. We deny nothing the scriptures teach about Israel's failure.

Their punishment had been spelled out by every prophet from Moses onwards, God would drive them out of their land to become wanderers in the earth.

But God said nothing about them being hounded and brutalized and murdered by those nations. Poked off into cattle wagons at gunpoint to be gassed. God said nothing about that.

God's plan was that they should go to every nation where the gospel was to be preached and when they witnessed the grace and fruits of God's word among those nations they should be made to recognize their God and turn and be saved. THAT was God's great plan.

Instead what they witnessed was the corruption that was the Roman Catholic Church. And Replacement Theology is their crooked doctrine. The doctrine of the manifest Kingdom of God on earth i.e. the 1, 000 year reign of Christ was abandoned by the RCC and replaced by Amillennialism of which Replacement is part. ... It survived the Reformation because Luther was steeped in it through his catholicism.

Now I tell you God has got a quarrel with the nations because of how they have treated His ancient people, the seed of Abraham to whom many promises remain unfulfilled. God is going to bring those nations up against Israel and against Jerusalem and He's going to slay them. You can read it in Ezekiel 37-38.

my goose was cooked a long time ago

Well this is Paul's teaching

Romans 11, 11
So I ask have they stumbled so as fall? God forbid. But through their trespass salvation has come to [YOU] so as to make Israel jealous.
Now if their trespass means riches for the world and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles HOW MUCH MORE WILL THEIR FULL INCLUSION MEAN?

So JESUS asking to forgive them for they know what they do was null and void?

Depends upon who Jesus was referring to. Also, nothing was going to keep God from pouring out His wrath on Israel in the near future. Their children would be there to experience that wrath.

Why..do you know?
The Lord said he would scatter the nation to the 4 corners of the earth...then he will bring them back...1948.
That they shall be declared a nation in one day..1948.
The nation of Israel is proof of the God of the bible and his testimony....(prophecy)
Further more they are the keepers of the sabbath which points to the 1000 yr reign of Christ.
Jesus was and is a jew, the first 12 were jews, paul was a jew, now here your mirror the first church were jews.
The new testament is the old revealed. Jesus was born, died and resurrected according to GODs feast and appointed times given to the jews.
I could go on.
You have a bunch of jews telling us how to be christian

Dispensationalists believe this verse in Daniel 12 (Dan12:4) is referring to that which will occur in the future "tribulation" years (when the Church which is His body will not be present on the earth), and is therefore applicable to "the wise [of Israel]" of that future time frame (per context [v.1]);
so, at the very least, you had been misapplying this text (and by that I mean, at the very least you were not applying this verse as a "Dispensationalist" does [per its context / being the future trib yrs]... so did you actually understand the Dispensational viewpoint on this passage, when you were a "devout" one? Or you just called yourself one? Just wondering... = ) )