kenosis . . ?

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,689
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#61
mod·al·ism. -ᵊlˌizəm. plural -s. :
the theological doctrine that the members of the Trinity are not three distinct persons but rather three modes or forms of activity (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) under which God manifests himself.
it is of note that such a doctrine could only have been developed in a climate in which it was universally accepted that Jesus Christ was & is at all times fully divine.

it was rejected not on the basis of His humanity stripping Him of His Godhood but on the basis that He is clearly, within the Godhead, distinct from the Father and the Spirit.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,546
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#62
I found it curious that the Trinity included two words that define a relationship: Father and Son, and one word that defines the Spirit: Holy Spirit.

Through these three: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, God wants us to know something about Himself.

Like in this verse: God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power...

"His" is added in the transliteration. Literally, is reads that "God speaks to us by Son." It is only by God the Son that we understand the position of a son of God and we understand the measure of our reconciliation in Him (the Son) to God the Father. By this, God puts on display, and participates in, the economy of heaven. This economy is supported by the Holy Spirit.

Where the Jehovah's Witnesses get it wrong is through their lack of understanding Christ as corporate; a many-membered body made up of the saints. But it could only be so, as God only had two sons: Adam and Christ. Furthermore, only by being immersed into Christ can any son of Adam be reconciled to God; effectively putting on Christ, Who is the measure of the Son afforded participation in the economy of heaven.

There's a lot more that comes to mind but this is just a brief reflection of some of my thoughts.
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,338
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#63
To the Jews this phrase would have been familiar: It signified a father giving over his estate to his son. The father would take his son around to his creditors and say “this is my son in whom I am well pleased”. What that meant was that from then on when they saw the son it was as if they were dealing directly with the father in all affairs of the father’s estate.
Where did you find this?
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,546
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#66
I need more than that....much more.
It’s no different than historians understanding what “sandals“ were as recorded in scripture. Or, you know, “boats”.

The Jew was a professor of Hebrew Antiquity. I believed he knew what he was talking about. I’m not sure if I still have his book but I can check.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,546
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#67
To carry it even further, the first born son was entitled to a double portion of the father‘s estate. Since Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, He was given the titles of both Lord and Christ. Jesus could then rightfully say “all that the Father has is mine“. Those who believed understood this.
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,338
526
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#68
To carry it even further, the first born son was entitled to a double portion of the father‘s estate.
This is OT law

Since Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, He was given the titles of both Lord and Christ. Jesus could then rightfully say “all that the Father has is mine“. Those who believed understood this.
Acts 2:36 states Jesus is both Lord & Christ(Mesiah).
"an old Jew" is not considered a valid witness to me if he has written 100 books.
Folks depend on those as yourself as being accurate in the Word. Notice that nobody else gave it a second glance.
The Bereans didn't accept Paul's teachings until they searched the scriptures, why should I accept "an old Jew?"
 
L

Liverpool

Guest
#69
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
This is beautiful. Thank you Lord Jesus for the cross. Thank you for coming down from heaven to save me. Thank you that you thought of me and had compassion and mercy on me. Thank you for dying for me. Thank for enduring for me. Thank you for being patient with me. Thank you for forgiving me even when I cursed and rejected your name. You still loved me. Thank you for laying down your life for me, that I may have eternal life through you. Let me do the same and lay my life down for you. Let me endure for you. Let me serve and forgive and love others. But above all let me serve you. Blessed be your name. For in Christ to live is to die, and to die is to live. Hallelujah. Glory to God​
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,546
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#70
This is OT law


Acts 2:36 states Jesus is both Lord & Christ(Mesiah).
"an old Jew" is not considered a valid witness to me if he has written 100 books.
Folks depend on those as yourself as being accurate in the Word. Notice that nobody else gave it a second glance.
The Bereans didn't accept Paul's teachings until they searched the scriptures, why should I accept "an old Jew?"
It’s simply part of Jewish history, nothing religious or spiritual about it. You could find it yourself but it would take some study.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
18,471
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#71
Im glad you found a benefit it’s mostly thoughts from the book of Hebrews
that is a remarkable book as to Jesus Christ our high priest and intercessor

That perfect high priest and intercessor is what mankind was lacking and us what Hebrews really is centered upon it’s literally “ the subject “ the first 8 chapters are explaining all this about our high priest in heaven the lord Jesus after he went to heaven

“God ….hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. ( he became one of us in order to overcome death for all Of us )

For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-17‬ ‭KJV‬

“Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭3:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; ( he made himself subject like a man is he became one of us )

though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:7-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever After the order of Melchisedec. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. but this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭7:15-19, 22, 24-28‬ ‭

“Now of the things which we have spoken ( in the first 8 chapters ) this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭8:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Man got themselves in this situation

God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭53:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So no one could intercede for mankind no one was a worthy intercessor and there was no worthy sacrifice for what mankind had done. he saw this and it displeased him so he became that intercessor

“Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke. So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:15-17, 19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭47:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Heb 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,338
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#72
It’s simply part of Jewish history, nothing religious or spiritual about it. You could find it yourself but it would take some study.
I checked it in multiple commentaries & couldn't find it.
Normally I wouldn't give it another thought, but the way you mentioned it made it look like historical context.
Nothing personal, but we have to draw the line somewhere, & better a little tight than a little loose, right?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,068
26,171
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#73
I checked it in multiple commentaries & couldn't find it.
Normally I wouldn't give it another thought, but the way you mentioned it made it look like historical context.
Nothing personal, but we have to draw the line somewhere, & better a little tight than a little loose, right?
Are you meaning the double share to the first born son?

Deuteronomy 21:17 He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double
share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,338
526
113
#74
Are you meaning the double share to the first born son?

Deuteronomy 21:17 He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double
share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.
No.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,546
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#76
I checked it in multiple commentaries & couldn't find it.
Normally I wouldn't give it another thought, but the way you mentioned it made it look like historical context.
Nothing personal, but we have to draw the line somewhere, & better a little tight than a little loose, right?
Doubtful you find it in commentaries. Simply put, most commentary authors are not broad in their studies.

But I’ve known it so long I can’t remember not knowing it. You will find it in Hebrew Traditional studies and Law. It is so common as to not be significant. It deals with the image of the prefect. Jesus referenced this when asked about paying taxes. “Whose head is on the coin?” The Romans, and other cultures, simply changed the coins to the head of their current ruler. There was no question by whose grace the currency was exchanged.

The practice of introducing sons to business creditors had similar, although more ancient, roots. Technically and officially, the father was declaring, “When you see the face of this man you know you are doing business with me.” We have a practice like that in U.S. law whereby the identity of someone may be confirmed by a notary: a person whose stamp and signature, under penalty of law, declares that a certain person authorized a transaction.

So, when the scripture in Hebrews records: “[the Son is ] the brightness of His glory and the express image of His personthis is a legal treatise declaring Christ as the representative of God. When did this occur? When the Father said “This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased”. The Jews, reading the appeal to be reconciled to God in Christ, in the book of Hebrews, would have connected the dots.

But, to leave no doubt, the mother of Jesus completed a similar confirmation when, at the wedding, she told the servants “Whatever He (Jesus) says to you, do it.So, this confirmation occurred in earth and from heaven. But, I might point out, it happened in the natural first.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
18,471
7,263
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#77
Doubtful you find it in commentaries. Simply put, most commentary authors are not broad in their studies.

But I’ve known it so long I can’t remember not knowing it. You will find it in Hebrew Traditional studies and Law. It is so common as to not be significant. It deals with the image of the prefect. Jesus referenced this when asked about paying taxes. “Whose head is on the coin?” The Romans, and other cultures, simply changed the coins to the head of their current ruler. There was no question by whose grace the currency was exchanged.

The practice of introducing sons to business creditors had similar, although more ancient, roots. Technically and officially, the father was declaring, “When you see the face of this man you know you are doing business with me.” We have a practice like that in U.S. law whereby the identity of someone may be confirmed by a notary: a person whose stamp and signature, under penalty of law, declares that a certain person authorized a transaction.

So, when the scripture in Hebrews records: “[the Son is ] the brightness of His glory and the express image of His personthis is a legal treatise declaring Christ as the representative of God. When did this occur? When the Father said “This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased”. The Jews, reading the appeal to be reconciled to God in Christ, in the book of Hebrews, would have connected the dots.

But, to leave no doubt, the mother of Jesus completed a similar confirmation when, at the wedding, she told the servants “Whatever He (Jesus) says to you, do it.So, this confirmation occurred in earth and from heaven. But, I might point out, it happened in the natural first.
You learn something new here every day. Thanks bro well spoken.......(y)
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,338
526
113
#78
Doubtful you find it in commentaries. Simply put, most commentary authors are not broad in their studies.

But I’ve known it so long I can’t remember not knowing it. You will find it in Hebrew Traditional studies and Law. It is so common as to not be significant. It deals with the image of the prefect. Jesus referenced this when asked about paying taxes. “Whose head is on the coin?” The Romans, and other cultures, simply changed the coins to the head of their current ruler. There was no question by whose grace the currency was exchanged.

The practice of introducing sons to business creditors had similar, although more ancient, roots. Technically and officially, the father was declaring, “When you see the face of this man you know you are doing business with me.” We have a practice like that in U.S. law whereby the identity of someone may be confirmed by a notary: a person whose stamp and signature, under penalty of law, declares that a certain person authorized a transaction.

So, when the scripture in Hebrews records: “[the Son is ] the brightness of His glory and the express image of His personthis is a legal treatise declaring Christ as the representative of God. When did this occur? When the Father said “This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased”. The Jews, reading the appeal to be reconciled to God in Christ, in the book of Hebrews, would have connected the dots.

But, to leave no doubt, the mother of Jesus completed a similar confirmation when, at the wedding, she told the servants “Whatever He (Jesus) says to you, do it.So, this confirmation occurred in earth and from heaven. But, I might point out, it happened in the natural first.
I'm not trying to be hard. It sounds acceptable to me, but I can't receive it until I find something on it. In the mean time, I'm looking for it.:)
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
18,471
7,263
113
#79
To carry it even further, the first born son was entitled to a double portion of the father‘s estate. Since Jesus was the only begotten Son of God, He was given the titles of both Lord and Christ. Jesus could then rightfully sayall that the Father has is mine. Those who believed understood this.
That would include us. Great thread BTW.

Jhn 17:9
I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Jhn 17:10
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.


Heb 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
 
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Franc254

Active member
Oct 7, 2022
167
36
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#80
Jesus is the Father, son and spirit...time and again he has shown this from the OT to the new testament...any questions and i will try to answer