Meaning Baptism of the Holy Spirit

WOW NEHEMIAH 6, DISHONEST ? ... maybe not best or correct word I could have used ... I think you are sincere ... but sincerely WRONG. You cannot mix together ... Luke 3.16 with 3.17. They are talking about TWO DIFFERENT matters. You know chapters and verse numbers were inserted by translators for reference. there is a TRANSITION in thought/teaching ABOUT 2 different SUBJECTS ... FROM Luke 16 to Luke 17.

3.16 clearly says Jesus with ... baptize ... believers . with FIRE . How can you not see that ? = holy fire ... Acts 2.3.

3.17 is NOT talking about the BAPTISM John spoke about in 3.16 ... this is now a new subject ... Believers are gathered by Jesus ... THEN ... unbelievers ... are BURNED IN fire ( not Baptized ) = true !

Nehemiah 6 YOU SAID
Out of the millions of Christians who were saved since Pentecost, what small fraction spoke in tongues? Do you have any idea? So you are actually claiming that the majority of Christians did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Which is total nonsense. Even the 3,000 Jews who were saved on the day of Pentecost did not speak in tongues. Had they done so, it would have certainly been recorded.

Every Christian, who is Born Again, receives ... is given ... the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit. You are correct !

However, NO ... not every Christian is Baptized with/in Holy Spirit ... like the 120 in the Upper room.

Yes the 3000 Jews at day of Pentecost ... also received the Born Again experience ... Holy Spirit IN them ... when they repented ... before they were water baptized. BUT WHAT YOUR REFUSE TO SEE ... is that the JEWS ... also received ... the BAPTISM of the HOLY Spirit ( UPON them ... not IN them ) ... just like the 120.

The Baptism of Holy Spirit ... it is a second manifestation.

What FRACTION speak in tongues ? Only God knows. BUT, it is A REAL gift God gives to those who want and believe. It is a real gift and it happens today. HOWEVER, what I'm trying to tell you ...speaking in tongues ... is God's PROOF ... the Born Again believer ... has received the Baptism of HS. This SECOND MANIFESTATION is different from that of the Born Again experience ( INDWELLING experience of HS in believer's life ).

Why don't you pray ... ask God if there is a TWOFOLD manifestation of HS in the life of believers ... yesterday ... and today ?

God bless your honest ... sincere heart ... but, in honesty I believe ( God my witness --- He knows ) you are wrong and what I'm saying is the correct interpretation of scripture chronology/doctrine.

Dear NEHEMIAH 6

Please explain, what you think happened to the 10 disciples on the evening of the Resurrection [ 12 less Judas who died and Thomas who wasn't there ] . Jesus walked into the room ... where the 10 were hiding in fear of the Jews.

John 20: 19 - 22 says:

vs 19 Then the same day at evening [ resurrection evening ], being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and said unto them, Peace be unto you.
vs 20 And when He had so said, He showed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
vs 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
vs 22 And when Jesus had said this, He breathed on them, and said unto them, Receive you the Holy Ghost: WHAT DOES THIS MEAN ?

What else could this mean ... except ... what it says = RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. Therefore, this is WHERE / when the 10 disciples were Born Again ( Holy Spirit came IN them ). This is 50 days BEFORE Pentecost.

At Pentecost, the HOLY SPIRIT ... came UPON ... the 10 ... who were part of the 120. Yes ... it also says, they were also FILLED with Holy Spirit ... but He was already IN them before that = John 20.22 ( I must confess ... that's a very interesting fact ... the disciples/120 somehow got MORE OF HOLY SPIRIT IN THEM ! ). So then ... I conclude at John 20.22 ... the 10 had Holy Spirit IN them ... but they were not FILLED with Holy Spirit [ please God explain that nuance ] ! The FILLING happened at Pentecost ... which does not mean ... that's when the 10 disciples [ and/or the 120 ] were Born Again !

In Acts 1.5 Jesus said: For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Why did Jesus say this to ... the disciples, who were ALREADY born again [ Holy Spirit was IN them ] ??? I know why ? BECAUSE, Jesus was telling the disciples ... there is a SECOND manifestation/experience of the Holy Spirit !

What applied to the apostles does not necessarily apply to all Christians. And you should know that by now. The problem you have to address is that not one of the 3,000 Jews who were saved on the day of Pentecost spoke in tongues. But they all received the gift of the Holy Spirit. That shoots down your theory right there. Had they actually done so, we would certainly have had a record in Acts 2.

1. WOW ... Not a bad argument ... except ... what did the 3000 Jews SEE ?
2. The 3000 were not in the upper room ... so they DID NOT ... see ... the Holy Spirit come UPON the heads of the 120 ... like TONGUES OF FIRE ... or FILL them ( as your correctly say ) . What did they see ???
3. We can only SURMISE ... that after the FIRE fell ... the 120 poured out onto the streets of Jerusalem ... being animated by Holy Spirit ... they were speaking IN TONGUES the wonderful works of God ... SPEAKING in OTHER TONGUES they didn't know/learned ... but in the tongues of the nations of the earth ... and that is why the FOREIGN 3000+ Jews UNDERSTOOD what the 120 were saying ( the 120 didn't understand what they were saying ).
4. So therefore ... the only thing the 3000 Jews could be implying was ... what do THESE TONGUES MEAN ... how is it ... these unlearned Galilaeans ... speak in our language(s) ?
5. Peter ( God's ) answer was ... the tongues is PROOF ... that Joel's ( God's ) promise ... to pour HS UPON all flesh ... the tongues are PROOF ... this is NOW happened.
6. Yes the 3000 ... believed ... got water baptized = saved = HS came INTO them = born again !
7. BUT ... the 120 were also born again ... before Pentecost ... the 10 disciples were born again at John 20.22 ... resurrection evening ... and the rest of the 120 sometime before Pentecost. How do we know. 1st Cor. 15.6 ... called the 500+ ... who saw Jesus before His ascension ... that they were BRETHREN ... God ( the scripture ) would not call them Brethren = born again ... if they were not.
8. Yes the 3000 received ... HS ... in them ... BUT why wouldn't they EXPECT to also receive Holy Spirit UPON them ... WITH the manifestation of the GIFT of TONGUES ???
9. We know ... other later Christians ... SPOKE with other tongues ... Acts 10. 46, Acts 19.6, Paul spoke with tongues, the Corinthians spoke with tongues. Why would God stop giving this wonderful gift ? We see by the other examples ... He didn't .
10. Yes we don't see the 3000 speaking in tongues ... BUT why wouldn't the 3000 expect to get the SAME gift/experience the 120 received ? Clearly ... Cornelius' house did ... the Ephesians did ... ... Paul did the Corinthians did !!! Did God .... skip over the 3000 ... having more RESPECT for later Christians. Not likely. If I was there 2000 years ago ... I would be asking God for the gift of tongues.

I like our conversation now. You are sticking to point ... raising VALID ... objections . BUT, even though we don't see the 3000 speak in tongues ... you have to ask ... why would God not give tongues to the 3000 ... then give tongues to Cornelius and his house, tongues to the Ephesians, tongues to Paul and tongues to the Corinthians ? Why would God ... tell Paul ... how to teach you ( and ... yes the Corinthians ) how to orderly/properly speak in tongues ( not the disorderly stuff the devil wants to point out ). Why would God tell YOU ... forbid NOT to speak in tongues ( 1 st Cor. 14.39 ) ??? Why ? 1st Corinthians 12.10 and the whole of 1st Cor. 14 is PROOF ... God expects TONGUES to be spoken over the ages ... even today ! God does want Christian to speak in tongues ... you have said so ... by referencing 1st Cor. 12.10 = God, dictating He gives this gift ... even today !

I don't agree with your conclusions about 1 Cor. 12. 4 - 11 ... but lets talk about that later.

If you can SEE ... the TWOFOLD manifestation of the Holy Spirit ... disciples/120 Born Again BEFORE Pentecost ... then the 2nd Baptism of HS ... upon the 120 ,... at the Day of Pentecost ... your understanding will change.

Why not try a unique approach ... pray ... ask God if there is a TWOFOLD manifestation of the Holy Spirit ... just like back before and on the day of Pentecost ... and if the SAME manifestations ... are for the Churh today ... for you ! You've got nothing to lose. God will protect you from wrong doctrine.

Thanks for your time ... regardless of our disagreements ... i have enjoyed the lively debate !!!

We're not only close on theology, we appear to be almost identical, which I don't believe I've ever seen before.

So you know, I have another forum I'm active at where there is no charge for starting private conversations. I may become a fully paid member here as well, but in the meantime I could give you the other site name and you could join me there. I'd like to discuss some things with you.

Hi Vindicator . Yes I'd like the name.

So ... you are Born Again ... then do you believe you have also been BAPTIZED in/with the Holy Spirit, with the following/accompanying gift of other tongues ???

I happened to me in stages. Turned to God on my death bed 1980 ... asked if God was there ... got His mercy ... didn't deserve ... survived 13 hour surgery ... walked out of hospital 100 lbs ( down 75 -80 lbs approx ) ... finally walked forward in Church 1985 ... saw misuse tongues etc ... skeptical ... but saw in bible ... was curious ... went looking ... saw abuses ... hesitant .... my Roman Catholic secretary saw the REAL change in the old man ... wanted to know what church I was going to ... she attended with me ... got convicted ... wanted to go forward to the alter ... but wouldn't go unless I came forward ... as the pastor was leading my secretary in repentance/salvation prayer ... as she asked Jesus into her heart ... I FELT like something come DOWN upon her ... then through my hand/arms that were resting on her shoulders ... basically ALL over me ... I could hardly stand ... staggered back to the pews ... sat down and began to cry uncontrollably ... was there until the church was all but empty ... an elder walked over to ask if I was okay ... I turned to say yes ... but nothing but unknown language flowed out of my mouth ... I turned away in shock ... not understanding what had happened ... continued to cry uncontrollably ... again a few minutes later ... elder asked again ... you OK ... again I tried to answer ... but nothing but unknown language came out ... I was concerned ... my secretary was waiting at back of the church ... I got up ... walking back praying OH GOD PLEASE LET ME SPEAK NORMALLY ... thank God ... I was able to speak in English again ... I really didn't know/understand what had happened ... BUT SOMETHING RADICALLY HAPPEN. Niracles were taking place in my life. Then as crazy as it sounds ... for the next months ... I would whistle like I never had done ever before ... often and loudly ... not since. I understand ... there is a tribe iin Africa ... who commmunicates with whistles .... was I whistling in TONGUES ... only God knows. Then one day ... 1.5 years after my secretary event ... I said ... GOD, WHY DON'T I SPEAK IN TONGUES ... His answer ... YES WHY DON'T YOU ? ( rhetorical question ) ! I thought about His reply ... then took the step of faith ... stepped out on the WATER like Peter ... and surprise surprise ... the Holy Spirit gave me utterance !

https://christianforums.net

I go by a different name there, as my usual tag name was already taken here by someone when I first joined. But if you become a member over there under Elijah, I'll be able to send you a conversation and share my own Baptism with you then.

God bless, and hope to talk to you soon.

You must have been pretty young. What were you dying of, if I may ask?

28 ... bowels perforated

Car wreck?

I am just wondering what is the purpose of this gift?

How is it proof?

What's the PURPOSE of tongues ?

Paul ( God ) describes some of this Purpose in 1st Cor. 14. THEE IS SO MUCH TO UNPACK in Corinthians, BUT lets start breaking it down some of it.

1. Since Paul ( God ) takes a whole chapter to instruct the Corinthians ( who obviously have and is using/manifesting the gift of tongues ) ... the GIFT is real and God intends all Christians to have this gift. Why? The book of Corinthians ... and all its precepts ... is/are intended for every Christian over the ages ... just like the Book of Romans ... Bk Galatians ...Bk Ephesians ... Philippians, etc etc. You cannot ... throw out all of ... 1sr. Cor. 14 ... or any other verse in other scriptures ... just because some denomination says so ... because they don't like/understand tongues ... or the devil scares people with abuses of tongues and/or even so-called false tongues. Only God knows if TODAY"S tongues are false. I dare say ... if one tongue someone is speaking ... is one of the 400+ indigenous languages of the Amazon ... someone is going to think it is FAKE ! AND ... I trust God the Holy Spirit to give me/you the REAL GIFT of Tongues.
2. Since tongues is REAL. How do they manifest happen in any Believer? Like Acts 2.4 ... the Bible says the 120 in the Upper Room .... " began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. " Somehow HS is the instigator of our tongues ... within each Believer's spirit .
3. Paul ( God ) says in 1st Cor. 14.14 : "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding ( brains ) is unfruitful." This means, that the person's BRAINS/understanding is not causing the person to speak the language ... and is incapable of translating ( unless God gives the interpretation to the one speaking the tongues or some other Believer ). This is where the terminology ... PRAYING WITH/IN THE SPIRIT stems from. This is a the only reasonable/plausible conclusion. There is a BIG DIFFERENCE ... between ... PRAYING WITH/IN THE SPIRIT ( speaking in language(s) you don't know ) ... and what some Christian argue ... BEING LED IN PRAYER BY THE SPIRIT ( having HS giving you ideas in English ... as you pray in English ).
4. Paul ( God ) says in 1st Cor. 14.2 : " For he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries. " So from this ... we know tongues are real ... and is a supernatural way for us to COMMUNICATE DIRECTLY TO GOD ... bypassing our limited UNDERSTANDING ! For example, if I asked you to pray for my Christian friend in the Ukraine ... we/you don't know where she/husband are ... BUT God does ... so Holy Spirit prompts our spirit to say the "words" ( in unknown tongues ) ... to speak the mysteries God knows ... but our limited understanding is unable to know or comprehend.
5. Paul ( God ) says in 1st Cor. 14.4 : " He that speaks in an unknown tongue EDIFIES himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. " EDIFIES means ... Greek = οἰκοδομέω = oikodoméō = to be a house-builder, i.e. construct or (figuratively) confirm ! So we conclude ... when a person is speaking in tongues ... in his/her prayer closet ... he/she is re-building himself/herself .. spirit/soul/body ! I DARE SAY THAT IS A REAL BENEFIT ... that a person praying in his/her KNOWN language ( like English for us ) does not enjoy !
6. Paul ( God ) says in 1st Cor. 14.15 : " What is it then? I will pray with the spirit ( = pray with tongues = unknown languages ), and I will pray with the understanding ( = pray with his Hebrew/Greek known languages ) also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. " So Paul is saying ... he will flip ... back and forth ... from Hebrew to tongues ... when he is in his prayer closet ! We do the same thing ... when God has given us ... gift of tongues.
7. Paul ( God ) says in 1st Cor. 14.5 : " I would that ye all spake with tongues, ... " Wow. God want all the Corinthians ( us ) to speak with tongues. Yes the verse goes on to say ... in a public setting ... where people are unlikely to know the UNKNOWN TONGUES you are speaking ... that instead ... speak English words of prophecy ... so that the hearer will be profited/blessed.
8. Paul ( God ) says in 1st Cor. 14.39 : " Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. ". Yes ... desire to prophesy ... in your English language so others are profited/understand what is being said ... BUT forbid not to speak with tongues. That ADMONITION ... from God ... is still relevant for today !

We know/conclude ... that praying in tongues means ... is synonymous with ... other Biblical language/terms such as : praying in the spirit ( spirit = holy Ghost ) or this is same as saying praying in the Holy Ghost ( see point 3 above ).

For example, the Jude ( God ) says: " But you , beloved, building up ( see point 5 above = edifies ) yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, " Jude v2 20. Praying in the Holy Ghost ... = to pray in tongues. Jude is telling us HOW TO BUILD UP OURSELVES = pray in tongues ! So this is obviously important to God ... ans should be for us !

The is a lot more to teach ... be seen. if you want to see it !

Thank you, I can take it from here.

OK. A logical response .. is pray ... Dear God, protect me from false doctrines ... I cover myself in the Blood of Jesus ... however ... if tongues are for today ... you want me to have this gift ... I want what you want for me ... I open myself to your will in this matter ... asking you give me undertanding about this wonderful gift . Please rid me of all false doctrine and unbelief ... In Jesus name I pray. amen and amen!

Well, logic has not always been my strong suite.

My studies have been me to different view of "languages" than yours but I was curious on your view so I appreciate your sharing.

I hope what I said ... is NOT my view ... but what God ( scripture ) says ... is the purpose .. who can receive ... how to RECEIVE ... etc.

Do you speak in tongues. I gave my testimony in earlier thread ... did you see it ?

Yes, on every point of scripture people will state it is not their view it is scripture.
God Bless.

INTERESTING response.

So you don't speak in tongues ... which Acts 2 describes as the ONLY proof the 3000 Jews COULD HAVE SEEN ... that the Joel promise ... Spirit poured out ( upon ) all flesh had happened ! Which is same proof seen in Acts 10 and Acts 19. It is the same today. TOO BAD you've been convinced its not for you ... and yet the Bible ... GOD instructs you how to get and USE the gift of tongues. If that's not the case ... why did God have Paul write 1st Cor. 14 ... write to the Corinthians AND YOU ... and other verses in Bible ... WRITE THOSE INSTRUCTIONS TO YOU ???

The challenge is before you ... humble yourself ... ask God for the BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT ... then the gift of tongues will be given to you and PROVE you really have had the Pentecost = Baptism of Holy Spirit experience. And then you can use the GIFT for your benefit and for those you do not know what to pray for = ROMANS 8: 26 - 27

I have no doubt ... you've be BORN OF THE SPIRIT ... but there is a difference .. being BAPTIZED with the Holy Spirit. Ask God in sincere prayer ... if this is the case. Then wait for Him to prove or deny ! He loves you.

Why would GOD give SOME Christians the gift of talking IN TONGUES to HIM = 1st Cor 14.2 ... and not the same UNIQUE way for other Christians ? That doesn't make sense. Mark 16; 17 -18 Jesus said ALL the 5 gifts would MANIFEST in ALL Believers lives. I've seen everything ... except a snake bite me.

Arrivederci !

Baptism of the Holy Spirit? What does that mean? That the baptism is of the Holy Spirit like Salvation is of the Jews? The baptism by emersion is of your soul. Your soul is Baptized? Because a member of the godhead doesn't need to be baptized. Oh wait, Jesus is a member of the Godhead. He didn't need to be baptized.

Or maybe it's your body's baptism by the Holy Spirit. Did you REALLY go down in the water? I'm not merely being sarcastic, I was on swim team all 12 years in school and passed lifeguard, so I know all about emersion under the water! But swim team is different form church, I mean it's not spiritual baptism.

That one is ODD. I've sat in years (meaning more than one year each) of foreign language class, and I don't "speak in tongues". I can make myself understood, but that's because I listen, read, speak, and converse with others. The best definition I've ever heard of spiritual glossolalia is that the person spoke in one language (his native language) and the listeners heard in their native languages because of spiritual agency.