The Israelis set for new Jewish temple on Al-Aqsa site

II Thessalonians 2: 4 could imply a physical temple needs to be in place at the time of Christ's return, but this verse could be viewed from a multitude of perspectives:

4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

The conservative Biblical scholar Henry Halley states, "In our own day, after 2000 years of church history, there is still wide difference of opinion as to the identity of the "man of lawlessness" and the form the apostasy will take."

Again, as much as I enjoy discussing and theorizing about prophecy, there are a lot of missing pieces, and God has not clearly revealed how all the details are going to unfold once we enter that tribulation/Second Coming phase of His plan. I don't think it's important for us to know that at this time. God will make everything clear as the need arises.

How can we know for certain that Paul's reference to "...he sets himself up in God’s temple..." requires another physical Jewish temple to be in place when Jesus returns? That is a theological stretch at best to use this short reference from Paul as concrete proof that God needs another temple to be established in Jerusalem for this scripture to be fulfilled.

For example, Paul also references the word temple related to our bodies being temples of the Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 6:19

New International Version


19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

God's temple is a place where He dwells whether it was the Holy of Holies in the original two temples of the Old Covenant or our lives as His Children. The temple and all of the rituals and worship that took place there foreshadowed Jesus and the New Covenant.

As Christians, we don't have to travel to a physical temple to be in God's presence. Through Jesus, we have access to the Holy of Holies always.

I think it could be close at hand. Because...

of the war in Ukraine involving Russia. And if Russia decides to withdraw and bring its army back to Russia, then that could be the time when Ezekiel 38:3-4 takes place... of God metaphorically putting hooks in the Jaws of Gog, drawing him back into conflict into a muslim aggression against Israel, that escalates, into the Gog/Magog event with Russia becoming involved.

As a result of that event, the muslim presence on the temple mount will be removed as Islam, crushed by God defending the Jews, and not the muslim nations victorious as Islam teaches. With the muslim presence gone, that will pave the way for the temple to be built.

But I think because the Jews will want to get the animal sacrifices started again as soon as possible, that the temple will be downsized - as an interim measure until materials can be prepared for an expanded grand version that would take many years.

There are 7 years following the Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 39:1-16. Then a second event is prophesied in Ezekiel 39:17-20 which is the Armageddon event, the text matching Revelation 19:17-18.

Therefore, those 7 years are the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. The 7 years are 2520 days.

So subtracting the 2300 days of Daniel 8, 2520-2300, the animal sacrifices will begin again - around 220 days following Gog/Magog. 7 months about, to quickly erect a temporary temple sanctuary building, the size maybe based on the tent tabernacle declared for the Exodus out of Egypt, and a brazen altar.

I think the theological stretch is that the temple of 2Thessalonians2:3-4 is a metaphorical temple.

The act of the Antichrist, reveals himself as the man of sin, son of perdition, and not the messiah as the Jews will first to have thought. It will also end the world saying peace and safety of 1Thessalonians5, of them thinking they are in the beginnings of the messianic age - with the Antichrist as the messiah. But it will turn out to be a false messianic age.

The act will be the transgression of desolation of Daniel 8:12-13. Which involves the daily sacrifice and it being taken away, another reason that it has to be a physical temple.

The audacious act of the Antichrist sitting in the temple, claiming to have achieved God-hood will result in him being killed, assassinated, in Ezekiel 28:1-10. To be brought back to life in Isaiah 14:16-20, to become the beast (king) of Revelation 13 and Revelation 17:10-11.

I like that you you stated these things just like this.

I want to focus in on your first sentence here, "I agree that a temple will be built, and not long after tainted". This is my point, how can this temple be tainted when it's not God's temple? Or can it? When we look back at the other temples and even the tent tabernacle in the wilderness, God ordered them to build then. He was very specific about it too. Now that the event that ALL that foreshadowed has come to pass exactly as He said it would every step of the way, stepped into His creation to make the ONLY way to reconcile us back to Himself as we were created to be literally saying the ultimate sacrifice, once for all, the lamb provided by God Abraham told Isaac about, He declared it was finished. Then from there the disciples through His Spirit proclaimed the victory and coming judgement. The gospel was established and the full revaluation was written, collected, and completed.

Paul told us if anyone comes with something other than these things, if WE come back with a different gospel then let them be damned to hell. Most Christians I know agree with this so when Joseph Smith, Mohammed, or Ron Hubbard come with some new revelation, we know it's false. So my point is that if God did not already command us directly to build His temple in scripture, how could any temple built be His in truth? Jumping off from that, how could a temple built by man's will be a holy temple that could even be desecrated?

Can you help me to understand how this can make sense?

The idea to build a temple originated with David to build God a house, a place to worship God. But because David was a man of war, God passed the privilege of building the temple to David's son, Solomon.

Solomon, however, allowed idol worship to become widespread in Israel, so that ultimately lead to the Assyrian captivity, followed by the Babylonian captivity which the temple was destroyed.

In Daniel 9, the prophecies of the return of the Jews to Jerusalem from the Babylonian captivity, and the rebuilding of the walls and city. And the coming of the messiah and him being cutoff. And the future coming of the prince who shall come, who will confirm the covenant (the Mt. Sinai covenant) for 7 years (a cycle established by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13) as the Jews will embrace him as their messiah (for a while), the Antichrist.

In the middle of the seven years, the abomination of desolation (a statue image) will take place.

Your point is how can the desolation be of the temple of God - if He does not direct it to be built?

The answer is that the Jews, the current generation in Israel today, will desire to build the temple - with their intent being to worship God in the manner that had been done under the Mt. Sinai covenant with they still hold to.

btw, the time of the end abomination of desolation is associated with the stoppage of the daily sacrifice as well, in Daniel 12:11. Since that is a prophecy of the time of the end, it means that animal sacrifices will have to resume again - which can only take place within the inner court of the temple. So a temple must be built, which include a sanctuary building featuring the holy room, and the Holy of Holies room, and in the inner courtyard a brazen altar.

1. transgression of desolation (Daniel 8:12-13) - the act by the Antichrist, 2Thessalonians2:3-4
2. then the Antichrist killed for his act - Ezekiel 28:1-10
3. then the revealed man of sin's soul cast out of hell, returning to life, Isaiah 14:16-20. Becoming the beast (king)
4. then the false prophet has a statue image made of him in Revelation 13, and places it on the temple mount.
5. the statue image being the abomination of desolation. The great tribulation will begin at that point.

imo, everyone should state what translation they are using.... for example, KJV, NIV... etc.

Because that can affect a person's views on a wide range of topics.

I use the KJV.

#1 Thank you so much for the simple conversation. I do desire to actually talk about these things without being ugly towards each other and for some reason that seems almost impossible to do here for some reason, so thank you for that.

1 Chronicles 22:9&10
9 Behold, a son shall be born to you who shall be a man of rest. I will give him rest from all his surrounding enemies. For his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days. 10 He shall build a house for my name. He shall be my son, and I will be his father, and I will establish his royal throne in Israel forever.’

This was where God commanded Solomon was to build the 1st temple.

Ezra 1:1-2
1 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom and also put it in writing:
2 “Thus says Cyrus king of Persia: The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
3 Whoever is among you of all his people, may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and rebuild the house of the Lord, the God of Israel—he is the God who is in Jerusalem.

This is were is tells how God ordered the 2nd temple built. This is what I'm saying has not happen for there to be a way a 3rd temple could even possibly be Gods temple. If God doesn't will it to be, then it wouldn't be "His" even if they did build it.

No matter how much they "will desire to build the temple" nor what they intend, "with their intent being to worship God", the temple will not be "Gods holy house". To be honest I believe it would be a slap in His face for men to go backwards and built the "shadow of things to come" when the way has been made and it is finished as our King so boldly puts it.

One last thing, the animal sacrifices mean nothing now, the ultimate sacrifice has been made once for all. How would reinstituting these practices that were created to point to Jesus be anything but an insult to God? The parable of the vineyard owner paints the picture. After they killed the son and then faced judgement being replaced by new people did the old people years later establish their old foothold in the land and then get a second chance? Nope that whole established system was removed and made new. Just like the fig tree. Understand the Jews were not ever cut off, still are called to our God, but that "age" or mosaic system was removed from the earth and is over. Jesus is the only way and is King NOW on His throne at the right hand of the Father and as 1 Cor 15:25 says, "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet "

Jimbone, you are using some indirect logic to reason that the stoppage of the daily sacrifice and the transgression of desolation in Daniel 8:12-13 will not take place at the time of the end... if I understand you correctly.

The Jews will be building a temple for the worship of no other god but the One True God of Israel. The desolation means that the worship the Jews will be doing associated with that temple - will be stopped.

The Jews who will be building the temple will not be Christians at that time. Yet, God's plan is to bring Israel to the plan of Salvation in Christ. That will not happen until Revelation 12:10, after their perceived messiah betrays them.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

You might be interested in a thread I just started called - "a condensed overview of Revelation, Chapters 6-19. There are a multitude of events to take place that are not the will of God in those chapters. So just because God does direct the Jews to build a temple, that does not mean it will not happen. And it doesn't mean that the stoppage of their worship of God in that temple will not happen. It will happen - so we need to look at it as something that is going to happen - albeit not everything will be in the will of God.

1. Refresh my memory about the scriptural basis of believing there will be a third temple.
2. Could the "third temple" be Paul's description of the church as a temple with Jesus Christ the chief Cornerstone?

Paul was speaking in metaphorical terms referring to the bodies of Christians. Collectively, the church metaphorically could be considered the temple of God, with Jesus the chief Cornerstone.

The scriptural basis for a third physical temple are the end times prophecies regarding the animal sacrifices begun again (by Jews - Judaism), only to be stopped in the middle of the 7-year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 by the Antichrist. Followed by the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:12-13 and 2Thessalonians2:3-4. And after that, the abomination of desolation.

The stopping of the daily sacrifice and abomination of desolation setup (on the temple mount) is in Daniel 12:11-12. The abomination of desolation will be a statue image made of the beast king (the final stage of the Antichrist) found in Revelation 13:14-15.

The evolution of that person is...

First as the little horn person of Daniel 7 and Daniel 8,

Then he becomes the prince who shall come, Daniel 9:26, following the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39,

Then he is perceived by the Jews as their long-awaited messiah, King of Israel. He is anointed the King of Israel, coming in his own name, becoming the Antichrist,

Then after confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant, acting in that role, for the 7 year cycle required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 begins.

Then three years, thereabouts, go by and he commits the transgression of desolation act, of 2Thessalonians2:4, revealing himself as the man of sin - and not the messiah, as the Jews will have first mistakenly thought. It ends his time in the role of being the Antichrist phony King of Israel.

Then God has him killed for his claim of having achieved God-hood, Ezekiel 28:1-10.

Then God in disdain for him, casts his soul out of hell, back into his lifeless body, Isaiah 14:16-20. At which time, he becomes the beast person of Revelation 13, continues in that role as the beast king until his destruction of being cast alive into the lake of fire, in Revelation 19:20.

I to be fair I guess I haven't really broken down what I believe so I will give a very summed up version.

"So just because God does direct the Jews to build a temple, that does not mean it will not happen. And it doesn't mean that the stoppage of their worship of God in that temple will not happen".
I never said it would mean ANY of those thing. I am only saying it will be their temple if they build it, not Gods. That means that it can not be desecrated. I am saying the everything in Mat 24 that Jesus said would ALL take place in that generation, did happen exactly as He said it would. This whole conversation (in Mat 24 not our conversation) is about the end of the "AGE" not the end of the world. With what you're trying to convince me of right now, this whole "tribulation in the future to us" view, would mean Jesus is not the ONLY way. Is that what you believe? That there is another way to be reconciled to God outside of the ONLY way, through Him. Because if the Jews have an avenue to reconciliation outside of Jesus then that makes Jesus a liar for the second time after telling the disciples that all these things would happen before that generation was over.

I am going to honestly build my whole case with scripture because I appreciate the tone of this conversation so much and I want to share these things with anyone sincere, as well as hearing your side out. I want to grow and I want the truth not to win an argument. But this story is amazing, from Isaiah and Malachi that say the Messiah is bringing salvation and judgement against the covenant breakers to Jesus saying things like "this generation will not pass away before all these things come to pass", you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes, or how about on the way to the cross when He tells the women "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed!".

Judgement fell on the covenant breakers, the very ones that told Jesus our Lord and God to His face "we have no king but Caesar". The Roman army came and destroyed them and tore down the temple brick off of brick EXACTLY as Jesus said it would. Everything in scripture lines up SO much better with this understanding in my opinion. This means Jesus is King right now, He is seated at the right hand of the Father today and must reign until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet.

When I see all these things after having been taught pre-trib rapture theology my whole life it truly blows my mind that no matter how much you have to bring to the text, all the maps, timelines, charts, and preconceptions that you have to add to His word to get to this view truly makes me wonder why others can't see this. Just like the point I'm making about the "3rd temple". Gods pattern was that He calls His people directly to build His house, even the tent tabernacle in the wilderness was very exact in His instructions. Nowhere is it modeled that the Jews desire can make what they build "God's Holy Temple". Gods temple does not exist on earth today, of course we all agree this, but now that the cannon of scripture has long been closed and God NEVER commanded His Holy Temple be rebuilt in His word to us, then it follows logically that any temple built would be an impostor temple any therefore could not be desolated due to the FACT it was never ever Holy, just a temple built by mans will.

I read everything you wrote and feel like I'm following you, but honestly do not see anything that contradicts or "debunks" what I'm saying here. Without God directly commanding to a person to rebuild His house, then it cannot be His temple going by the pattern He used in the past. If He does command this be done then it contradicts His revelations to man being complete right? Most people I've shared this with almost just ignore these points with a cult like non-answer like "God can do anything". God is not a God of confusion and as Christians we are called to reason these things out in scripture to see if they're true. I will have a much more scripture based outline of why I've come to believe what I do now to help clear up anything misunderstood.

To be a ungodly sacrifices those heifers must be 2 years 1 day old at the time of sacrifice . While not growing any off coloured hair or coming up with some kind of blemish. Cattle can get some ugly parasites.

Except we will rule with a rod of iron.....it appears some will not listen even with Jesus ruling.

We as Christians are not told to build a physical temple.

However, the Jews in their bible have a prophecy about a grand temple, one that has never been built. The vision and description of it were presented to Ezekiel. And in Ezekiel 40:4 that vision was to be delivered to the house of Israel, according to God.

4 And the man said unto me, Son of man, behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thine heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for to the intent that I might shew them unto thee art thou brought hither: declare all that thou seest to the house of Israel.

Since that temple was never built, and in it were to be animal sacrifices, the Jews, imo, are desiring that their next temple, when finished ,will fit the temple described in Ezekiel 40-47.

However. a temple of that magnitude would take many years to complete. So initially, their first structure to get the animal sacrifices going as quickly as possible, would be a minimum-size structure - called the temple of God - because the temple in Ezekiel 40-47 is coming from God. The first structure would take a few months to build if it were sized the same as the tent tabernacle in the Exodus.

There is a lot of debate surrounding the Ezekiel 40-47 temple. And animal sacrifices? Which, I don't want to get into.

The point I am making is that the Jews do have a basis to build another temple that will be the temple of God, in pursuit of the Ezekiel 40-47 temple.

Yes, a staff of comfort and guidance ideally, but that staff can turn into a rod of iron as needed, too!

Thanks JohnB for your comment. Many people claim that the Bible talks about rebuilding an actual physical temple building. However, I encourage you to consider what the Bible says about its own scripture. We read: "Give ear, O my people, to my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.I will open my mouth in a parable". Here the Bible makes the claim that it is written in parable form. We even read in Mark 4:34: "But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples." In other words, Jesus explains the parable that is scripture to his disciples when he is alone with them, letting them know what the surface text really means once the parable is interpreted. When Moses struck the rock in Exodus and water came forth for the thirsty people to drink, it was not just a surface story of a person hitting a rock. The rock was a picture of Jesus. When he was struck on the cross, he was able to then provide living water to those who were thirsty for salvation. Yet the story in Exodus does not prepare the reader by saying, 'now this ordinary earthly story really has a parable meaning'. Similarly, when we read that a temple will be built we must be careful to understand what it really means. Let's read in Micah 4 about the future temple:

"But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."

The house of the Lord is said to be the true believers, Christians as it were, and not a temple building like we might expect: "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." Similarly, reference to the law going forth out of Zion and the word from Jerusalem means that true believers anywhere on earth will have the gospel to share, the word of God. The true believers are Zion, they are Jerusalem. These verses are not referring to Jerusalam as a physical city on a map on Googlemaps.

Other verses which casually taken or which read in a surface way might seem to be referring to a future temple, are most likely just referring to Christ as the temple, and believers as a part of that, and not to a physical architect's building that required a blueprint. When Daniel 9 talks about sacrifice and oblation ceasing, for example, this is a way of saying that Christ's atoning sacrifice is not saving those who follow a different gospel, and do not follow Christ. Similarly, when Ezekiel talks about all the dimensions of a temple, it is a way of showing how we as true believers should be built if we are truly in Christ, with each building part describing (in parable fashion) how the whole body of Christ should fit together and be. The temple in that book is also called a house and a building. Palm trees are used in places, meaning there is righteousness there. When we read that there are seven steps going up it means that God did all the work of getting us to ascend up to him. When we read that there are tables of sacrifice, it means that Jesus paid the price for us to be a part of the building, and so forth. See how the Bible can be interpreted as a parable to get at the real meaning.

I dont think present day Born Again Christians will see the Building of the third Temple. I think that Temple gets built during the Tribulation.

The temple 2000+ years ago got its vail torn. The Holy of Holies was open to the people . Does anyone posting here think/believe the presence of God would be in a temple built by man?

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

The rapture may happen "pre-trib" (pre-70th week) or it may not.

There is a reason that it may not. (And why I created a rapture view that I call the "anytime rapture view").

In 1Thessalonians5, the continuation of 1Thessalonians4:15-19 (the base verses for the rapture/resurrection event) we are told the world will be saying "peace and safety" right before the day of the Lord suddenly begins - during which God's wrath will be poured out.

1Theassalionians5: 9-11 repeats the rapture/resurrection, saying that we are not appointed to wrath but Salvation, and that whether asleep or wake we will be with the Lord.

------------------------------------

So the rapture/resurrection has to be anytime before the day of the Lord begins. I borrowed the "anytime" word found in Luke 21:34-36, also a rapture/resurrection passage about avoid the great tribulation - for the title of my rapture view, "anytime rapture view"

...to be continued in my next post.