Navigating church culture

Actually Christ presented the widow's mite as His standard, and she gave 100%.

All we have to do is go to the Old Testament to see that tithing was an integral part of the Law of Moses, and involved both the temple, the Levitical priesthood, the agriculture, and the animal husbandry of the Israelites. It did not involve money as such. But Paul presents the meaning of Christian giving as "liberality", and calls it a spiritual grace. He had much to say about it, and why Christian giving should be focused on poorer and needy Christians. At the same time he made it clear that missionaries, evangelists, preachers, and teachers should be supported by Christians. There was little or no discussion about buildings (unlike the temple at Jerusalem). Of course, once Christians began to meet in building their upkeep would be necessary.

Seriously? That was not at all the spirit in which he wrote what he did.

There is no directive for tithing in the New Testament. People should and do give from their hearts and not because they are forced to
pay for all the accoutrements of the church. Hillsong is made out of money anyway.

You wrote a very accusatory and judgmental post to someone who was asking honest questions. Were you just in a bad mood?

Nah. That was not about tithing. That was about the heart motives. Read it again.

ps: no one is saying do not give but you cannot give 100% or you will be depending on other people all your life which is not scriptural.
We should manage what God has given to us. Peter indicated in the story about Ananias and Sapphira, that the money they received from the sale of their land was theirs to do with as they wished. They died because of their lies and not because they did not give 100%

Each Church group has a different culture within it. Hillsong had an odd one for sure. No argument from me on that one.
Some large churches really don't create an atmosphere that encourages real friendships to form...some do. What you are looking for is a small group Bible study within a large church....once known as Sunday School. It's in these classes that friendships are formed. Because during the course of discussions over scriptures and life situations by the entire group and the various prayer requests....and getting together off site for activities and projects.....you develop true friendships. It takes time to form real friends. And at times it feels like being a wheat stalk in a tare field.

I do remember walking into a church I was visiting as a young single man and watching the women look at me as if I was a mouse that had wondered into the cat's pen. Some (not all) singles groups (college and career) are meat markets. Older singles groups tend to not be so much. But things change....I could be wrong.
I'm drawing a blank on the denomination in the UK that was my favorite....none are all that horrible. Keep trying various church groups until you find one you like. One that has small groups.

Giving?
Up to you. Use discretion. Automatic pew warmers for your backside cost money to operate and maintain but do you really want a church that spends that kind of money on congregants comfort? Or the live concert complete with light show?

Just saying....use your head. I think you will be just fine.

Of course it was not about tithing. And that is exactly what I said. So don't be combative just for the sake of taking a dig. When you see what happened in the church at Jerusalem after Pentecost, then you also see that principle applied. And dragging Ananias and Sapphira into this is totally irrelevant.

If you had understood my post, it actually was in response to the following in particular:

And I said this:

It's too bad you say Ananias and Sapphira as irrelevant because their actions and what Peter stated are absolutely relevant. It is also too bad that my pointing that out is viewed by you as some kind of personal 'dig'. That story completely does away with church claims that teach tithing is a must.

Hey

Thanks for your reply.

I did indeed join a small group in Hillsong church. Nice people, don't get me wrong. But when I left I was blanked by most of them, almost in a similar way that you hear of ex-members of scientology being blanked by their former 'friends'.
Of course, it felt really weird and was upsetting, but it actually reinforced my intuition that it's all a little fake.

Tithing:
Could you possibly point out for me where tithing is applicable to Christians under the new covenant?

To answer your question, "Why do you disagree with tithing for modern-day Christians?":

------------------------

Tithing, as described under Mosaic law, comprises three parts:

1. a tenth of herbs, animals, grain, etc (Leviticus 27:32)
2. tithing being an obligation (2 Chronicles 31:5)
3. it applies to the Israelites, who tithe to the Levitical priesthood (Numbers 18:26)

Offerings on the other hand are described as:

1. the Bible sets no defined amount, but asks for us to give according to our heart (2 Corinthians 9:7)
2. a gift freely given, i.e. choice not obligation (2 Corinthians 9:7)
3. it applies to everybody that follows God (Romans 12:1)

Therefore, in the context of the congregation giving money to Church, tithing is the incorrect term to use since, even if they may decide to give a tenth of their income, there is no obligation to give and nor are they Israelites.
If a member of the congregation decides to give a tenth of their income, that’s their offering, which just so happens to equate to a tenth.

Furthermore, tithing is defined under Mosaic law, which does not apply to Christians;

“Christians are not under the law” – Romans 6:14
“Christians have been delivered from the law” – Romans 7:1-6
“Christians are dead to the law” – Galatians 2:19
“The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from” – Galatians 3:1

In fact, the law under which tithing was described, should be actively avoided by Christians because:

1. The law adds nothing to faith

“The law frustrates grace” – Galatians 2:21
“The law has nothing to do with faith” – Galatians 3:11-12
“The law has no glory at all in comparison to the new covenant” – 2 Corinthians 3:10
“The law justifies nobody” – Galatians 2:16

2. The law is a curse, and cursed are those who practice some parts of the law (e.g. tithing) and fail to practice the rest of the law too

“The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly” – Galatians 3:10
“The law brings wrath upon those who follow it” – Romans 4:15
“The purpose of the law was to increase sin” – Romans 5:20
“To go back to the law after embracing faith is stupid” – Galatians 3:1

The Mosaic law, under which tithing is defined, therefore does not apply to Christians, frustrates the grace bestowed upon us through Christ and interferes with a Christian’s relationship with God, and is a curse.

I think the problem with hillsong is they have made a 'prosperity gospel' and turned CCM into a money making machine, but it doesnt go into saving souls it goes into the deep pockets and offshore accounts of the very few.

Many churches now have to pay royalties to hillsong to use their music, though the profits dont go to the musicians - am not too sure where they go. I have also never been to a church that the congregation just spontaneously sing or get to choose what songs to sing. Its all preprogrammed by someone else.Am not a musician myself so Im not sure how different they really are from the secular music industry but they do publish and make albums

although having said that you cant ignore that there has been some great songs come out of hillsong. Thougn for the most part Im not actually fan of that style of christian rock music. I think while lyrics can be mesningful the music is often no different from rock in that it doesnt really have much melody or harmony. There are surely other instruments you can play for music not just amp guitars and a drum kit.

I think you should listen. Something about us 'blokes' when we are young is if you are not attracted to a young woman, you can be blind to the fact that she is attracted to you and has feelings for you. You've got this good female friend you hang out with. You tell her you are just friends. She tells you that. But in the back of her mind, she may have you in mind as a possibility. Or she may tell herself she doesn't, but her feelings don't agree with that.

When I was single, I had a female friend who was clear that we were 'just friends.' She was several years older than I was, and also thought the Lord wanted her to marry someone else. So we were just friends. But I know there were feelings. She was a very, very pretty woman, too. So of course I had some attraction and feelings. I knew intellectually things wouldn't work with her more dominant dynamic toward me, thinking of me as a little brother. But I could pick up on her feelings for me, certainly at times when she acted a bit strange about it, like when I sent her a card asking me to come to my wedding, and just the way she talked and her body language. There was more too it than that.

I also pranked a young woman at work, then bought her a cake as a peace offering. I was pretty naive not to pick up on clues that she liked me, including an air kiss kind of hug when we were alone (it's a thing in that country.) It wasn't until I got off the phone when she asked me to meet her mother and talked to a friend that it dawned on me. I actually would have found her attractive if it weren't for the short hair. She was Roman Catholic. I wasn't. People tended to marry in the religion, so she wasn't in my consideration set-- the hair and the religion. Hair... okay... so I don't say I was really 'deep' about this stuff as a young man... and that was a really short hair-cut.

I have a friend who had a daughter, then quite a few years later my son had a daughter. I lived overseas, and later these two young people were 'hanging out' as friends. She probably had three or four years on him. I got to talking to my old friend about my nephew. He said something about thinking about him as a potential son-in-law (concerned that he didn't show up on time when he said, and he didn't like that.) I told him I heard that they were just friends. He told me any young man who spent time with his daughter he considered a potential suitor. I think he's right on that, from the perspective of a father certainly.

My wife and I were 'just friends' for a while. That's what I said going in and I had my reasons, but we liked each other and started spending time with each other constantly, so we talked that through. Before that happened to me, I had a conversation with a friend from college who told me about this wonderful girl he was friends with, who was a virgin, a really sweet girl, a Christian. They'd talk for hours. But he didn't know if they were just friends or what. He thought she was amazing, but he didn't know if she liked him back. In his unrepentant days of his youth, he'd apparently been a bit of a player and fornicator, too. But he couldn't figure her out, and probably felt she was too good for him. Later, I came back to the US, and they were married.

I also felt kind of bad. There was a pretty Chinese girl in my cell group who I heard had a health issue. I got her number and called her and talked to her about it. I might have prayed for her or offered to. I called her like I was a friend. But actually, I was interested in her as a potential date/spouse, whatever. I was single. I think it was soon after that that I met the woman I would marry. So then when I start hanging around with her as 'just friends' all the time and took my future wife to my small group, she was getting a kind of jealous eye from the Chinese girl. There was this other guy who started coming to the cell group who rather quickly proposed to the Chinese girl. She accepted, and rather quickly stopped looking at my wife that way. They married, eventually moved abroad, had kids, etc. They were still together the last I heard several months back.

I feel kind of bad for leading her on. I didn't have to call her about that. It was a tiny thing, but that little thing probably piqued her interest in me, and might have caused her a little stress in deciding to marry her husband.

So this don't hang out with girls as friends along... think of that more about not breaking the girl's heart, draining her emotional energy, keeping her from considering other males who actually might consider her to be a partner. If you show interest, she might develop an 'emotional attachment.' I've never read a Jane Austen book and I only read what was assigned in school for Charles Dickens, but I notice in the movies based on these books, back in the days, the men were concerned that they not encourage girls to develop 'attachments' to them if they weren't wanting to court them. I appreciate the ethics of that. Other people's feelings are important.

If you are on the market to marry and she is, and you are hanging out, and you aren't related or whatever... then you could be distracting her from someone who might be interested in marriage, so you have to be careful about that.

Now when you are hanging out alone with the girl you like, _that_ is when the sex temptation is the bigger issue. I'm not saying the 'just friends' situations can't be that way.

Thanks for your post.

Just a reminder that it's 2023 and not 1953.
A guy and lady can socialise without the urge to tear each other's clothes off.

My guess is young folks in 2023 might be a little more likely to have sex if they are alone together than back in 1953.

While I would be inclined to agree, statistics relating to the average age of the mother at birth of first child don't indicate this:

"In the USA, the average age at which women bore their first child advanced from 21.4 years old in 1970 to 26.9 in 2018".

source: Advanced maternal age - Wikipedia

I was talking about young ___unmarried__ people. But I suspect birth control pills became available to singles in the 1960's, and the SCOTUS forced states to keep abortion legal during the interim time period, which are a big confounding variable for your comparison.