In the days of those kings

I'll take that pretty red ball with the tilted cross as a maybe.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of Man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. (Dan 7:13,14)
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. (Mt 26: 64)
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:30)
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

Who are...and they which pierced Him?

The Roman soldiers, the unbelieving Jewish nation, and all the enemies of Christ. They were all complicit in the crucifixion of Christ. Evidently they all will see Him at His Second Coming.

"The clouds of Heaven" are mentioned again and again. These are the "clouds" of saints and angels surrounding Christ at His Second Coming. From a distance, they will give the appearance of clouds.

Perhaps they did in the first century when the temple was destroyed.

The reference is clearly to the Second Coming of Christ, so there is no need to bring up the first century nor the first coming.

The first coming was His birth.

The kingdom of God did begin when Daniel says. During the Roman Empire.

The kingdom of God is already a reality to which people are delivered to from the kingdom of darkness. When Jesus returns the Kingdom will be visible on earth as well

You're being very vague. All I can say is I do believe there will be a reaping of the righteous (the rapture) before the end of the tribulation. The Lord will return at the end of the tribulation to set up His kingdom. Two separate events. It sounds like you believe both of these events will be at the same time, but honestly you're not being clear about this so I don't know.

When the reaping of the earth happens at Rev 14:15 it will be another rapture/ resurrection just as happens for the church but the Lord does not return to earth till the end of the tribulation. The Lord's coming at the end of the tribulation is to determine who enters his kingdom in the flesh of the survivors.

I am saying this Blessed Day, also the Day of the Lord begins, is the timing of the beginning of the 1000 year reign of Christ at Pentecost.

If you believe the Lord Jesus was perfect and sinless and what the Father knows, the son knows also. From post #8 I said from the time of Trumpets to Pentecost is exactly 1335 days but only in certain years. That is perfection of Daniel 12:12.

I'm not following this thread anymore. I clicked it out of curiosity but it has no real interest for me.

“But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, ( 67-70 ad ) standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judæa flee to the mountains:

….For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.


And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.


But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:9, 11-14, 19-20, 23-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬


It’s never really been a mystery but we won’t heed his word . He never said we wouldn’t go through tribulation he said we surely would in this world but he will deliver us out of it into the kingdom

“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

just like Jesus warned they would be persecuted for thier belief and witness of him revelation was partly written to prepare them for what was happening and was also about to happen and what would continue until the end when Christ returns with salvstion all the tribulation for the saints in revelation was already happening they were persecuted and killed from early in acts and remember rome slaughtered Christian’s by the masses and Jews when they besieged Jerusalem in ad 70 if you look at the epistles we can see it was happen in at the time they wrote them



“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

notice the martyrs ?

“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭6:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There has to be a church on earth for the nature to be killed during the time of tribulation from 67 ad to the end when it’s fulfilled during this Period

“And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭13:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s always been puzzling to me where the pre tribulation raptire doctrine came from given what Jesus and the apostles said in the Bible I’ve never read a single scripture that suggests Jesus was wrong or his apostles were wrong bout the matter

Hi Pilgrimshope, I am as much a pre-mill person as you are a 70 AD person

Physically?
Spiritually, it already happened!

I see we who are believers are reserved for the physical kingdom which is to come but we are not living in the Lord's kingdom but Satan's world for the time being. Having the Spirit living within us helps us to cope against the wiles of the devil

Paul, really did answer this for us, didn't he?

i see partially now, but when the Perfect Comes, i will see Completeness!

yeah alot of people are I’ve always been curious why when scripture doesn’t make it a mystery but the tribulation is just another subject within the church many versions and competing “ interpretations “ so it’s not a surprise we have differences of opinion on subjects, I don’t think it should be a reason to argue and accuse either

a discussion is a good thing it’s meant to present different ideas about so etching and come to a conclusion but there’s always going to be things we do t see the same at the same time

when I was in my early twenties I believed in a pre tribulation rapture also but I hadn’t read what the Bible says about it yet just heard about things from people and read crumbs myself if we do t already understand before we read things in the Bible we learn from those things , if we already know and those things dont make a dent we’re spinning our wheels so eventually I eas persuaded to change he my belief given I could never come to the reasoning I was right and the Bible was wrong

You ever consider that Vespasian was the 10th emperor of Rome. And He was Ceasar during the 70 ad siege of jerusalem.