is Luke 21:28 referring to the rapture or Jesus' second coming
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Hi there, Radius. 
Would you kindly provide scripture that proves this?
Would you kindly provide scripture that proves this?
The story or Ruth, Boaz and Naomi, Enoch, Noah escaping on the ark before God's judgment, the angels rescuing Lot and his family out before God's judgment, Rehab and the spies, Jewish wedding customs etc.
So the church just flies up in the air before the battle? That doesn’t make sense; does it? Are we not supposed to run the race and wait for the true King of kings to arrive? Are we not to endure until the end? Revelation 3:12 tells us:
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Selah
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Selah
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(Luke 21:27-28) "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. {28} And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."
Both the rapture and the second coming will happen on the same day.. So yeah the scripture that talks of the second coming also talks about the rapture.. And incidentally the first resurrection of the Saints..
Both the rapture and the second coming will happen on the same day.. So yeah the scripture that talks of the second coming also talks about the rapture.. And incidentally the first resurrection of the Saints..
Consider:
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (KJV)
Selah
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (KJV)
Selah
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^ Paul says that "the day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth pang [singular]" that comes upon a woman with child; Jesus spoke of that very thing in Matthew 24:4 / Mark 13:5 ("the beginning of birth pangs [plural]"), when He said, "[G5100 - tis] A CERTAIN ONE..." (beware of 'a certain one'... bringing deception);
"The beginning of birth pangs" are equivalent to the "SEALS" of Rev6 at the start of the 7-yr tribulation period;
so the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" commences at "SEAL #1" (aka the INITIAL "birth pang [singular]"; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5), i.e. the "whose coming" (2Th2:9a) of "the man of sin" when he does the "confirmation of the covenant" at the start of the 7 years ("for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]");
Paul, in 2Th2, is telling the Thessalonians not to be persuaded by anyone seeking to tell them "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]" (i.e. the Trib, supposedly having already commenced). It wasn't, and he explains WHY it cannot be so (and repeats the correct SEQUENCE 3x in that text, vv.3b-8a).
"The beginning of birth pangs" are equivalent to the "SEALS" of Rev6 at the start of the 7-yr tribulation period;
so the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" commences at "SEAL #1" (aka the INITIAL "birth pang [singular]"; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5), i.e. the "whose coming" (2Th2:9a) of "the man of sin" when he does the "confirmation of the covenant" at the start of the 7 years ("for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]");
Paul, in 2Th2, is telling the Thessalonians not to be persuaded by anyone seeking to tell them "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]" (i.e. the Trib, supposedly having already commenced). It wasn't, and he explains WHY it cannot be so (and repeats the correct SEQUENCE 3x in that text, vv.3b-8a).
As to the OP question,
"is Luke 21:28 referring to the rapture or Jesus' second coming"
Nowhere in Jesus' Olivet Discourse is Jesus covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," but rather of His Second Coming to the earth and that which immediately precedes and leads up to that point.
[for example, Matthew 24:29-31 ("great trumpet") corresponds with Isaiah 27:9,12-13 "GREAT" trumpet (see also Rom11:26-27 and Dan9:24), which is about the elect of Israel (the "still-living" ones at the end of the Trib yrs) who will be gathered "ONE BY ONE" (not "AS ONE," as WE will be), by angels "He SHALL SEND" to do so, and they will be gathered to one place upon the earth: "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM" per this Isaiah passage, and other related passages]
"is Luke 21:28 referring to the rapture or Jesus' second coming"
Nowhere in Jesus' Olivet Discourse is Jesus covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," but rather of His Second Coming to the earth and that which immediately precedes and leads up to that point.
[for example, Matthew 24:29-31 ("great trumpet") corresponds with Isaiah 27:9,12-13 "GREAT" trumpet (see also Rom11:26-27 and Dan9:24), which is about the elect of Israel (the "still-living" ones at the end of the Trib yrs) who will be gathered "ONE BY ONE" (not "AS ONE," as WE will be), by angels "He SHALL SEND" to do so, and they will be gathered to one place upon the earth: "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM" per this Isaiah passage, and other related passages]
Notice how certain and clear Paul‘s assertions are so that everyone can understand and not be deceived. The GREAT APOSTASY happens first, before Christ’s return. The man of sin who is the son of perdition (Satan) comes first. So how in the world can anyone read that passage from Paul and still think Christ can return at any moment when that man of sin (the Antichrist) has not been revealed yet? Selah
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^ @selahsays ,
Your first assertion, where you wrote, "...before Christ's return" is to miss Paul's argument/point, in this text.
The matter has to do with the faulty idea [being presented to the Thessalonians by others falsely purporting something, v.2], and that false claim is, "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]"... not that "Christ's return" had happened.
[Paul does not want them to be misled about the "false claim" purporting "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"... which is what we now term "the Tribulation Period"... as I spelled out in my previous post. It wasn't "present," and Paul explains WHY it cannot be so]
By making this first mis-step (as many tend to do), when reading this text, it thus is taking you further afield from what point Paul is actually conveying in this passage.
Your first assertion, where you wrote, "...before Christ's return" is to miss Paul's argument/point, in this text.
The matter has to do with the faulty idea [being presented to the Thessalonians by others falsely purporting something, v.2], and that false claim is, "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]"... not that "Christ's return" had happened.
[Paul does not want them to be misled about the "false claim" purporting "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"... which is what we now term "the Tribulation Period"... as I spelled out in my previous post. It wasn't "present," and Paul explains WHY it cannot be so]
By making this first mis-step (as many tend to do), when reading this text, it thus is taking you further afield from what point Paul is actually conveying in this passage.
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^ The text is not conveying:
--"Christ's return can't happen until ________ happens first"
Rather, it is conveying:
--"the day of the Lord [i.e. the TRIB] can't be present until [ONE THING HAPPENS] FIRST, *and* [distinctly / consequently] the man of sin be revealed..."
(he/the man of sin is "revealed" in SEAL #1 at the START of the 7-yr period [at this point, "the DOTL" will then INDEED "be present"]... not at its middle [2Th2:4b], nor at its end [2Th2:8b]).
[Paul repeats this SEQUENCE 3x in this context; which agrees with the SEQUENCE he'd already spelled out in his previous letter to the Thessalonians; and which agrees with the SEQUENCE in all other passages on this Subject, in Scripture]
--"Christ's return can't happen until ________ happens first"
Rather, it is conveying:
--"the day of the Lord [i.e. the TRIB] can't be present until [ONE THING HAPPENS] FIRST, *and* [distinctly / consequently] the man of sin be revealed..."
(he/the man of sin is "revealed" in SEAL #1 at the START of the 7-yr period [at this point, "the DOTL" will then INDEED "be present"]... not at its middle [2Th2:4b], nor at its end [2Th2:8b]).
[Paul repeats this SEQUENCE 3x in this context; which agrees with the SEQUENCE he'd already spelled out in his previous letter to the Thessalonians; and which agrees with the SEQUENCE in all other passages on this Subject, in Scripture]
One more thing...
... that I'd like to point out, if I may.
The oft-repeated phrase (though not a biblical one) "The GREAT APOSTASY" (post #32) is one found nowhere in Scripture, though it is stated and written so many times that people tend to believe that it is.
The word "great" is nowhere used in verse 3 with the phrase "he apostasia" [/ apostasis] ... (the "he" being the definite article "the," in the Greek). It is just "he apostasia [/apostasis]"... NO word "great" used here with this.
It is true that God shall "send to them strong delusion" during / within the Trib years, but that part is not being addressed where Paul is making the point that the "false claim" (v.2) that the day of the Lord "IS PRESENT" cannot be true because of [such-and-such]...
They are completely distinct matters, in other words (one being before the day of the Lord / Trib can "be present"; the other, once it IS present and unfold upon the earth ["strong delusion" will be sent by God to them THEN, that is IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs, not as a pre-condition BEFORE it can "be present" like the other, distinct matter]).
... that I'd like to point out, if I may.
The oft-repeated phrase (though not a biblical one) "The GREAT APOSTASY" (post #32) is one found nowhere in Scripture, though it is stated and written so many times that people tend to believe that it is.
The word "great" is nowhere used in verse 3 with the phrase "he apostasia" [/ apostasis] ... (the "he" being the definite article "the," in the Greek). It is just "he apostasia [/apostasis]"... NO word "great" used here with this.
It is true that God shall "send to them strong delusion" during / within the Trib years, but that part is not being addressed where Paul is making the point that the "false claim" (v.2) that the day of the Lord "IS PRESENT" cannot be true because of [such-and-such]...
They are completely distinct matters, in other words (one being before the day of the Lord / Trib can "be present"; the other, once it IS present and unfold upon the earth ["strong delusion" will be sent by God to them THEN, that is IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs, not as a pre-condition BEFORE it can "be present" like the other, distinct matter]).
^ @selahsays ,
I'm simply saying that if you think Paul was saying "such and such" has to happen "BEFORE JESUS' RETURN" (which is what you've said), then you've missed the point Paul is conveying in this text, and have missed what the content of the "false claim" in v.2 is ABOUT (that Paul is cautioning them about, and is bringing his corrective to bear on that).
Paul isn't saying "[such-and-such] must happen BEFORE JESUS' RETURN can happen," he's saying "[one thing] FIRST, and the man of sin be revealed" before it could correctly be stated "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" i.e. that the TRIB is in existence, unfolding upon the earth over the course of some time. It wasn't. It hadn't started. It wasn't present (as the false claim in v.2 is purporting THAT IS IS, and Paul is cautioning them not to be deceived that it is). Then he spells out WHY it cannot be so:
ONE pre-condition must be met (and it clearly had not); AND the man of sin has to have done the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" thing (per v.9a), in order for such a statement ("the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]" [i.e. the TRIB is here and unfolding upon the earth]) to indeed be TRUE. And that's at the BEGINNING of the 7-yrs (not at its middle).
It wasn't, and it hadn't, and he hadn't... and for them [and us] not to be deceived by anyone who might say such a thing (v.2's "false claim).
The "false claim" (v.2) didn't have anything to do with the false claimants saying anything whatsoever about "Jesus' return," as your assertion implies it to have been about. Your are smooshing together "ideas," but these are not how the sentence itself plainly reads.
And again, there is no such biblical phrase (as you've used again, for the second time that I've noticed) as that of the made-up term "the great apostasy"... which term I see tends to confuse the matter, for people reading this text... rather than to clarify it.
I'm simply saying that if you think Paul was saying "such and such" has to happen "BEFORE JESUS' RETURN" (which is what you've said), then you've missed the point Paul is conveying in this text, and have missed what the content of the "false claim" in v.2 is ABOUT (that Paul is cautioning them about, and is bringing his corrective to bear on that).
Paul isn't saying "[such-and-such] must happen BEFORE JESUS' RETURN can happen," he's saying "[one thing] FIRST, and the man of sin be revealed" before it could correctly be stated "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" i.e. that the TRIB is in existence, unfolding upon the earth over the course of some time. It wasn't. It hadn't started. It wasn't present (as the false claim in v.2 is purporting THAT IS IS, and Paul is cautioning them not to be deceived that it is). Then he spells out WHY it cannot be so:
ONE pre-condition must be met (and it clearly had not); AND the man of sin has to have done the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" thing (per v.9a), in order for such a statement ("the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [perfect indicative]" [i.e. the TRIB is here and unfolding upon the earth]) to indeed be TRUE. And that's at the BEGINNING of the 7-yrs (not at its middle).
It wasn't, and it hadn't, and he hadn't... and for them [and us] not to be deceived by anyone who might say such a thing (v.2's "false claim).
The "false claim" (v.2) didn't have anything to do with the false claimants saying anything whatsoever about "Jesus' return," as your assertion implies it to have been about. Your are smooshing together "ideas," but these are not how the sentence itself plainly reads.
And again, there is no such biblical phrase (as you've used again, for the second time that I've noticed) as that of the made-up term "the great apostasy"... which term I see tends to confuse the matter, for people reading this text... rather than to clarify it.
V.3's "... that day [v.2's Subject--"the day of the Lord" i.e. the TRIB] will not be present, if not shall have come 'he apostasia' FIRST [Paul's Subject, from v.1--ONE THING *FIRST*] and [distinctly] the man of sin be revealed..." (he/the man of sin is "revealed" at SEAL #1, at the START of the 7-yr period, not at the later points in the chronology).
[ONE THING is stated as being a pre-condition ("FIRST," before such a statement/claim can be truthfully stated; But it hadn't); the second thing listed being an evidence that the TRIB is INDEED "present" and will be when such a "claim" can then/at that time indeed be truthfully stated; It wasn't.]
Some tend to incorrectly state TWO THINGS as being said to be "FIRST"... but the sentence doesn't state such.
[ONE THING is stated as being a pre-condition ("FIRST," before such a statement/claim can be truthfully stated; But it hadn't); the second thing listed being an evidence that the TRIB is INDEED "present" and will be when such a "claim" can then/at that time indeed be truthfully stated; It wasn't.]
Some tend to incorrectly state TWO THINGS as being said to be "FIRST"... but the sentence doesn't state such.
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^ @selahsays,
The "false claimants" of verse 2 were the ones saying the TRIB is already present (already unfolding upon the earth, over some time [PERFECT indicative]); and Paul is saying, don't you believe such a deception, IT AIN'T TRUE, and here's WHY.
I'm not claiming it.
The "false claimants" Paul is talking about IN VERSE 2 were[!!!]... and why Paul is addressing this in a letter to the Thessalonians [and to us], to not be deceived by said "false claim".
The problem (when reading this text) comes in when, 1) people mis-define what "the DOTL" is (v.2, in the false claim) and WHEN it commences [solved by reading 1Th5:1-3 and understanding that it ARRIVES "exactly as [hosper] the INITIAL "birth pang [SINGULAR]" that Jesus had already spoken about: Matt24:4/Mk13:5<--WELL-BEFORE Christ's return to the earth / 2nd Coming to the earth]; and 2) conflating THIS Subject of the FALSE CLAIM ("the DOTL") with that of Paul's Subject (v.1) he is BRINGING TO BEAR on such a "false claim" by his reiterating the SEQUENCE between these two DISTINCT items (and also repeating THIS SEQUENCE 3x in this text).
The sentence does NOT read, nor convey, (as you suggest) "before Jesus' RETURN" (such and such must happen first). No.
Rather, before the statement "the day of the Lord [i.e. the TRIB] IS PRESENT" can be stated truthfully / accurately. The "false claimants" were saying it was already present. It wasn't.
The "false claimants" of verse 2 were the ones saying the TRIB is already present (already unfolding upon the earth, over some time [PERFECT indicative]); and Paul is saying, don't you believe such a deception, IT AIN'T TRUE, and here's WHY.
I'm not claiming it.
The "false claimants" Paul is talking about IN VERSE 2 were[!!!]... and why Paul is addressing this in a letter to the Thessalonians [and to us], to not be deceived by said "false claim".
The problem (when reading this text) comes in when, 1) people mis-define what "the DOTL" is (v.2, in the false claim) and WHEN it commences [solved by reading 1Th5:1-3 and understanding that it ARRIVES "exactly as [hosper] the INITIAL "birth pang [SINGULAR]" that Jesus had already spoken about: Matt24:4/Mk13:5<--WELL-BEFORE Christ's return to the earth / 2nd Coming to the earth]; and 2) conflating THIS Subject of the FALSE CLAIM ("the DOTL") with that of Paul's Subject (v.1) he is BRINGING TO BEAR on such a "false claim" by his reiterating the SEQUENCE between these two DISTINCT items (and also repeating THIS SEQUENCE 3x in this text).
The sentence does NOT read, nor convey, (as you suggest) "before Jesus' RETURN" (such and such must happen first). No.
Rather, before the statement "the day of the Lord [i.e. the TRIB] IS PRESENT" can be stated truthfully / accurately. The "false claimants" were saying it was already present. It wasn't.