Church leadership, or hierarchy

This is what it means: As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away. (Acts 13:2,3)

When the elders of a church sincerely fast and pray and ask God the Holy Spirit to show them exactly who should be appointed as an elder or deacon, God will speak to their hearts and tell them exactly who it is. There is no need for the apostles to be present.

In the New Testament, I see these as aspects of decision-making:
- Direction from God, through the Holy Spirit, etc. given to individuals involved in decision-making.
- Apostles making decisions
- Elders making decisions
- Deacons administering
- Brethren making decisions

Regular brethren made a number of decisions in scripture. They didn't let Paul into the near riotous assembly in Ephesus. They collected money, and determined who to send it to. Paul wrote many letters to the whole congregation, not just the leaders. He did write to co-laborers and Philemon about various things. One letter to the churches (Philippians) addresses bishops and deacons, but is not addressed to them. No letter treats the instructions and congregational decisions to be made as solely the responsibility of a group of elders or one leader.

The church at Corinth was to deliver the fornicator to Satan in I Corinthians, and in II Corinthians the majority of the congregation had inflicted discipline and the congregation was to take the man in.

It is possible that Corinth didn't have any elders, but doctrinally, I don't think that should make a difference doctrinally as it comes to the collective responsibility that rests upon the congregation.

In Acts 15, members of the church speak up on the Gentile circumcision issue. The example given is the wrong perspective. But it does show that at church meetings regular believers could speak. This was also true about speech intended to edify the congregation such as teaching, tongues, and interpretation as we see in I Corinthians 14:26.

So 'regular believers' could speak in church, and this would have given them more input or participation in decision making.

In Acts 6, the apostles request men to feed widows who fit certain qualifications and the congregation put them forth. It also seems quite likely that the 120 put forth the two candidates to be considered to replace Judas in Acts 1.

Apostles made decisions for congregations early on in their development. Gifts were also laid at the 12 apostles feet. But as time progressed, elders received gifts from Antioch. The apostles devoted themselves to prayer and being witnesses of the resurrection. When Paul arrived to Jerusalem amidst controversy, he was sent to James and the elders for advice. The gave advice based on the decision, based on their perception of the Spirit's will, described in Acts 15.

Apostles tended to make decisions soon after churches were forming, but they let go of those responsibilities as the church matured and other gifted saints arose. In Paul's case, he would go elsewhere, preaching, which would result in new churches that needed nuturing.

In Acts 15, both apostles and elders were involved in discussion, considering scripture, and perceiving the will of the Spirit regarding the legal obligations for Gentile believers.

In Acts 20:28, the elders of the church in Ephesus are told to pastor the church of God over whom the Holy Ghost has made them bishops/overseers. Elders in I Peter 5 are charged with pastoring the flock of God and taking the oversight thereof. They are not to lord over that allotted to them, but to serve as examples to the flock.

The exact duties of elders are not laid out in great detail. Apparently they are to have a role in stopping the mouths of those who teach false doctrine and it is honorable for an elder to engage heavily in preaching and teaching. They are to oversee the church. A requirement is to rule their household well, and being given the church is a larger responsibility similar to that.

Wonderful.

Wow, that's rare.

Double wow.

If I didn't know you were a follower of Christ, I would think you were making all this up.

I haven't been to a church like this since I was 15. That was a long time ago. You are so blessed, and I will be praying for your little country church with the pastor who gets involved in the lives of those he shepherds.

I know that the members had a lot of "say" in the life of the church, but eventually, there have to be decisions made, especially in the realm of spiritual matters.
Even the money given... it seems that the appointed elders and deacons would be the ones to make that call. NOT the "pastor".
There is too much temptation when dealing with money, that I believe God set it up so that a group of men would make prayerful decisions as to being good stewards.
Looking at many of the mega-churches, and even some of the not-so-mega churches.. when one man, the "pastor" makes all those decisions, it appears that much of the money goes to the well-being of the "pastor".

That was my case, yet I became a follower of Christ when I was 12.

Oh if that were only the case for me. Instead, I was left to fend for myself. I did the best I could on my own but eventually fell away after joining the military. I discovered alcohol, sex, and the lure of fast money. Only after God's intervention during a suicide attempt did I return and repent. Even then, it's been a slow slog that I'm convinced could have been made easier with elder mentorship.

I realize I took this phrase a bit out of context, so forgive me. But from what you're saying, the primary function of the pastor is to care for people, at least within his church. Am I correct?

If this is the case, then all the people who claim that the sole purpose of a pastor is to deliver a 1-hour sermon on Sunday and duck into his office until next week are wrong.

Pastors of function and not people. Yeah, that sums up why so many are frustrated. You often get more of a personal connection with people at a MeetUp group than within your own church. It's really sad.

Yikes! Is that why I feel like pastors don't want to get out from behind the pulpit in most cases?

IDK in one church we attended, they had a young pastor. He had lots of ideas but they all seemed to waste money. The board went right along with him and we eventually left. They decided they needed a new sign for the front of the church, no problem, but they wanted a fancy light up sign. One of the women in the church was an artist and did that kind of work for a living. She said she offered to do the work for half the price of the fancy one. The board agreed with the pastor and they spent 10 grand on the sign. We left the church not long after. We felt it was a misuse of money. Well one day we were driving by the sign and it looked damaged. Come to find out lightening struck it and did so much damage they had to go back to just a regular sign. Hubby said "If God striking it with lightening doesn't send a message, I don't know what would.

Regarding pastors: yes. Their primary function is to care for the people. I agree, the role today looks like an “everything to everyone” person.

Yes, and I don't think that includes requiring the King's wife to fill out an online form, scan a QR code, or present a background check to enter the family. Do you?

In 2023, how should a pastor teach and help perfect the saints?

I've seen it work well.

Not everyone has every gift or ability. Especially when it comes time for church administration. Just because you are great at sermon delivery doesn't mean you understand finance or how to manage the staff.
I've seen an associate/executive pastor who couldn't deliver a sermon in a paper bag....but was excellent at managing the staff and finances. And vice versa. (The staff was literally cussing and shouting at each other in the halls during one pastor's tenure until they got an executive pastor to fix things)

Every person is different and just because they don't have ALL the skills doesn't mean that they should be barred from using the talents they have.

good question

1. know Jesus as Lord and Savior
2 teach from the word of God
2. live the life he professes before the people
3. be filled with the Holy Spirit
4. be a man of prayer
5. a soul winner.


It is the Pastor's Job to speak the truth, expose the works of the devil, and not follow the trends and times of the day but the word of God.

Call sin, sin, and Jesus as the only way to Heaven.

Wow, I was beginning to think I was the only one who embraced this viewpoint. Looks like I've found another.

Do you think this "burden" you mention is the reason why there's no hope of connecting with a pastor in 2023 for more them 2.5 minutes at a time? I honestly think it would be easier to connect with the CEO of Twitter than with your local pastor.

I know what you're going to say. The churches I'm going to are too big. But I have seen this phenomenon in churches with 40 in their congregation.

I think I'm going to answer my previous question by stating this is the main problem. I live in a university town where it's all about what kind of degree you have.

When a pastor comes out of seminary with a master's or Ph.D., they now have to fight against their sinful nature to lord it over the rest of us. That's a tall order to ask a young man, especially when they have to fight against the rest of their flesh at the same time.

The amount of pride, hubris, and arrogance I've witnessed over the years from pastors is jaw-dropping. Maybe it's not so surprising when it happens in a university town, but even in a small country church, you get at least a taste of it.

This, unfortunately, is what establishes the all-too-familiar elite hierarchy within the local church. There's a top-down mentality that starts with the pastor, infects the elders, and spreads like cancer into the body.

Small groups are often established to combat this, so I think it's a good start.

There's one thing you're not mentioning in your reply: Shepherding the flock. Who's supposed to do that?

Don't get me wrong, I love this site. But why do you suppose we're all sitting here at our electronic devices typing away? Shouldn't we be discussing spiritual things with people in our local churches instead of with strangers online?

It's Saturday, and I'm pretty sure that if I were to visit my local church building right now, it would look like Fort Knox-- closed tighter than a drum. If an elder were allowed to open the building, there would be lots of members willing to bring snacks and do the exact same thing we're doing now: talking about spiritual things.

Unfortunately, if it's not part of a larger ministry program or sanctioned directly by the pastor, such impromptu nonsense is crushed like a bug. There's just no room for activity outside the man-made hierarchical structure.

I have always advocated for ending this sort of thing by taking back local churches from the ground up. There are many people who would be in a position to demand the keys to the front door. Are you one of them?

Where does he do this?

How does he accomplish this in 2023?

I don't need keys....there are no locks on the doors.

And the main reason I'm here today is that we just started getting involved in the church we have been attending. It took us a while to find it.

And I just had one of the pastoral staff over for dinner on Thursday. I want to start men's ministries outside the church...affiliated but separate at the same time. In coffee shops and bakeries and at people's homes.

But first I have to get to know people (we just moved to the area) so we were wanting to open invite people over to dinner to get them all to know each other and us. More relaxed setting....more capable of having good conversations. (But on a schedule they sign up for)

The pastor was absolutely delighted to have someone want to do stuff like that. Nobody has offered or been willing to do anything. It's likely a reason why it's not happening at your church.

And shepherding? You mean discipling...

By the "old guys"...the ones who have demonstrated some level of success in picking wives or conducting themselves in some sort of respectable fashion.

while those are two of the qualities, there are several more that need to be evident in their lives...

The Church I’ve been called to has a plurality of 8 elders which includes the two full time on staff pastors who do the sermons. Every elder is capable of filling in for the Pastors though that hasn’t happened since Covid. All Elders are considered Shepherds capable of handling spiritual needs of the church body. we also have a Deacon board to handle the maintenance and upkeep of the building and grounds etc.