...no man cometh to the Father, but by Me.

What do you think Jesus meant when He said Abraham rejoiced to see His day?

The New Covenant could not be in effect at the same time as the Old Covenant. So you are mistaken. However justification was always by grace through faith since Abel. That was not identical to a new heart and a new spirit, which required the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So, according to your stated belief, God was not talking to the Israelites of that day when he said this?

Ezekiel 18:30-32

"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

Not that this is some sort of personal dispute with you to me, but you are the one who is gravely mistaken.

The unbelieving Jews were not Abraham's descendants spiritually (v. 39). But here when Jesus referred to your father Abraham He meant they were physically related to him. Abraham rejoiced to see My day, that is, the messianic salvation which God promised (“all peoples on earth will be blessed through you”; Ge 12:3). Abraham by faith was granted a son Isaac, through whom the Seed (Christ) would come. How much of the messianic times God revealed to His friend Abraham is unknown. But it is clear that he knew of the coming salvation and he rejoiced in knowing about it and expecting it.

Many of the Biblical verses that speak to the trials of Abraham display a symbolism that foreshadow Christ. It is obvious Abraham knew enough to be secure in his hope and joyful about the future.

Yes. God was talking to the Israelites at that time. Which did not mean that this happening at that time. If you were familiar with New Testament you would know why it was not happening then, but happened only at Pentecost and later. The Holy Spirit was needed to bring about the New Covenant. And your thumbs down simply shows your ignorance.

I agree it's hard to know how much OT saints understood. But rejoiced to see my day suggests a future hope. And saw it suggests he experienced its reality.

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5‬

Can you see those verses in the beginning brother ? From a differing perspective ?

In the beginning was God all thkngs we’re made by him ,

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ( before the word became flesh )

And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1-3‬ ‭

Do you see the same lord in both cases ?

but what about this which came 439 years after the promise made to Abraham , Is this also the same word ?

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭23:20-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

notice the lord is warning the people about this angel he’s appointed over them

what im saying is it’s the same in the beginning d then when Jesus came but in between from the time of Moses until Matthew there is th is covenant that was introduced this part isn’t th same it’s not of faith or the same ordination or mediation

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In the beginning there was light seperate from darkness and in the middle darkness covered the earth and the people but later the son rose and light shined again

this part isnt of the faith of the beginning but came for sin and darkness

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God has always been th same man has changed we became wicked and so the law became necassary to get the world to Christ and redemption reconciliation

reconciliation means there was a prior relationship that was broken and then later restored to its original order the world changed to n the middle but God and salvstion has never changed he just became hidden from mans understanding for a time under the law and so Christ came for this reason

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

There's a lot there and as far as I can see I agree with most of it. How about the second question?

It’s always all been true brother but man hasn’t always known about it the new testement is revealing what was always true but was hidden in Moses writings

Totally agree with this.

Wow, there's some bad doctrine in this thread.

Revelation has always been progressive: from one era to another. As @Pilgrimshope wrote, the truth has always been established BUT the revelation of that truth to man has not always been the same. Certainly, now that we can look back on both the New and Old Testaments, we can see Christ BUT He did not appear to men, in full, until His death and resurrection.

For example, the prophets of old did not speak to the people of God "in Son" until the Son appeared.

"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe."

Many Jews today, because their mind is veiled, do not see God as their Father. To them, Abraham is their father. This is why the Jews and the Arabs fight: they're squabbling over the inheritance of their father who was only a man. This is the limit of the Moses and the prophets: without the catalyst of receiving the Son, the minds of the people remain shrouded.

@Cameron143 your question is much deeper than my answer. I apologize for not giving its due attention.

I thought you did great. The point in asking the questions was to generate conversation and perhaps have take a fresh look at our own misconceptions.

“Many Jews today, because their mind is veiled, do not see God as their Father.”

“They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father.

Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:39-41‬ ‭KJV‬‬


The thing is they rejected who and what makes one a son of God by his own declaration

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:12-13‬ ‭

yet they claimed to the children of God , to be sons of Abraham who are the sons of god , while rejecting him at every point he spoke and taught . That makes a believer a son of God

they said this

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father.

Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:39-41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Yet they rejected this which is the fulfillment of Abraham’s promise and Gods children , being in the promised seed of Abraham Jesus Christ and his “body “

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, ( flesh and blood identification is not there anymore ) there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Abraham’s children are the children of God but it’s not speaking of his flesh and blood descendants rather those children of Abraham who are baptized into the seed of Abraham in whom all the promises reside and exist

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

he wasn’t promising all of Abraham’s flesh and blood descendants but was prophetically speaking forward of Jesus christ

“and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭12:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, and said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; ( the church ) and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; ( thy seed as in one his enemies )and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭22:15-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Then this is the revelation of that

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:7-9, 14, 16, 23-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

anrahams children of promise not the seed of flesh but the church in Christ Jesus the hiers of Gods promise in Abraham Isaac and Jacob fulfilled in Jesus and the gospel

“And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭8:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You know how God blinded the ot Israelites ? The law of Moses is that veil that obscures thier understanding of God because they didn’t know it was prophetic and would later be fulfilled they can’t see it’s end

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament;

which vail is done away in Christ.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we read the Old Testament like that’s the final word we will never hear the New Testament , but if we begin to see the prophetic nature of the law and prophets we can begin to see Jesus and life

We have a lot of agreement brother when I don’t overshare lol and get my arthritic ankle in my mouth

I think your posts are great...even when you post 5 at a time.

Well I appreciate the patience I think when we near the end we tend to want to get alot out in a little time i reckon . I think we all have some dandy i formation but alot of times I say too much i think we have to have grace between one another sometimes because of the imperfect nature of what we humans do in our flawed ways if there is grace between Christian’s there’s always value to be found but if the spirit isn’t right it’s fodder for the impending flames the wrong approach and attitude can derail richly blessed words is sort of my point I wish I was better at presentation but I am what I am I suppose like we all are yet to be perfected

I know God places alot on your heart. And we all ought to be much more gracious than we ofttimes are, especially considering the great grace that attends us daily.

Well said brother you are appreciated and loved in the lord

Thread Title
.no man cometh to the Father, but by Me.

this is that Scripture -----in the New testament ----John 14



My opinion is -------that in the Old Testament God dealt directly with the people ------there was no permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament -----Animal sacrifice was in place to cover sin ---the 2 death was prominent---- The Old Testament saints were deemed righteous by their faith ----which was shown by their obedience to God's commands ------the Holy Spirit came and went as needed in the Old Testament -----and the Old Testament Saints went to Abraham's Bosom which was called Paradise ----which was in the upper region of Hell -----and this is where Jesus went after He was resurrected I believe---- He was preaching the Good News to the Saints who then were taken and received into heaven by Jesus ------ which is in keeping with ---No one comes to the Father except through me ------

So to answer this Question ------
Has this always been the case, or did it become true at some point in history?[/QUOTE]

It came when the Word became Flesh and walked among us to Preach the Gospel of Grace -----shed His Blood ----was Crucified --Died and was Resurrected -----as that is when the right Faith could be inbirthed into the person by hearing the Gospel ---- sin was dealt with ---- the Holy spirit came to dwell in the believer making their Spirit Holy and heaven bound ---and eternal life was resurrected -----the 2nd death was defeated ---