Jesus, before becoming a man

Thread Title ---

Jesus, before becoming a man

I think the title is a bit confusing ----as before Jesus became a man ---he was a boy ----

So if it had read ----Jesus incarnated before he became a man ----would have been a more clear meaning ---Just saying ----because that is what apparently was the meaning ---not what Jesus did or was as a boy -------

My view

Jesus is the Word ------so Jesus who is the Word created all that is in this earth -------God the Father Spoke Jesus who is the Word -------and Created everything from speaking Jesus ---the Word ------

When we humans turned the Light switch Off which turned the Good that Jesus Created off and brought in the Bad --then God the Father incarnated the Word into Spirit and Flesh who is Jesus to turn the Light switch back on so the Good could once again prevail in this world and the bad would be defeated -----

.
● Matt 22:41-46 . . While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked
them: What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?

. . .The son of David; they replied.

. . . He said to them: How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls
him Lord? For he says: "The Lord said to my Lord: sit at my right hand until
I put your nemies under your feet". If then David calls him Lord, how can he
be his son? No one could say a word in reply, and from that day on no one
dared to ask him any more questions.

Jesus' reference was to Psalm 110:1 where there are two separate Hebrew
words for "lord". The first is Jehovah (a.k.a. Yahweh) and the second is
'adown: a versatile word often used as a courteous title of respect for elders
and or superiors.

For example Sarah spoke of her husband as 'adown at Gen 18:12, Rachel
addressed her dad by it at Gen 31:5, and Jacob addressed his brother Esau
by 'adown at Gen 33:8.

So we could paraphrase Ps 110:1 like this:

"Jehovah said to my superior" etc, etc.

Normally, sons are inferior in rank to their fathers (Ex 20:12) but there in Ps
110 is a father inferior in rank to his son. The reason being (the Pharisees
should've known this) David saw his son taken to a higher place than
himself; and David wasn't the only one who anticipated this.

● Dan 7:13-14 . . In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was
one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the
Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory
and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language
worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass
away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. (cf. Acts 2:34
36)

The Pharisees were all very knowledgeable men and no doubt fully aware of
Psalm 110:1 and believed it's true. But they were totally baffled how any
man, even Messiah, could possibly manage to achieve such a high position.

Christians are inclined to force Ps 110:1 into proving Christ is God but the
Hebrew of that verse doesn't go along with their view. It's only saying that
one of David's sons has been elevated to a kingship higher than all others--
himself included --which in Jewish thinking is contrary to Ps 89:20-27
wherein David is declared God's firstborn.

* The rank of firstborn in the Bible isn't restricted to primogeniture, rather,
the position is quite transferrable; for example: Ishmael to Isaac (Gen
20:11-12) Esau to Jacob (Gen 25:23) Reuben to Joseph (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr
5:1) and Manasseh to Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and of course David to Jesus
(Col 1:15 & Heb 1:2)

Plus; the rank of firstborn pertains to more than only family circles. For
example the people of Israel are God's firstborn among the world's nations.
(Ex 4:22).
_

The commentary here is missing that Christ came from a superior position before he ascended (back again) to the superior position).
I suppose that it is generally assumed that 'being made lower than the angels" means being made a man but, as a recent cc commentator though I can't clearly recall to rightfully cite had observed something like, 'angels are made servants of man' so it would seem to me that 'being made lower than the angels' actually describes a position perhaps only higher than the animals.... just thinking along as I catch up with the comments.

As you mentioned in post Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, and more precisely the Alef and the Tau of the Hebrew Alefbet. And an interesting observation I came across following a jewish Christian's study of the Hebrew Alefbet is that the middle letter is 'mem,' which is a pictograph of water and is representative of water, and ' emet,' spelled alef-mem-tau, is the Hebrew word for "Truth," as so also, He is The Truth.

in reguards to the angelic beings


“Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1‬:‭14‬ ‭NIV‬‬


“Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6‬:‭2‬-‭3‬ ‭NIV‬‬

i was thinking of that this morning too, and remembered that Christ had said whoever wanted to be great among us must make themselves the servant of others, and Paul too reiterated this, saying we ought to in love consider everyone above ourselves.

so i am not sure that being the servant of men makes Christ lower than men - rather, in humility, He is more honored than men who set themselves over others.

that, and the context/theme of Hebrews 1 seems clearly to me that, like written in Philippians too, He is greater than men and angels, equally God, but took on a form lower than angels - setting up I suppose the argument that the He is both nearer to us in being a mediator and greater than the mediators of covenants that came before His with us. so i think that is telling me that yes, He is truly man.

interestingly Hebrews doesnt seem to make effort to prove He is God - it's almost taken for granted in the introduction, simply declared! and this mirrors the early church arguments in the ecumenical councils, His deity was not at issue, but how it is that He is also human

thanks fornthe information brother God bless

“And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, And his ministers a flame of fire.

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; And the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, And they shall be changed: But thou art the same, And thy years shall not fail.

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, Until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭1:6-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I bet you were thinking of his section

Ephesians 3:9 KJV
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.

amen

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5, 9-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Inquisitor, I appreciate your response. With regard to your first tex I understand it to be Jesus, vs. 26, implies the voice came from a figure of a man. As we continue reading into chapter 2:3, This form of a man say to Ezekiel, "I am sending you to the Israelites. to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against me , they and their ancestors have been in revolt against me to this very day." This as I understand it can be no other then, the second member of the God head whom we know as Jesus after He took on the form of man. Most all references to God in the old testament are in reference to Jesus pre incarnate.

Speaking to Rev. 1:12-15, in vs. 13, John sees a image of a man, and in vs. 17 there can be no doubt as to who this image is, "Do not be afraid. I am the First an the Last. I am the living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever!" There should be no doubt this is in reference the second member of the Godhead, Jesus after he took on the form of man, and died for the sins of mankind.

FollowingtheWay, I do hope you become certain that the Angel of the Lord, in the two texts you posted, is Jesus pre-incarnat. Post #4, should help you come to that realization. If so your love for Jesus will grow stronger.

Continue to follow this thread, as I will add more insights for you and others to consider.

1 Timothy 3:16

bluto, I appreciate your post, agree with just about all of it. Since this post is about better understanding Jesus preincarnate, I would like you and all who are following this thread to consider the following, for the purpose of better understanding our amazing God.

First, I have come to understand that the Bible never contradicts itself. If we consider certain texts to be contradictive it is because our understanding is wrong, therefore we must rethink the issue until the contradiction is resolved.

Your comment above bluto, is a perfect example. I hope you don't become defensive and start firing poison arrows at me, because my motive is not to make me look better informed than you, but rather to share with others what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me, for His Glory.

You referenced Gen. 22, as proof that Michael the archangel, "is not," the Angel of the Lord. With that thought in mind consider the contradicting that occurs with the two texts given in the following: It is the last point of eight given to prove that Mechael the archangel is Jesus preincarnate, by this individual of whom I have know for over thirty five years, and she is not an JW.

POINT EIGHT: Jesus encouraged us to: “Search the Scriptures.” (John 5:39) It is very important to compare texts throughout the different books of the Bible, for there is no single writer found in the Old or New Testament who had all of God’s truth revealed to them. Each inspired writer was given a glimpse of the heavenly vision. If our hearts “thirst” after truth, we must carefully search with all our hearts and read all that the Bible says about any given subject.

The apostles, John and Paul, give a good example of how two texts can describe the same event, but in slightly different ways. Paul says dead believers are resurrected at the voice of the Archangel. “For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16)
John records that the Lord Jesus said the dead righteous would be resurrected at the sound of His own voice. “I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. . . . And He has given Him authority to judge because He is the Son of Man. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out – those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.” (John 5:25-29) These parallel passages are speaking of the same event. Paul, in Thessalonians, calls it “the voice of the Archangel” and John, in His gospel, calls it “the voice of the Son of God.”

When Christ returns to call His faithful ones to life, every angel in heaven will come with Him: “The Son of Man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him.” (Matthew 25:31) He is their Commander! There is no mystery here – Jesus, the Life-giver, is also, Michael, the Archangel, preincarnate.

Should anyone be interested in hearing her other seven points just let me know.

“If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:1-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

amen the thing is we didn’t have this order until Jesus was born lived spoke and died and raised up o to heaven God did this for us becoming the man who didn’t exist

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

He came to us because we couldn’t reach up to him became one of us who were lost in order to become our intercessor mediator and priest

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:9-11, 14-18‬ ‭

a God is all we need the father son holt ghost our shepherd and teacher our high priest and intercessor our sacrifice even as also the priest offering himself as sacrifice Jesus is more than just one thing god became all of what we need to be saved in him in Christ Jesus

from the word to the blood to the spirit to the father and son god is in all and through all and by him all things consist whether this world or the next

Of course Goldwing, your correct.

Jesus was the image of the invisible God, Jesus was a perfect image of God in earthly form.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

That is what the Word means, the perfect image of God expressed upon this universe.

We have never heard, seen, or known, any other God but that image of God, i.e., Jesus.

Only by looking at the image of God ( the Son ) can we see the Father.

When God spoke in the Old Testament, the Word was speaking.

No one has ever seen, heard, or known, the Father.

The question is: if Jesus was God in the flesh, and the Father knows the time but the Son doesn't, then how could the Son be the same as the Father.
The Son isn't the same as the Father, as verse 32 above exemplifies. Both both are God. The Son is born of flesh, the Father is Spirit:
Let me explain, and please bear with me, this is difficult to put into words that don't seemingly contradict (though they do not at all contradict).
God came down to Earth, was clothed with flesh (in Mary's womb), and was and is known to us as Jesus Christ.
God Himself, the Father, is in Heaven―He is God. Jesus was man, flesh. Jesus was God, made a little lower than the angels (so-that/because-that He could die):
What that means is that Jesus was born of flesh, which is lower than an angel. Angels are greater than flesh men, as the Scripture declares:
while Jesus was in the flesh He did not have access to the full mind of God. He was hindered by being saddled with the flesh body and mind. But when Jesus ascended, He was no longer in the flesh and knew everything, for He was God. So, while at the time of that statement "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but [only] the Father." (Mk 13:32) Jesus didn't know; but, when Jesus ascended after the crucifixion, He did know (but wasn't going to tell us anyway).
A careful read of the Scripture to which you are referring to (supplied again below) will reveal the use of several terms. Now, understand that the terms "Father" and "Son" (for God and Jesus) are unique to our flesh world. They have no necessity or place in Heaven.

.

The Word per John 1:1-3 didn't exist as the flesh per John 1:14 till he was
conceived per Luke 1:26-35.

It is a relatively simple task to show that the Word's flesh descended from
Adam so I can be certain in my own mind that the Word's existence as a
man didn't begin before he created one in the first chapter of Genesis.
_

No one has ever seen, heard, or known, the Father.

What about Philip ? Did he see and know the father ? Or did he just not know and realize he had met and known and seen him ?

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Philip is asking about someone else , jesus is trying to say “ dont you understand yet Philip who I AM ? I have shown you the farther , you have seen me “

Thomas also didn’t realize until later eho Jesus really was when we Christian’s say I believe in the son of God it’s this person who fulfills all these titles in one being

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭

Jesus is the full manifestation of God father son and holy ghost in one person bodily until Jesus came into the world the father son and Holy Ghost were unknown by all after he came preaching his doctrine everyone can know about the fe th r sin and Holy Ghost by hearing and believing the gospel we can truly know God

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20‬

“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

magenta, would it be God the Father who created the heavens, earth, host.....? Jesus is God in the form of man but Jesus wasn't alive yet. just asking.