A question about Ephesians 6:12

Ephesians 6:12 King James Version 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. In the ESV it says, "against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places." Does this mean there are devils in heaven engaging in spiritual warfare against believers, or would heavenly places refer to somewhere else?

The Aramaic Peshitta actually does a better Job of translation.
Ephesians 6:12 - For your conflict is not only with flesh and blood, but also with the angels, and with powers, with the rulers of this world of darkness, and with the evil spirits under the heavens.

Your TV cable stations are of this world. Spiritual wickedness is in all Gov'ts in the world. Christians are in a constant battle with this world. Its easier just to drink and overeat with unsaved people of the world and get along. But we need to separate from them, because we are not of this world. Since we are spiritual, our battle is spiritual. Satan is constantly accusing God's chosen elect.

Hey, Lee.

First of all, "heavenly places" would actually be a better translation than "high places". The Greek word which is translated into English as "high" in the KJV is epouranios:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g2032/kjv/tr/0-1/

This word appears 20 times in the Textus Receptus from which the KJV is translated into English, and 16 of those times it is translated into English as "heavenly", 2 times it is translated into English as "celestial", 1 time it is translated into English as "in heaven", and, of course, in the last instance here in Ephesians 6:12, it is translated into English as "high". With this in mind, we are definitely reading about spiritual wickedness or wicked spirits in heavenly places. In fact, most Bible translations translate epouranios into English as "in the heavenly realms", "in the heavenly places", or "in the heavens."

https://biblehub.com/ephesians/6-12.htm

In order to understand this better, we need to realize that the Bible speaks of more than one heaven. In fact, it speaks of three heavens.

2 Corinthians 12:1-4

"It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

According to Paul, there are three heavens, and "the third heaven" is where "paradise" is located or it is where God the Father, Jesus, and the dead in Christ presently dwell. Logic dictates that if there is a "third heaven", then there must also be a first and second heaven. The first heaven is this earth's atmosphere, or it is the place where the fowl fly.

Genesis 1:20

"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

Seeing how the fowl fly in what we could rightly call "the first heaven", and seeing how "paradise" is in "the third heaven" where God the Father, Jesus, and the dead in Christ presently dwell, logic dictates that "the second heaven" must lie between these two other "heavens". With such being the case, "the second heaven", if I can call it that, would appear to be what we might normally call "outer space" or the region between our earth's atmosphere and "the third heaven".

So, in which of these three heavens do wicked spirits operate?

Personally, I believe that they operate in all three.

For example:

Revelation 12:7-12

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Let me see if I can break down what we just read a bit.

First of all, this "war in heaven" was prophesied by the prophet Daniel, and this will be the fulfillment of it when it happens.

Daniel 12:1

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

The time is still coming when Michael, "the great prince" or the archangel (Jude 1:9), will stand up with his angels to do battle against Satan and his angels. When this heavenly battle takes place, Michael and his angels will prevail, and Satan and his angels will no longer have any dwelling place in the "heavens", but they will be "cast out into the earth", or "cast down", and they will "come down" unto the inhabiters of the earth and sea. When they "come down", Satan will have great wrath because he will know that he has but a short time, and this short time will be "a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" (Daniel 12:1), or this will be the time of what we commonly call the "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21).

Please notice that, prior to this time, or prior to the time of Satan's "casting down", Satan will have been "the accuser of our brethren...which accused them before our God day and night", and these accusations will have taken place before God in "the third heaven". In fact, this is precisely what we see happening in the book of Job.

Job 1:6-7

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

Job 2:1-2

"Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

Here, we see "the sons of God", or angels, presenting themselves before the LORD in heaven, and Satan came also among them. Not only that, but he came from going to and fro in the earth. In other words, Satan has access to all three heavens even as I type. He accused Job before the throne of God in "the third heaven" in the days of Job, and he is still the accuser of the brethren before God's throne in "the third heaven" as I type.

It is my understanding, however, that this "war in heaven" (Revelation 12:7) between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels will not take place in "the third heaven", but in what we might rightly call "the second heaven" instead.

Please consider the following portions of scripture which, in context, are parts of a conversation between the prophet Daniel and the angel Gabriel:

Daniel 10:12-13

"Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."

Daniel 10:20

"Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come."

Here, the angel Gabriel, who is the one doing the talking, revealed some very relevant truths to us in relation to your question. For one thing, he told Daniel that he had been sent to him from the first day that he had prayed, "but the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes", or one of the archangels, "came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia." These "princes" and "kings" of whom Gabriel spoke were angelic beings with whom he and Michael had to do battle in the heavenly region between "the third heaven", from which Gabriel was sent to Daniel, and the earth upon which Daniel dwelt. In fact, Gabriel had to fight against these angelic beings for 21 days or for three weeks, and he was only able to prevail against them with the assistance of the "chief prince" or archangel Michael.

Not only this, but Gabriel told Daniel that when he left him he would be returning to fight with the prince of Persia, and then the prince of Grecia or Greece would come. Again, these "princes" are angelic beings who seemingly reside in the region we might rightly call "the second heaven", and they apparently have great sway or spiritual influence over the regions where they dwell. Anyhow, I believe that when Michael and his angels fight against Satan and his angels in the "war in heaven" (Revelation 12:7) that it will take place in this "heaven" or in what we might rightly call "the second heaven". Again, the outcome of that war will be that Satan and his angels will be cast out of the heavenly realms and down to this earth where they will come with great wrath.

With these things in mind, as I said earlier, I believe that Satan and his angels presently have access to all three heavens, and this is who we are truly fighting against as Christians.

This is a great question.

Eph. 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. (ASV), better translation from the original Greek: For our conflict is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the authorities, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of evil in the heavenlies.

Defined as: Our conflict is not with one another. Not with individuals, even though one might be persecuted by an individual, (For our conflict is not against flesh and blood), but it is against the authorities of this World System. Anywhere, that there is immoral and sinful teachings, as well as, those who appose the Truth. Whether they be religious heresy or secular laws. This does not mean to protest against these things, such as the Social Gospel believers might teach but to speak and teach against them by placing God's Truth against error. First, against that which could be constituted as "local", then all authorities and Worldly rulers. (against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness). Finally, those that are spirits of evil - like the Devil and the fallen Angels. Who are said to be in the heavens. Not the Heaven of God's Throne but of the heavens known to surround earth. Like our atmosphere or the air. As in this meaning: Eph_2:2 wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;

Again, great question.

While one can agree with the Peshitta's conslusions, it is really not all that helpful to say (as you do) that the Peshitta "does a better job of translation." For one, the Peshitta is not necessarily "translating" from the same underlying apparatuses as other versions do. There is a very big difference between "interpretation," "interpolation," and "translation."

And not only that, there is a certain level of "textual ambiguity" in the Peshitta, because it may have (and was) using multiple underlying sources as it was being copied, and may have retained "interpolations" (not "interpretations") that may have carried over from other sources it was relying on.

The Peshitta doesn't really tell us much about "translating," per se. Rather, it only gives us a glimpse into how the text may have been understood.

Finally, and probably more problematic, is that you have to now argue for the accuracy of the particular "translation" of the Peshitta which you cited. Because various "translations" of the Peshitta actually do not read as the version you cited does. What you're really arguing is: The English version of the Peshitta you cited "does a better job of translation." That is a very big difference.

That said, you need to be more careful with your chosen word, "translation."

I almost forgot to include one small detail. You tell us that the Peshitta "does a better job of translation," but forget to tell us why. Ad simply because, "I like it," will not suffice.

I'm not saying I disagree with what the Peshitta (particularely, the version you cited by George Lamsa) says, I'm simply asking you to provide the evidence for what you said (not what the Peshitta said).

The Peshitta nowhere makes the claim that "it" does "a better job of translation." But I am definitely curious as to why you think it (especially the edition put out by George Lamsa) does.

I almost forgot to include one small detail. You tell us that the Peshitta "does a better job of translation," but forget to tell us why. Ad And simply because, "I like it," will not suffice.

I'm not saying I disagree with what the Peshitta (particularely particularly, the version you cited by George Lamsa) says, I'm simply asking you to provide the evidence for what you said (not what the Peshitta said).

The Peshitta nowhere makes the claim that "it" does "a better job of translation." But I am definitely curious as to why you think it (especially the edition put out by George Lamsa) does.

the matters of the spiritual realm oppose our mindset it is both here and not here it surpases the rules of this world not that it is better as there is both dark and light in it it is a realm a dimension that both exists in this one at the same time and yet doesn't

Faith and belief is the key to not just understanding this realm but living in it people can feel him in you everywhere you go but the spiritual realm works diffrent than normal reasoning, you act mertrely by what is in your heart it is instinctive no though or doubts affect you if you believe if you are willing if yor heart is for him only then even when you go through hell which I have seen first hand and perhaps is why I go so far for the lost but you won't come back the same

All these people with creative versons of hell each proclaiming to experience hell itself yet all you see is creqtive stories abundance in following and even finiancially gifts

I can tell you firdt hsnd any prophet who reveres his words who treats it as the most holy sacred not to be messed with the gall it takes to speak of him to act as if you are the mouth of God himdelf fsr to many call themselves prophets yet lookn at the results being a prophet isn't about being special like everyone first thinks the fact you would call yourself a prophet but will mainly recieve attacks not that matters what you sat it has a;rready been made clear that people have fogotten the role of a prophey


Ig your just all talk if you just speak thing yet it never bares any fruit are you really beig lead by the spirit? how many churches teach the spirit not only confirms the word but shows how real it is? we study the word but doese there not come a point where we realize everything we read we barely see


When you read the word of god do you take it sd it is? do you atribute your own thoughts and understanding to it? the only way to see and understandning is to be niave to be child like to be a clean slate of what you thouhjt what you understood what you saw as truth because it goes so much more than you can dream or imagine more than I can describe withouy doing any shame to the sacred holiness to the words he spreaks from his breath

Unfortunately there are a lot of people who attribute their own thoughts and understanding to it.

Agreed .....I should have said more readable or understandable.

This is way there are so many denominations fifferent doctrines and interpretations that people will defend unyil yhey are blue the fiverity the interpretsytions the self understanding of the woid of God if this isn't obsuious that the the seeds and nfruits of the enemy guide us then we just axcept the system we were built in

Think about it we have studied the word of god to the pointy it is barely seen as important it is usually a well known verse message ro scripture you haven't seen before the word of call;ed alive if it just paper and ink like every other book then it's claim would be ridiculois there would be no reason to study it or follow it if there is no fruits no results if his word is not proven to be true why would anyone read it or seek the truth from it?

What is the word of God to us? how important does it's revelance and influence reakky go do we take the word of God as the actually spoken word of this akmisghty not to be messed with gkorious uniAGINABLE KING

Yet we see and use his word as mere text no different than any other book what is the word of God really? how should we treat it in that regard?