Which Bible Verses Will Prepare You for the Post-Tribulation Rapture (and the Great Tribulation Before That?)

ewq1938 · Oct 1, 2023

No, but this is about actual clouds because it separates clouds and air from people:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Two times for emphasis regarding AIR and CLOUDS, then separately the people taken there "WE" to meet other people "THEM", also a double reference. Obviously it would be error to think people are also CLOUDS and AIR in this passage.

The verse is not saying this:

Then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with THEM in the THEM, to meet the Lord in the THEM: and so shall WE ever be with the Lord.

ewq1938 · Oct 1, 2023

07-07-07 said:

Two churches of The Church are mentioned in Rev 11. The saints are part of the Church as well. The two witnesses and the 144k and the beheaded saints of Rev 20, and future murdered saints of the 5th seal are all the church in the trib. The only part of the church that leaves before the trib are those of the Apostasy, and even they are still on the Earth because their departure is not physical or locational.

Nehemiah6 · Oct 1, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

Did it ever occur to you that "clouds" could also be used as a metaphor?

ewq1938 · Oct 1, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

That is actually his argument, that being caught up to the clouds is not to be brought up to literal clouds but to a group of people ie: a cloud of people. I believe both, that people will be raptured up to the clouds, in the air, to meet a group of people.

Truthnightmare · Oct 1, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

No, I have never looked at a biblical word and considered if it was a metaphor, an analogy, a simile, or an idiom.

I take everything at face value, so I believe Jesus is an actual lamb that baas.. I believe Eve is the mother of all living including hippos, and turtles, and the fallen angels are really grasshoppers.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 1, 2023

Truthnightmare said:

Regarding the phrase "caught up [G726-verb] TOGETHER [adverb] WITH them" (or, "together with them shall be caught up"),

... notice what this Lexicon tells us about grammar:

" In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα [together] is followed by σύν [with], ἅμα [together] is an adverb ([meaning / defined as] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb."

-- [taken from BlueLetterBible, under the heading Thayer's - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g260/kjv/tr/0-1/ ; bold, and inserted brackets, and underline mine]

This means that, the "[we which are alive and remain unto... (portion of the One Body)] "together with [at the same time] them shall be caught up"...

...and this is why the dead in Christ are going to "rise first" (that is, be bodily resurrected [defined as 'to stand again'] up from their graves--no bones or anything left of them in the graveyards or wherever--that is, "bodily resurrected" just like Jesus had been),
and we shall all be "changed" (i.e. given a glorified / perfected body--"like unto His glorious body" Phil3:21 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...+unto+his+glorious+body&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1 )
before we are [all of us (of the ONE Body) TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME] "caught up [/snatched away]"... "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR";

This is what the passage is conveying.

Yes, "the dead in Christ" are presently "at home with the Lord" ("absent from the body"); but the 1Th4:17 passage is speaking of what will take place when their BODIES will be resurrected ['to stand again']... which is what the phrase "shall RISE first" (before the "caught up" aspect) speaks to.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 1, 2023

^ ETA: In the scenario you present (from what I can tell), there is NO "bodily resurrection" of "the dead in Christ" (read the entirety of 1Cor15 on that Subject--esp. vv.12-21 or 22).

Ah, but there IS! = )

Truthnightmare · Oct 3, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Regarding the phrase "caught up [G726-verb] TOGETHER [adverb] WITH them" (or, "together with them shall be caught up"),

... notice what this Lexicon tells us about grammar:

" In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα [together] is followed by σύν [with], ἅμα [together] is an adverb ([meaning / defined as] at the same time) and must be joined to the verb."

-- [taken from BlueLetterBible, under the heading Thayer's - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g260/kjv/tr/0-1/ ; bold, and inserted brackets, and underline mine]

This means that, the "[we which are alive and remain unto... (portion of the One Body)] "together with [at the same time] them shall be caught up"...

...and this is why the dead in Christ are going to "rise first" (that is, be bodily resurrected [defined as 'to stand again'] up from their graves--no bones or anything left of them in the graveyards or wherever--that is, "bodily resurrected" just like Jesus had been),
and we shall all be "changed" (i.e. given a glorified / perfected body--"like unto His glorious body" Phil3:21 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...+unto+his+glorious+body&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1 )
before we are [all of us (of the ONE Body) TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME] "caught up [/snatched away]"... "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR";

This is what the passage is conveying.

Yes, "the dead in Christ" are presently "at home with the Lord" ("absent from the body"); but the 1Th4:17 passage is speaking of what will take place when their BODIES will be resurrected ['to stand again']... which is what the phrase "shall RISE first" (before the "caught up" aspect) speaks to.

Truthnightmare · Oct 3, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Here are the English words that the Translators used to translate the Greek word harpazo; and, as you can see, it sure isn't any "Rapture" that you want to be in:

John 6:15
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. KJV
John 10:12
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. KJV
John 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. KJV
John 10:29
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. KJV

Greek word #726 harpazo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications): KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Below is every occurrence in the King James Bible of the English term "caught up":

2 Corinthians 12:2
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven. KJV
2 Corinthians 12:4
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. KJV
1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. KJV
Revelation 12:5
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught upunto God, and to his throne. KJV

caught up: Greek word #726 harpazo (har-pad'-zo); from a derivative of NT:138; to sieze (in various applications): KJV - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Now, that is only a list of the English term "caught up" in the Bible; however, that term is the translation of the Greek word harpazo, which was not always translated to the simple two English words "caught up," Therefore, a complete listing of the usage of this underlying Greek word, we must use an Englishman's Concordance. Thus, with that reference volume we see the below complete list. Below is every occurrence of the Greek word harpazo in the Greek manuscript underlying the King James Bible (the Textus Receptus). The English words used to translate that Greek word "harpazo" into the English of the King James are listed below.

Matthew 11:12
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violenttake it by force. KJV
Matthew 13:19
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, andcatcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. KJV
John 6:15
15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. KJV
John 10:12
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. KJV
John 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. KJV
John 10:29
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. KJV
Acts 8:39
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. KJV
Acts 23:10
10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle. KJV
2 Corinthians 12:2
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

such an one caught up to the third heaven. KJV
2 Corinthians 12:4
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. KJV
1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. KJV
Jude 23
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. KJV
Revelation 12:5
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught upunto God, and to his throne. KJV

Truthnightmare · Oct 3, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

I read it…. But it wouldn’t hurt to read it again with your perspective in mind.

However…

Luke 8:53-55 (Jesus raises a dead girl)
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. (KJV)

When she died, It (her soul/spirit) went immediately back to God who gave it, Jesus called her back to life and God sent her soul/spirit back, thus she resurrected into her mortal body (she would still go on to die someday). When Jesus resurrected her, He resurrected her into an (her) mortal body.
We, when we die, also will be resurrected, but into immortality, into an (our) immortal body (in Heaven) if we overcome, by and through Christ Jesus. Jesus was teaching here, what Jesus did for this young girl was a 'type' of what He shall do for all true overcoming believers, but that resurrection will be a resurrection into immortal 'bodies.

Lucy-Pevensie · Oct 4, 2023

07-07-07 said:

Actually it doesn't.

"The elect" & "The saints" "Servants" are synonymous terms for "the church" and are used thusly in NT books.
In the chapters between 3 & 21 The term "the church" is not used to refer to saints on earth or in heaven.

Please don't be deceived by false teachers.
If that term "the church" is proof she has disappeared from earth- she must have disappeared from heaven as well.

Where are the churches?

She has taken up her cross and not denied it. That she may be counted worthy of The Kingdom of God for which she suffers.
God will give relief to her at the second coming of Jesus.
Explained in detail in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 1

07-07-07 · Oct 4, 2023

Lucy-Pevensie said:

That isn't consistent. Jesus mentions the Churches extensively in Revelation Chapters 1-3, but He no longer mentions the Churches afterwards but only mentions the Saints. However, and finally, He mentions the Churches again at the end of Revelation.

Revelation 22
[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Why would He now refer to them as Churches and not Saints? So, if the Churches are to endure such extreme hardships and persecutions during the great tribulation, it would be inconsistent and odd to not mention them but only reference the Saints. After all, Revelation is a book that Jesus dictated to John for the Churches, so not mentioning them anymore after Chapter 3 would be inconsistent and odd. This material fact gives credence to the Rapture theory, one that espouses that the Church will be caught up before the great tribulation. This is Jesus' Bride. She is holy, pure and clean. Defiled Christians are not in this group. Blessed are they who are called to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. On the other hand, the Saints (Jews and gentiles) mentioned after Chapter 3 are those who get saved during the great tribulation, and have to endure unbelievable hardships, trails, persecution, and even horrible deaths. They will be worthy of great rewards in Heaven.

ewq1938 · Oct 4, 2023

07-07-07 said:

This has always been a false claim. Churches are mentioned in Rev 11, which shows them active during the entire trib.

Lucy-Pevensie · Oct 4, 2023

07-07-07 said:

That isn't consistent. Jesus mentions the Churches extensively in Revelation Chapters 1-3, but He no longer mentions the Churches afterwards but only mentions the Saints. However, and finally, He mentions the Churches again at the end of Revelation.

Revelation 22
[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Why would He now refer to them as Churches and not Saints? So, if the Churches are to endure such extreme hardships and persecutions during the great tribulation, it would be inconsistent and odd to not mention them but only reference the Saints. After all, Revelation is a book that Jesus dictated to John for the Churches, so not mentioning them anymore after Chapter 3 would be inconsistent and odd. This material fact gives credence to the Rapture theory, one that espouses that the Church will be caught up before the great tribulation. This is Jesus' Bride. She is holy, pure and clean. Defiled Christians are not in this group. Blessed are they who are called to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. On the other hand, the Saints (Jews and gentiles) mentioned after Chapter 3 are those who get saved during the great tribulation, and have to endure unbelievable hardships, trails, persecution, and even horrible deaths. They will be worthy of great rewards in Heaven.

Why is there not a reference to the churches in heaven if they are caught up there?

Be careful because you are preaching that there are 2 gospels/ 2 salvations/ 2 churches/ 2 returns of Jesus
All saints are called to the marriage. There is one body. No elite group of "pretribulation Chrisitians" exists.

achduke7 · Oct 4, 2023

isaiah 11:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

07-07-07 · Oct 4, 2023

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Within the Churches are the called, the righteous, the holy and clean. They are in Heaven.

Revelation 7
[9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
[10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Defiled Christians are not pure, clean and holy; they will not be at the Marriage Supper; they won't be granted fine linen for garments, which is the righteousness of the Saints.

Revelation 19
[7] Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
[8] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
[9] And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
[10] And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Zandar · Oct 4, 2023

An early reference to isopsephy, albeit of more-than-usual sophistication (employing multiplication rather than addition), is from the mathematician Apollonius of Perga, writing in the 3rd century BC. He asks: "Given the verse: ΑΡΤΕΜΙΔΟΣ ΚΛΕΙΤΕ ΚΡΑΤΟΣ ΕΞΟΧΟΝ ΕΝΝΕΑ ΚΟΥΡΑΙ ('Nine maidens, praise the glorious power of Artemis'), what does the product of all its elements equal?"[4] More conventional are the instances of isopsephy found in graffiti at Pompeii, dating from around 79 AD. One reads Φιλω ης αριθμος ϕμε, "I love her whose number is 545." Another says, "Amerimnus thought upon his lady Harmonia for good. The number of her honorable name is 45." Suetonius, writing in 121 AD, reports a political slogan that someone wrote on a wall in Rome:
"Nero, Orestes, Alcmeon their mothers slew. A calculation new. Nero his mother slew"
which appears to be another example.[5][6] In Greek, Νερων, Nero, has the numerical value 50+5+100+800+50=1005, the same value as ιδιαν μητερα απεκτεινε (idian metera apekteine) — "He killed his own mother", (10+4+10+1+50) + (40+8+300+5+100+1) + (1+80+5+20+300+5+10+50+5). A famous example is 666 in the Biblical Book of Revelation (13:18): "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." The word rendered "count", ψηφισάτω, psephisato, has the same "pebble" root as the word isopsephy.[7][8] The Greek Neron Kaisar (Nero Caesar in Latin/English) when transliterated into Hebrew gematria equals "six hundred sixty-six".

I thought this was interesting that it would name Neron Kaisar as the name of the beast. (Nero Caesar)

Nehemiah6 · Oct 4, 2023

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Because it is not "churches" which are caught up to Heaven, but the saints of God. So it is "the Church of the firstborn" (the whole Body) which is found in Heaven, although until the Resurrection/Rapture only the saints who have passed on are found there: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and Church of the firstborn, [NT saints] which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect [OT saints]... (Heb 12:22,23)

All these saints will be brought from Heaven by Christ at the Resurrection/Rapture (to receive their glorified bodies), but these saints will PRECEDE the ones who are alive and to be raptured. However this all happens very rapidly so one could say it is the same event "in the twinkling of an eye". And mocking the Pre-Tribulation Rapture does not strengthen your case since that is a divine necessity. But you just don't get it,

Truthnightmare · Oct 4, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Because it is not "churches" which are caught up to Heaven, but the saints of God. So it is "the Church of the firstborn" (the whole Body) which is found in Heaven, although until the Resurrection/Rapture only the saints who have passed on are found there: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and Church of the firstborn, [NT saints] which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect [OT saints]... (Heb 12:22,23)

All these saints will be brought from Heaven by Christ at the Resurrection/Rapture (to receive their glorified bodies), but these saints will PRECEDE the ones who are alive and to be raptured. However this all happens very rapidly so one could say it is the same event "in the twinkling of an eye". And mocking the Pre-Tribulation Rapture does not strengthen your case since that is a divine necessity. But you just don't get it,

Of course the next question would be, when are they caught up, and what scriptures confirm the timing of when you say they are caught up?

Truthnightmare · Oct 4, 2023

07-07-07 said:

But doesn’t Jesus clearly tell the churches to endure?

Revelation 2
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

The church is the body, a multi member body, but still one body.
The saints are part of that body.
Revelation 6

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

These fellowservants and brethren are part of the church.

Revelation 7
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

These are the people who came out of the tribulation, they are part of the church.

Which Bible Verses Will Prepare You for the Post-Tribulation Rapture (and the Great Tribulation Before That?)

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