Is Baptism in water a work or a command? Is it necessary for salvation?

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Cameron143

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Using Romans 1 is a big leap. No NT writers tell us of a "spiritual baptism". I'll trust what they tell me.
Not so. John the Baptist told us. Paul told us. I'm not stretching Romans 1. That's what it says.
Romans 4 speaks of our relationship to Jesus in his death, burial, and resurrection. That didn't happen literally.
 

hornetguy

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That didn't happen literally.
It happens literally, in baptism.
The "old man" dies, is "buried" in the waters of baptism, and is "resurrected" coming up out of the water, to live a new life. Scripture tells us that. Romans 6
 

Cameron143

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It happens literally, in baptism.
The "old man" dies, is "buried" in the waters of baptism, and is "resurrected" coming up out of the water, to live a new life. Scripture tells us that. Romans 6
Water baptism happens literally. It does symbolize or picture what has happened to us. But Christ literally died on a cross, was buried in a tomb, and resurrected the 3rd day. I don't know anyone that is actually true of.
 

turbosixx

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Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord...salvation.
You have salvation too early. Yes, Noah found grace but it was through his faith in building the ark that his faith was made complete. Noah wouldn't have been saved if HE didn't build the ark. Faith that has works.

Looking at your examples, everyone of them did something.
Example, 3 Hebrew children thrown into a furnace. Delivered through the fire.
2 There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the affairs of the province of Babylon: Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. These men, O king, pay no attention to you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.”
Worldwide flood. Delivered through the waters.
7 By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household.
The nation of Israel at the Red Sea. Delivered through the waters.
22 And the people of Israel went into the midst of the sea on dry ground, the waters being a wall to them on their right hand and on their left.
We have to obey God's commandments. Salvation doesn't come without that. Does that mean we earn our salvation, absolutely not. We are merely doing God's will.

Let's look at the outcome of those who left Egypt according to the bible.
Heb. 3:14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?

They did not continue to obey God so they did not enter into the promised land.
 

turbosixx

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Not so. John the Baptist told us. Paul told us. I'm not stretching Romans 1. That's what it says.
Romans 4 speaks of our relationship to Jesus in his death, burial, and resurrection. That didn't happen literally.
No one told us of a "spiritual baptism"
What John the baptist was talking about only happened twice and it was for special specific reasons.
 

Cameron143

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You have salvation too early. Yes, Noah found grace but it was through his faith in building the ark that his faith was made complete. Noah wouldn't have been saved if HE didn't build the ark. Faith that has works.

Looking at your examples, everyone of them did something.
God always calls for a response. Our response demonstrates whether we have faith or not. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Did you notice every action was done because each believed what God said. Faith precedes action. And faith produces action. But God produces faith.
 

Cameron143

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No one told us of a "spiritual baptism"
What John the baptist was talking about only happened twice and it was for special specific reasons.
But He will baptize with fire and the Holy Ghost. Hard to misconstrue that with water.
 

turbosixx

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Did you notice every action was done because each believed what God said. Faith precedes action. And faith produces action. But God produces faith.
Absolutely, I agree with this!

But you didn't address the failed continued action resulting in lose of salvation. Here is another example. God called Moses to lead the Israelites. On his way to Egypt, God is going to kill him because he is not in covenant relationship with God. If his wife (or Moses) hadn't obeyed the commandment, God would have killed him and found another to lead them out.
 

Cameron143

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No one told us of a "spiritual baptism"
What John the baptist was talking about only happened twice and it was for special specific reasons.
I actually covered this with you before. Ephesians 4 speaks of our baptism into Christ. Ephesians 1 is what you find in the book of Acts. It happened more than twice, and is still available to believers. It is little taught, thus, little sought. There is an awesome book by Martyn Lloyd Jones on the subject called Joy Unspeakable.
 

turbosixx

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But He will baptize with fire and the Holy Ghost. Hard to misconstrue that with water.
Baptized with the HS only happened twice and each was a specific special situation. That is not baptism of the HS that I'm told happens to everyone.
 

Cameron143

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Absolutely, I agree with this!

But you didn't address the failed continued action resulting in lose of salvation. Here is another example. God called Moses to lead the Israelites. On his way to Egypt, God is going to kill him because he is not in covenant relationship with God. If his wife (or Moses) hadn't obeyed the commandment, God would have killed him and found another to lead them out.
Was it done? God's people always eventually comply. Why? Because God is the One who keeps His people.
Why do you believe you can keep the law in your own strength after you are saved anymore than you could before you are saved?
 

Cameron143

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Baptized with the HS only happened twice and each was a specific special situation. That is not baptism of the HS that I'm told happens to everyone.
No. They were instructive but not limited. Do you imagine Jesus only did the miracles recorded in the Bible? No. But those recorded were instructive. Same in the book of Acts.

How does water baptism place you into Christ?
 

turbosixx

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I actually covered this with you before. Ephesians 4 speaks of our baptism into Christ. Ephesians 1 is what you find in the book of Acts. It happened more than twice, and is still available to believers. It is little taught, thus, little sought. There is an awesome book by Martyn Lloyd Jones on the subject called Joy Unspeakable.
Eph 1 is talking about being in Christ. What did the Ephesians do to get into Christ.

Let's look at baptized WITH the HS.
Jn. 1:33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Hasn't happened, still future.

Acts 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Still future.

Here we see what baptized with the HS looks like. Acts 2:4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. We see it is directly from God and evident by speaking in tongues.

The next and only other time we see baptism with the HS is here.
Acts 10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God.
Again, directly from God and evident by speaking in tongues.

When Peter later talks about this conversion, notice what he says.
Acts 11:15As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
These two times are the only times we are told "baptized with the HS" and the only two time we see "baptized with the HS". I know of zero times we are told baptism of the HS or "spiritual baptism" and zero time I see it.
 

Cameron143

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Eph 1 is talking about being in Christ. What did the Ephesians do to get into Christ.

Let's look at baptized WITH the HS.
Jn. 1:33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Hasn't happened, still future.

Acts 1:5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Still future.

Here we see what baptized with the HS looks like. Acts 2:4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance. We see it is directly from God and evident by speaking in tongues.

The next and only other time we see baptism with the HS is here.
Acts 10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God.
Again, directly from God and evident by speaking in tongues.

When Peter later talks about this conversion, notice what he says.
Acts 11:15As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
These two times are the only times we are told "baptized with the HS" and the only two time we see "baptized with the HS". I know of zero times we are told baptism of the HS or "spiritual baptism" and zero time I see it.
How is someone placed into Christ?
 
Nov 15, 2023
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Everything I am about to say rests of these Scriptures.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Acts 2:37-41 is a passage in the Book of Acts that describes the conversion of a large number of people to Christianity following Peter's Pentecost sermon. The passage begins with the people being "cut to the heart" after hearing Peter's sermon, which they realized convicted them of their sins. They then asked Peter and the other apostles what they should do. Peter responded by telling them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. He also promised them that they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Those who gladly received Peter's word were baptized, and on that day about 3,000 souls were added to the church. This passage is significant because it shows how the early church grew rapidly in the weeks and months following Jesus's ascension into heaven. It also highlights the importance of repentance and baptism in the Christian faith.

Here is a breakdown of the passage:

Acts 2:37

This verse describes the reaction of the people to Peter's sermon. They were "cut to the heart" by his words, which means that they were deeply moved and convicted by them. This is a common reaction to the preaching of the gospel, as it exposes people's sin and need for salvation.

Acts 2:38

This verse records the people's question to Peter and the other apostles. They asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" This shows that they were open to changing their ways and following Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:39

Peter's response to the people's question is a summary of the gospel message. He told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Repentance is a turning away from sin, and baptism is a symbolic washing away of sin.

Acts 2:40

Peter continued his explanation of the gospel by telling the people that they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is sent to dwell in the hearts of believers. He empowers them to live for Christ and to share the gospel with others.

Acts 2:41

This verse describes the response of those who gladly received Peter's word. They were baptized, and on that day about 3,000 souls were added to the church. This is a remarkable number of conversions, and it shows how the early church was growing rapidly.
The passage concludes with Peter and the other apostles continuing to preach the gospel and teach the new converts. The church continued to grow and spread throughout the world.
The believing criminal on the cross was not baptized. Baptism is just a sign of the person's faith or of a baby's parents' faith declaring Jesus' cleansing power.
 

Cameron143

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So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
Three thousand souls were added to the church. I'm asking how is someone placed into Christ? What is the operation that takes place and who is performing it?
 

turbosixx

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Three thousand souls were added to the church. I'm asking how is someone placed into Christ? What is the operation that takes place and who is performing it?
The operation is believe and be baptized and then be added. Who added them is a good question. This verse doesn't tell us but a few verses later does.
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
 

Cameron143

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The operation is believe and be baptized and then be added. Who added them is a good question. This verse doesn't tell us but a few verses later does.
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Right. Being placed in Christ is a work of God, not man. It is a spiritual activity. Being placed in water is a physical activity. It is the work of men. So we aren't really arguing between the work of God and the work of men. We are arguing what comes first.
In every one of the examples I shared, faith proceeded works. Why is this not true of baptism?
 

turbosixx

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Right. Being placed in Christ is a work of God, not man. It is a spiritual activity. Being placed in water is a physical activity. It is the work of men. So we aren't really arguing between the work of God and the work of men. We are arguing what comes first.
In every one of the examples I shared, faith proceeded works. Why is this not true of baptism?
I agree faith always proceeds works. We are on the same page at this point.

As for baptism, it's not an outward showing of an inward change as some claim.
It's how:
-we are added to Christ
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.


- our sins are washed away
16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name.’

- we are united in death with Christ
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death

- how we are resurrected with Christ
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,


- we are circumcised by Christ
11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism,

Baptism is an appeal to God for a good conscience.
—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—
Does the bible tell us there is any other way to appeal to God? Sinners prayer? Ask Jesus into your heart?