Lost salvation or name not in the book

My advice is that you not focus on your experiences of answers to your prayers or any other way. God gives four answers to prayer: no, yes, not the way you thought, and not yet. Sometimes, it takes years of prayers that you know are God's will before he answers in his own time. We Christians in our fast-food culture sometimes expect instant answers. It's like the dog's tail trying to wag the dog. Sometimes, God wants us to learn patient persistence in prayer. I regard to your other topic, no one knows the day or the hour of Jesus' return. Once saved, always saved--a clear teaching of Scripture!

Individual Apostasy

Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

Apostasy (Gk apostasia) appears twice in the NT as a noun (Ac 21:21; 2Th 2:3). But here in Heb 3:12 it

is used as a verb (Gk aphistemi, meaning to "turn away"). The Greek term literally means "standing

away" from God, and it relates to spiritual rebellion, abandonment, withdrawal or turning from what

one has previously believed and experienced in a relationship with Christ. It typically involves denying

once sincere faith, disowning Jesus and abandoning the body of Christ (i.e., the church community), although some who have turned their backs on a relationship with Christ may still pretend to be part of the church. Apostasy is the consequence of a willing and deliberate choice in "departing from the living God" (3:12).



(1) To apostatize means to break off from one's saving relationship with Christ or to withdraw from

union with and faith in him (see article on FAITH AND GRACE, p. 2127). For this reason, individual

apostasy (as differentiated from a group, church, people or nation rejecting God) is possible only for

those who have first experienced God's forgiveness and been spiritually "born again" (Jn 3:3-7) and

renewed through a personal relationship with Christ (cf. Lk 8:13; 6:4-5; 10:29). Apostasy is not simply a

denial of NT belief and teaching by those in the church who do not truly have a personal relationship with Christ. In fact, apostasy may involve two separate but related stages of rejection: (a) theological apostasy, which is a rejection of all or some of the original teachings of Christ and those used by God to write his Word (1Ti 4:1; 2Ti 4:3) and (b) moral apostasy, which involves a former believer willingly breaking away from a personal relationship with Christ and becoming spiritually enslaved again to sin and its lifestyle (Isa 29:13; Mt 23:25-28; Ro 6:15-23; 8:6-13)



(2) The Christian faith is primarily about relationship to and companionship with God. The Bible speaks of God as the Father, Jesus Christ as the Son and those who accept Christ by faith as God's family and children (Ro 8:14-17). This means that spiritual salvation through faith in Christ is personal,relational and requires our individual response. God's grace (i.e., his unearned and undeserved favor, love and spiritual enablement)- made available through the personal sacrifice of Christ-is enough to forgive and save us spiritually and to sustain our relationship with God. In Jesus' illustration about the vine and the branches (Jn 15:1-8), the believer (BRANCH) who remains united in relationship with Christ (VINE) is spiritually secure and has life. However, if that believer becomes spiritually rebellious or faithless toward God and chooses to break from his or her grace-union with Christ, then he or she becomes cut off from the source of life. A person who remains in this condition will, in the end, lose

the privilege of living eternally in the presence of God, just as one who never accepted Christ (cf.

In 15:6).





(3) The Bible gives urgent warnings about this serious and sobering possibility. These warnings are designed both to alert us to the deadly danger of abandoning our union with Christ and to motivate us to remain faithful and obedient to him. We must not ignore or treat lightly God's purpose for these warnings and develop the attitude that says, "the warnings are real, but the possibility of actual apostasy is not." Rather, we must take these warnings seriously, realizing that they apply in a very real sense to how we use our time on earth until we receive our full, complete and final salvation in eternity with God. A few of the many NT passages that warn us are: Mt 24:4-5, 11-13; Lk 12:46; Jn 15:1-6; 14:21-22; Ro 11:17-21; 1Co 15:1-2; Col 1:23; 1Ti 4:1, 16; 6:10-12; 2Ti 4:2-5; Heb 2:1-3; 3:7-19; 4:1, 6-7; 6:4-9; 10:26-31; 12:25; Jas 5:19-20; 2Pe 1:10; 2:20-22; 1Jn 2:23-25.



(4) Examples of actual apostasy can be found in Ex 32; 2Ki 17:7-23; Ps 106; Isa 1:2-4; Jer 2:1-9; Ac 1:25;

Gal 5:4; 1Ti 1:18-20; 2Pe 2:1, 15, 20-22; Jude 1:4, 11-13; see article on THE AGE OF THE ANTICHRIST,

P.2351, for comments on apostasy predicted to occur within the church in the last days before Christ returns to take the faithful in his churches from the world.



(5) The steps that lead to apostasy are as follows:

with him through faith in Christ-become spiritually unconcerned, resistant or outright rebellious.

a) Believers-those who have accepted God's forgiveness and entered a personal relationship

These individuals show their unbelief by failing to take seriously all of the truths, challenges, warnings, promises and teachings of God's Word (Mk 1:15; Lk 8:13; Jn 5:44, 47; 8:46).

(b) If the realities and desires of the world become a higher priority than the realities and desires of God's kingdom and purposes, then believers gradually cease to recognize and experience

Companionship with God through Christ (Heb 4:16; 7:19, 25; 11:6).

(c) Because of the deceitfulness of sin (i.e., anything that offends or defies God or falls short of

standard), believers become increasingly tolerant of sin in their own lives (1Co 6:9-10; Eph 5:5; Heb 3:13). They no longer love what is right and hate what is wrong (see Heb 1:9, note).



(d) Their hearts become spiritually hardened (Heb 3:8, 13), resistant and unresponsive to God.

Eventually, they openly reject his way (3:10), ignoring the repeated inner voice and rebuke of the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30; 1Th 5:19-22)



(e) The Holy Spirit becomes grieved (Eph 4:30; cf. Heb 3:7-8), his fire is put out (1Th 5:19) and his

temple (i.e., the person's body and life) is violated (1Co 3:16). As a result, the Holy Spirit eventually

departs from the believer's life (Jdg 16:20; Ps 51:11; Ro 8:13; 1Co 3:16-17; Heb 3:14).



(6) If spiritual "backsliding" (i.e., neglecting or abandoning one's faith and personal relationship

with Christ) continues on its course without change, individuals may eventually reach the point where no new beginning is possible. That is to say, they will not be able to start over and renew their faith in God because no one is able to do this on their own apart from God's grace and the power of his Holy Spirit.

(a) Those who once had a saving experience with Christ but deliberately and continually harden their hearts to the Spirit's voice (Heb 3:7-19), continue to sin willfully (Heb 10:26) and refuse to turn from their own way back to God may reach a point of no return where repentance and salvation are no longer possible (Heb 6:4-6; see Dt 29:18-21, note; 1Sa 2:25, note; Pr 29:1, note). There is a limit to God's patience (see 1Sa 3:11-14; Mt 12:31-32; 2Th 2:9-11; Heb 10:26-29, 31; 1Jn 5:16).

(b) This point of no return cannot be defined in advance. The only safeguard against the danger of ultimate (i.e., full and final) apostasy is to take this warning seriously: "Today, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts" (Heb 3:7-8, 15; 4:7).



(7) It must be emphasized that while spiritual backsliding is a danger for all who drift from faith in

Christ (Heb 2:1-3) and turn away from God (6:6), ultimate apostasy resulting in the hopeless condition described in the previous point does not occur without constant and deliberate resistance against the Holy Spirit (see Mt 12:31, note on sin against the Holy Spirit). Just as we are not saved by our own works and efforts, but by God's grace (see Eph 2:8-9; Tit 3:5), neither are we fully condemned to separation from God by our actions alone (although we will be judged by them; 2Co 5:10). People are saved spiritually by accepting God's grace and putting their faith in Christ; and people are condemned spiritually by rejecting (or simply not accepting) God's grace and refusing to put their faith in Christ (cf. 12:15, 25; Ac 19:19; 2Th 2:10; Rev 16:9). Refusing to have faith in God can be expressed in several ways, including refusing to believe in God, refusing to rely on God, refusing to take God at his Word, refusing to admit the wrongness of our own way, refusing to accept God's way of spiritual salvation through Christ alone and refusing to accept God's help and involvement in our lives. A person who

allows his or her heart to become hardened or rebellious toward God by refusing him in any of these ways is in serious danger of rejecting God permanently (3:12).



(8) Some who reject their faith and abandon a true relationship with God (Heb 3:12) may still think

they are Christians. However, their spiritual neglect and unconcern toward the demands of Christ, the

inner voice of the Holy Spirit and the warnings of Scripture prove that they are in rebellion against

God. Because of this possibility of self-deception, Paul urges all those claiming to be spiritually saved

to "examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2Co 13:5, note).



(9) Those who genuinely become concerned about their spiritual condition and have a desire to

return to God in true repentance (i.e., changing one's attitude toward God, admitting sin, turning from one's own way and submitting to God) can be sure that they have not committed the unforgivable

sin (cf. Mk 3:29), or ultimate apostasy. God's Word clearly affirms that he does not want anyone to

perish or be spiritually lost and separated from him for eternity (2Pe 3:9; cf. Isa 1:18-19; 55:6-7). In fact,

the heavenly Father will joyfully receive any wayward, rebellious or lost child who truly repents and returns to him (compare Gal 5:4 with 4:19; 1Co 5:1-5 with 2Co 2:5-11; see also Lk 15:11-24; Ro 11:20-23; Jas 5:19-20; Rev 3:14-20; note the example of Peter, Mt 16:16; 26:74-75; Jn 21:15-22).

I posted this earlier but I think it got lost in all the machine gun fire so I am posting again, and adding a few comments...

I am not as biblically fluent as so many of you are so please don't hesitate to correct me if I come up short.

Before Christ we all live in sin. In fact, we cannot even recognize sin. A perfect example of this is how all our cultures embrace sin and call sin good.

Then we find Christ, or are called to Christ. We pray for forgiveness and accept Jesus as Lord.

Then we receive the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit opens our eyes to sin. We can now recognize it. In fact, it becomes so painfully obvious we have trouble understanding why the world can't see it even though we were just like them.

Now we have an obligation to resist the sin within ourselves. This is where things get complicated because we are never really free from sins influence. Because we do fail.

Just because we cannot stop sinning, we cannot justify sin. We cannot say, it is okay to sin because now we are saved. Instead, we must go to the cross. We must confess our sins, admitting they are sins, and ask for forgiveness and help with the struggle even though it is a struggle that will not end until we are in our resurrection bodies.

I think an understanding of sin goes way way way beyond a narrow interpretation of the 10 commandments.

For example:

Loving God IS loving your neighbor. Loving God IS loving that which is good. Loving God IS being obedient to His Word among so many other things.

Loving your neighbor IS feeding them, clothing them, housing them, instructing them, correcting them, and worshiping with them among so many other things.

One time I turned my back on a woman asking for help. I had become hardened and accustomed to aggressive beggars who just wanted free cigarettes and alcohol and so my defense mechanism was to reject such approaches outright. Then I came to realize the woman, and her infant child, truly, desperately, needed help. I will never forget how badly I failed not only her but God as well. Another person stepped up where I failed but that doesn't excuse me. That is what sin looks like.

Sexual sin, greed, lying, leading others to sin, etc. It's not just some nebulous concepts. Sins is an activity that brings harm, to yourself, your community, the world, to God. Thats what makes it sin.

My hang up is not whether or not I sin, it's whether or not I am on the list to be saved. I know the common concept is to define "saved" as an attribute that applies today. I don't see it that way. I see it as what happens after your body perishes. You are either saved and recreated from Gods mind or not. Judgement is another matter. I do not believe that judgement means that we all stand before a court with God sitting at the Judges bench. I believe judgement is already determined, and all perish as a result, only salvation is in question.

I do believe the population of people that will be restored from the grave will be a lot smaller than many believe. It's the Lord Jesus's party and He gets to decide, by His wisdom, who is on the grace list.

Like my previous comments regarding the Holy Spirit. I believe my eyes were opened in a way that only Gods spirit can do. My concern is that I have become dissatisfied with certain aspects of my Relationship with God. It has brought into question if I was ever really inhabited by the Spirit or it was just wishful thinking. I "believe" it happened but there has to be more than talking to silence. That is not a relationship, it is being alone.

Thanks everybody for all your responses, the positive ones, the harsh ones, and all those in between. It's great sharing thoughts with people who have a Christian faith perspective.

I am grateful for all the responses to my concerns. Many

I posted this earlier but I think it got lost in all the machine gun fire so I am posting again, and adding a few comments...

I am not as biblically fluent as so many of you are so please don't hesitate to correct me if I come up short.

Before Christ we all live in sin. In fact, we cannot even recognize sin. A perfect example of this is how all our cultures embrace sin and call sin good.

Then we find Christ, or are called to Christ. We pray for forgiveness and accept Jesus as Lord.

Then we receive the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit opens our eyes to sin. We can now recognize it. In fact, it becomes so painfully obvious we have trouble understanding why the world can't see it even though we were just like them.

Now we have an obligation to resist the sin within ourselves. This is where things get complicated because we are never really free from sins influence. Because we do fail.

Just because we cannot stop sinning, we cannot justify sin. We cannot say, it is okay to sin because now we are saved. Instead, we must go to the cross. We must confess our sins, admitting they are sins, and ask for forgiveness and help with the struggle even though it is a struggle that will not end until we are in our resurrection bodies.

I think an understanding of sin goes way way way beyond a narrow interpretation of the 10 commandments.

For example:

Loving God IS loving your neighbor. Loving God IS loving that which is good. Loving God IS being obedient to His Word among so many other things.

Loving your neighbor IS feeding them, clothing them, housing them, instructing them, correcting them, and worshiping with them among so many other things.

One time I turned my back on a woman asking for help. I had become hardened and accustomed to aggressive beggars who just wanted free cigarettes and alcohol and so my defense mechanism was to reject such approaches outright. Then I came to realize the woman, and her infant child, truly, desperately, needed help. I will never forget how badly I failed not only her but God as well. Another person stepped up where I failed but that doesn't excuse me. That is what sin looks like.

Sexual sin, greed, lying, leading others to sin, etc. It's not just some nebulous concepts. Sins is an activity that brings harm, to yourself, your community, the world, to God. Thats what makes it sin.

My hang up is not whether or not I sin, it's whether or not I am on the list to be saved. I know the common concept is to define "saved" as an attribute that applies today. I don't see it that way. I see it as what happens after your body perishes. You are either saved and recreated from Gods mind or not. Judgement is another matter. I do not believe that judgement means that we all stand before a court with God sitting at the Judges bench. I believe judgement is already determined, and all perish as a result, only salvation is in question.

I do believe the population of people that will be restored from the grave will be a lot smaller than many believe. It's the Lord Jesus's party and He gets to decide, by His wisdom, who is on the grace list.

Like my previous comments regarding the Holy Spirit. I believe my eyes were opened in a way that only Gods spirit can do. My concern is that I have become dissatisfied with certain aspects of my Relationship with God. It has brought into question if I was ever really inhabited by the Spirit or it was just wishful thinking. I "believe" it happened but there has to be more than talking to silence. That is not a relationship, it is being alone.

Thanks everybody for all your responses, the positive ones, the harsh ones, and all those in between. It's great sharing thoughts with people who have a Christian faith perspective.

I am grateful for all the responses to my concerns. Many

I am not as biblically fluent as so many of you are so please don't hesitate to correct me if I come up short...My hang up is not whether or not I sin, it's whether or not I am on the list to be saved.

Hi Everybody,

Sorry if I posted this in the wrong section. I am new here. The thing that brought me to a Christian forum is to explore some ideas regarding Christian faith and salvation. In particular, how do you know you are saved? Can you believe in God, believe that Jesus is the Messiah and be respectful towards God and yet not have your name in the book of life?

The thing that has me asking is, in the past I felt like my connection to God was validated through prayer. I would pray, then events would occur, usually never in the way I expected, that would bring me to what I believe was a God driven outcome.

Additionally, I felt like I saw the world in a way that only a Christian could and I thought that was through the eyes of the Holy Spirit.

Now, it seems like I pray and the answer is dead silence. I am not even sure the Spirit is there. Maybe my name is not in the book of life. I have been the grateful recipient of some wonderful gifts but God can bless the saved and unsaved as He chooses. Plus, I have shamefully shared some frustrated, angry words with God. I'm sure He wasn't too happy about that.

I have never been end times focused, beyond basic curiosity, but assumed the time of Christs return would be well past my lifetime. Given the state of current events, and I'm not just referring to war in Israel, I'm not so sure any more. Things seem different today, in a very bad way, and I have never felt so disconnected from God. Perhaps I have fallen from His favor or perhaps I was never really saved to begin with. I believe there will be lots of people who will be surprised to find out their name isn't on the list.

Interested in your thoughts on this topic. Thanks!

Now, it seems like I pray and the answer is dead silence. I am not even sure the Spirit is there. Maybe my name is not in the book of life. I have been the grateful recipient of some wonderful gifts but God can bless the saved and unsaved as He chooses. Plus, I have shamefully shared some frustrated, angry words with God. I'm sure He wasn't too happy about that.