The Apostleship Of Paul...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#61
Sep 2, 2020
14,175
5,727
113
#61
SilverFox7 said:
And that's just it my friend: Paul received revelation directly from Jesus, and he passed those revelations on to others--the Gentiles as his main target audience/mission.

We can only handle so much power and "revelations" as humans. Our pride becomes out of control, and we think we are special when we're "on top of the world." But, as Paul noted, we need to remain humble. That "thorn in the flesh" was painful, and Paul prayed for God to remove it, but God told Paul, My grace is sufficient for you. Exaltation needs to be tempered with humility, and we need to continually look to God for that grace and meekness we need to live as Jesus desires.

It's interesting that Jesus spoke directly to Paul (Saul at that time) in that remarkable encounter on Paul's trip to Damascus to ramp up his persecution of the church:

Acts 9:4

King James Version

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

The encounter was so profound that Paul was blinded for three days, perhaps from the light that "...shone around him from heaven" (v. 3). This was a powerful conversion experience where Jesus took a Jewish pharisaic persecutor of the church and transformed him into one of the most influential leaders of the Christian faith! Paul's writings have impacted millions perhaps billions of people down to our current age--amazing what our God can accomplish through us if we have that humble and willing commitment to serving the needs of the gospel!
Click to expand...
indeed paul was the leader of the gentile ministry a treasure in scripture

The gospel was first required to be preached only to israel that’s why Jesus and his apostles preached only to israel before he died

After he died he sent them to preach the gospel to everyone for instance Peter also was sent by god to gentiles when he gave him the dream of all creatires being made clean to god then Peter preached Jesus and the gospel to them they believed and received the Holy Ghost and all got baptized

peter was an apostle of Jesus who preached the gospel to gentiles and they all received the spirit too

“And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:7-9, 11‬ ‭

The idea of differing doctrine for Jews and another for gentiles is the only reason I posted in this thread . Paul is an official important apostle but he’s an apostle like the rest he did focus on gentiles infact it became his joy and crown to be an apostle to the gentiles “

I have no issues with that part it’s the idea paul preached a different gospel to gentiles the gospel never changes the audience was simply expanded from Israel to all nations
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#62
Sep 2, 2020
14,175
5,727
113
#62
SilverFox7 said:
This reminds me of Jeremiah's calling and special ministry as well...

Jeremiah 1:5

King James Version

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

One of Paul's greatest attributes was zeal. As a Pharisee, he zealously persecuted the church because he felt that was what he was supposed to be doing to suppress a threat to his faith and religion. That zeal carried over into Paul's apostleship--he zealously preached the gospel and sacrificed himself to serve God and His people.
Click to expand...
I love when Paul eas beaten nearly to death for preaching …..then later he was seen preaching again in the same area

we have a distorted idea of what life was for them because of the modernity in the western world. I love reading Paul’s personal notes about life for them then

the apostles and early church were true Christian warriors

“For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; and labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:9, 11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The early church was slaughtered by rome imprisoned burned alive soaked in oiled linens on Nero’s garden posts they were thrown to wild starving animals, seated on glowing iron chairs ripped apart by dogs and lions slain with the sword ect

they ledt thier normal lives to go forth everywhere preaching gods word healing raising up dead boys even thier shadows passing one people healed them

it would be hard not to leave your whole life with the kingdom flourishing like that everywhere but they were scourges of the earth Ho else’s beaten spectacles dressed in rags and full of hunger

awe have such a distorted view now of it seems like everything
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#64
Jul 24, 2016
7,585
3,616
113
#64
Question...

When did the Apostles select Matthias as the replacement for Judas?

Before the day of Pentecost when they received the Holy Spirit.. ?

Or after the day of Pentecost when they recieved the Holy Spirit.. ?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#65
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#65
Magenta said:
Paul wrote about 28% of the New Testament.
Click to expand...
Really? Kindly check this out:
TOTAL BOOKS IN NT = 27
PAUL'S EPISTLES = 14
14/27 = 51.85%

You need to brush up on your math.
 
T

Ted01

Well-known member
#66
May 14, 2022
1,055
447
83
#66
Nehemiah6 said:
Really? Kindly check this out:
TOTAL BOOKS IN NT = 27
PAUL'S EPISTLES = 14
14/27 = 51.85%

You need to brush up on your math.
Click to expand...
That's the math by number of books... I think that the 28% is the math of going by word count.
 
P

presidente

Senior Member
#67
May 29, 2013
9,164
1,794
113
#67
Paul appointed 12 apostles. Judas sinned and fell. Matthias replaced him.

Paul did not fit the requirements Peter laid out for being one of the 12 since he was not with the 11 from the time of John the Baptist.

According to Ephesians 4, Christ ascended and gave gifts, including apostles, unto men. Paul was one of the post-asecension aposltes. Others included or may have included Barnabas (Acts 13:2; 14:4, 14:14; I Corinthians 9:6) , Apollos (I Corinthians 4:6,9), Silvanus and Timothy (I Thessalonians 1:1; 2:6-7). These are individuals whose names are mentioned specifically.
 
P

presidente

Senior Member
#68
May 29, 2013
9,164
1,794
113
#68
GRACE_ambassador said:
"unlike Paul, Matthias, was never heard of again. After his selection to be the twelfth apostle he is never mentioned again in Scripture.
Click to expand...
Being heard of again in scripture was not a criteria for being one of the 12. Read the passage.

Where is Bartholemew mentioned again in scripture? How about Simon Zealotes?
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#69
Jul 3, 2015
60,322
29,573
113
#69
Nehemiah6 said:
Really? Kindly check this out:
TOTAL BOOKS IN NT = 27
PAUL'S EPISTLES = 14
14/27 = 51.85%

You need to brush up on your math.
Click to expand...
Yes, really. Based on the word counts of the 1769 edition of KJV from Bible stats, here’s how it works out:

BOOK . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . WORDS

Romans . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9422 words
1 Corinthians . . . . . . . . . . 9462 words
2 Corinthians . . . . . . . . . . 6046 words
Galatians . . . . . . . . . . . . . .3084 words
Ephesians . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3022 words
Philippians . . . . . . . . . . . . 2183 words
Colossians . . . . . . . . . . . . .1979 words
1 Thessalonians . . . . . . . 1837 words
2 Thessalonians . . . . . . . 1022 words
1 Timothy . . . . . . . . . . . . . .2244 words
2 Timothy . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1666 words
Titus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .896 words
Philemon . . . . . . . . . . . . . .430 words
Hebrews . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .6897 words

Total words written by Paul: 50,190 words. Total words in the New Testament: 179,011

So Paul wrote 50190/179011 or 28% of the NT. source

This even includes Hebrews, which is generally considered of unknown authorship,
so 28% is a fairly generous account/amount. Your method leaves much to be desired.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#70
Jul 3, 2015
60,322
29,573
113
#70
Ted01 said:
That's the math by number of books... I think that the 28% is the math of going by word count.
Click to expand...
Thank you, Ted. Word count is what counts for volume %, after all, NOT number of books.
 
SilverFox7

SilverFox7

Well-known member
#72
Dec 24, 2022
677
426
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
#72
Pilgrimshope said:
I love when Paul eas beaten nearly to death for preaching …..then later he was seen preaching again in the same area

we have a distorted idea of what life was for them because of the modernity in the western world. I love reading Paul’s personal notes about life for them then

the apostles and early church were true Christian warriors

“For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; and labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭4:9, 11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The early church was slaughtered by rome imprisoned burned alive soaked in oiled linens on Nero’s garden posts they were thrown to wild starving animals, seated on glowing iron chairs ripped apart by dogs and lions slain with the sword ect

they ledt thier normal lives to go forth everywhere preaching gods word healing raising up dead boys even thier shadows passing one people healed them

it would be hard not to leave your whole life with the kingdom flourishing like that everywhere but they were scourges of the earth Ho else’s beaten spectacles dressed in rags and full of hunger

awe have such a distorted view now of it seems like everything
Click to expand...
I have been a Christian for 35+ years, and I still haven't learned to rejoice in suffering. It just shows how weak I am compared with Paul and the early church disciples.

Colossians 1:24

King James Version

24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

I just have a hard time comprehending this, brother, and maybe it's because I've never had to face intense persecution for Christ, who provides the grace and strength we need to endure and actually rejoice. Look at Paul's attitude: he found joy in his suffering for the church and "the afflictions of Christ", and Paul refers to the church as the body of Christ. When one member suffers, all the other members suffer as well.

Acts 5:41

King James Version

41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

Unbelievable from a human standpoint. Have you reached this level of maturity yet, Pilgrim, where you rejoice when you suffer and face persecution for Jesus?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#73
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,777
113
#73
Magenta said:
Total words written by Paul: 50,190 words. Total words in the New Testament: 179,011
Click to expand...
What a bunch of nonsense. Nobody goes by word count (other than those who have to have the last word). And you probably forgot to exclude the words in italics in the KJV.
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#74
Sep 2, 2020
14,175
5,727
113
#74
SilverFox7 said:
And that's just it my friend: Paul received revelation directly from Jesus, and he passed those revelations on to others--the Gentiles as his main target audience/mission.

We can only handle so much power and "revelations" as humans. Our pride becomes out of control, and we think we are special when we're "on top of the world." But, as Paul noted, we need to remain humble. That "thorn in the flesh" was painful, and Paul prayed for God to remove it, but God told Paul, My grace is sufficient for you. Exaltation needs to be tempered with humility, and we need to continually look to God for that grace and meekness we need to live as Jesus desires.

It's interesting that Jesus spoke directly to Paul (Saul at that time) in that remarkable encounter on Paul's trip to Damascus to ramp up his persecution of the church:

Acts 9:4

King James Version

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

The encounter was so profound that Paul was blinded for three days, perhaps from the light that "...shone around him from heaven" (v. 3). This was a powerful conversion experience where Jesus took a Jewish pharisaic persecutor of the church and transformed him into one of the most influential leaders of the Christian faith! Paul's writings have impacted millions perhaps billions of people down to our current age--amazing what our God can accomplish through us if we have that humble and willing commitment to serving the needs of the gospel!
Click to expand...
SilverFox7 said:
Amen is all I have to add to this one, brother!
Click to expand...
im rubber your glue every amen returns to you
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#75
Jul 3, 2015
60,322
29,573
113
#75
Nehemiah6 said:
What a bunch of nonsense. Nobody goes by word count (other than those who have to have the last word). And you probably forgot to exclude the words in italics in the KJV.
Click to expand...
Why would italicized words matter if word count counts for nothing? Your comments make no sense and are actually contradictory. Pretending as you do that one set of numbers matter while another does not is just plain stupid. By volume, Paul wrote 28% of the new testament despite your irrelevant method of counting and total lack of good sense.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#76
Mar 1, 2022
19,318
6,645
113
62
#76
Magenta said:
Why would italicized words matter if word count counts for nothing? Your comments make no sense and are actually contradictory. Pretending as you do that one set of numbers matter while another does not is just plain stupid. By volume, Paul wrote 28% of the new testament despite your irrelevant method of counting and total lack of good sense.
Click to expand...
How many words would a word counter count if a word counter was used to count words?
 
SilverFox7

SilverFox7

Well-known member
#77
Dec 24, 2022
677
426
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
#77
Adstar said:
Question...

When did the Apostles select Matthias as the replacement for Judas?

Before the day of Pentecost when they received the Holy Spirit.. ?

Or after the day of Pentecost when they recieved the Holy Spirit.. ?
Click to expand...
Great and important question, and I was involved in an in-depth Bible study with a couple of my missionary friends on this topic.

Matthias was selected as the replacement to Judas just prior to the Day of Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 1: 20 - Acts 2: 4).

After prayer and seeking Jesus' intervention on who should be selected, they cast lots, "...and the lot fell on Matthias" (v. 26).

What stood out to me is the use of lots to make this decision. After the Holy Spirit came, the use of casting lots was no longer necessary for the church. The Holy Spirit is the one who guides those type of decisions on and after Pentecost.

I know there is some debate on this issue, but it appears that Matthias along with the other original 11 disciples are the ones who will judge the 12 tribes of Israel when Jesus returns:

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them,Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The apostle Paul will certainly serve in an important role within the Kingdom as well, but I don't think he will be included among the twelve listed in the verse above. Matthias replaced Judas.
 
I

Inquisitor

Well-known member
#80
Mar 17, 2022
2,979
871
113
#80
Magenta said:
Thank you, Ted. Word count is what counts for volume %, after all, NOT number of books.
Click to expand...
I do think it is better, to clarify this issue.

There is no question that Paul defined the gospel of Jesus Christ, in detail.

Paul explained the Christian life, also in detail.

Paul listed Church doctrine, in detail.

No other author in the New Testament provided any detail about our salvation.

The book of Revelation is a huge letter, lots of words. The book of Revelation is not a primary source of Christian doctrine.
Rather, the book of Revelation pertains to future events.

Mere word count in the New Testament actually is a distraction.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.