The Commandments of God (according to scripture)

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Dec 13, 2023
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#21
1 Thess. 5:19~~Do not quench the Spirit,

Eph 4:30~~Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Eph 5:18~~And do not get drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

Gal 5:16~~But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Rom 8~~ 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
All great verses and if you continue in Romans 8 is shows us what the carnal mind looks like, which would not be walking in His Spirit and what we are warned about, do not grieve the Holy Spirit who pleas with us not to be in rebellion to God Hebrews 3:7-8 just like many of the Israelites who broke God's commandments and did not enter into Canaan- we are not to follow their same path of disobedience Hebrews 4:11

Romans 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh(sin) but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh (sin) set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
Dec 13, 2023
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#22
@SabbathBlessing Who has bewitched you?

1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
No we can't work our way in heaven and the law in reference here is circumcision if one wanted to read in its proper context. The Jews were trying to make Gentile Christians receive circumcision for salvation, the apostles were teaching the Galatians they did not need to be circumcised for salvation. Let me add the context ... Chapter 3 is a continuation of Chapter 2

Gal 2:1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up [a]by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God [b]shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, [c]Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.

11 Now when [d]Peter had come to Antioch, I [e]withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing [f]those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, [g]why do you compel Gentiles to live as [h]Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not [i]justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died [j]in

The works of the law Paul is referring to is the ceremonial law, circumcision, not the Ten Commandments. We can't work our way into heaven by keeping any law, we keep God's law through love and faith and it is an outward reflection that we have been changed inside by Jesus Christ. We are only saved by the blood of Christ through faith but those with faith keep God's commandments Romans 3:31 Rev 14:12 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 because they believe the teachings of Jesus and the example He gave us of how a righteous person lives. John 15:10 Luke 4:16 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-9 Mark 7:7-8 Mat 19:17-19

Paul makes it pretty clear the law for circumcision doesn't matter, but what does matter is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19
 
Dec 13, 2023
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#23
“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

‬‬
There are a lot of scriptures not in their full context, or doesn’t delete what Jesus taught clearly about keeping our rules over the commanemnt of God quoting from the Ten Mark 7:7-8 Mat 15:3-9

I’ll address this one very misused scripture that no one ever seems to carefully study the context to ensure we are receiving the Truth from Pauls writings as we are warned he is hard to understand and many misuse his teachings 2 Peter 3:16 …

Paul is clear which sabbath(s) he is referring to as there are more than one Sabbath in scriptures- the sabbath(s) contained in ordinances that came after sin and not the Sabbath commandment, that defines what sin is when broken Romans 7:7 Mat 5:19-30

Yes, he was clear, the sabbath(s) in ordinances handwritten by Moses which the context is in verse 14 Co 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

No one ever quotes this because they want to stay in darkness instead of coming to God's Truth. All of God’s commanemnts are Truth Psa 119:151

The Sabbath is a commandment of God, not a suggestion, finger written personally by our Lord and Savior that is holy and blessed and God said "Remember" because He knew everyone would forget. Once God blesses something as He did the Sabbath day, man cannot reverse. Num 23:20 No one in scripture could reverse why does man insists against the will of God? Isa 56:6, Mark 2:27 Isa 66:22-23
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#25
Pastors
I believe you might misunderstand what I am saying. The way of salvation is not law keeping, if it were, we could save ourselves, but we can't, we are saved only by the blood of Christ though faith. Keeping God's law is a result of faith. Those in Christ are keeping God's law, it's the carnal mind that has not been changed by Jesus that is hostile to God's law as they do not walk in faith, but in sin. Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Jesus came to save us from our sins, Mat 1:21, not in sin. Through Jesus He wants to change us from the inside out and as He taught not only is it a sin to break the least of the Ten Commandments and gives two as an example, He applies it to our thoughts and feelings and doesn't even want us to think about sinning (breaking God's law) as we would be in fear of sin and judgement. Mat 5:19-30

While it may be hard to overcome sin, all things are possible through Christ. The Ten Commandments are like a mirror, they show us our sins Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7 so we don't cover them as covering them is dangerous because if we do not see our sin we won't see our need for Jesus to help us to forgive and forsake when we repent and confess and therefore won't receive His mercy and grace. Proverbs 28:13 1 John 1:9

The devil has deceived the whole world and is teaching churches through pastors and priests you can break God's Ten Commandments, they were nailed to the cross, but if read carefully one would clearly see that isn't the case. The law that defines sin Romans 7:7 Matthew 5:19:30 that Jesus tells us not to break or teach others to break the least of these as it will affect our status in heaven and will be in fear of judgement and sin so we should believe His teachings over mans.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

One of the last verses in the bible before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. Compare this to the very next verse v15

The path is narrow and few find it because they believe man over the very Words of Jesus Mat 15:3-9 Mark 7:7-8 Mat 5:19-30 John 14:15 John 15:10 who came not only to take the penalty of sin, but came to be our example of how to live who kept the Sabbath and all of God's commandments. Follow Him, He will lead us back to Him for eternity!
Pastors are NOT teaching 'don't follow Jesus' commandments'

I don't know where you get that!

They may be saying that the OT mosaic laws and Levitical laws aren't binding on NT believers in churches. That is the truth of the NT.

But Jesus' commands are usually pushed by pastors to be followed through New Testament church service.

Also ..at salvation from Jesus..a believer is indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

So...the grace and mercy given through that indwelling stays when we trip up in service to Jesus, who is God.

Now... You have not said you are saved by law keeping..but I'm guessing with your nick..you are saying a believer WILL keep the Law... With the OT mosaic and Levitical laws ..

This is faith + works to be saved, or works to 'prove' you are saved.

Either back loading or front loading works into salvation.

That is heresy.

Now maybe you don't believe this kind of law keeping..if so I withdraw..but the plain fact of the matter is service to God is not thru law keeping but by His grace in His New Testament churches.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
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#26
If we were to just read this would it carry any weight about the subject ?
In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, and in Deuteronomy 13:1-5, the way that God instructed His people to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking him was if they taught against obeying the Mosaic Law, so if your post were correct, then according to God, Jesus was a sinner and a false prophet and therefore not our Savior. The members of the Jerusalem Council were servants of God and Jesus is God's word made flesh, so it should not make sense to you to interpret them as speaking obeying God's word.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked ( 1 John 2:6). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross (Acts 21:20), which means that you are essentially interpreting the Jerusalem Council as ruling that Gentiles shouldn't follow Christ.

‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What if we just kept reading to see what they concluded ? And sent to the churches ….Would it matter at all or onfluence what we’re willing to think ?

there’s a huge debate and they ( the chosen and annointed apostles of Jesus all filled with thee holy ghost ) come to this conclusion
The Mosaic Law was given by God and the Spirit is God, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it under the New Covenant (Ezekiel 36:26-27), but you are essentially interpreting the Spirit leading the Jerusalem Council to rule against following the Spirit, which again should not make sense to you.

In Acts 15:1, there was a group of men from Judea who were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to result in becoming saved. In Acts 15:5, they were opposed by a group of Pharisees from among the believers who were wanting Gentiles to become circumcised and obey the Law of Moses, but not in order to result in becoming saved, so the dispute between the two groups was not in regard to whether Gentiles should become circumcised and obey the Law of Moses, but in regard to the way to become saved. In Acts 15:6-9, Peter spoke about Gentiles believing the Gospel and about Gentiles receiving the Spirit, both of which are in support of Gentiles obeying the Mosaic Law. In Acts 15:10-11, they ruled that Gentiles are saved by grace, which means that they ruled in favor of the group of Pharisees from among the believers in Acts 15:5 and against the burden that no one could bear of salvation by circumcision that was prosed in Acts 15:1.

‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Not only is it not part of Christianity it’s actually a detriment and subversion to someone to try to put the same yoke back on them that doomed all sinners to begin with …Jesus is our yoke and the gospel his law
It should not make sense to you to think that it is subverting people's souls by teaching them to obey what God has commanded in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow.

Either Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list of everything that would ever be required of a mature Gentile believer or it does not, so it is contradictory to treat it as being a non-exhaustive list by saying that there are obviously other commands that Gentiles should follow, such as the greatest two commandments, while also treating it as being an exhaustive list to limit which ways Gentiles should follow Christ. In Acts 15:19-21, it was not given as an exhaustive list for mature believers, but as stated, it was given as a list in order to avoid making making things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying that Gentiles would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues. Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and in Matthew 11:28-30, he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, not inviting people to refuse to learn from his example.

…this doesn’t save it condemns

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬
It is living in disobedience to the Mosaic Law that condemns while obedience to it brings life and a blessing, so choose life! (Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Romans 10:5-8). God did not give His law with the goal of condemning His children, but rather it was given as a gift to teach us the way of life (Proverbs 6:23).

this saves those who were condemned

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭
The Mosaic Law is God's word, so it is contradictory to think that the Mosaic Law was given to condemn while hearing God's word saves those who were condemned. God's word is His instructions for how to believe in God's word made flesh, or in other words, the way to believe in the one who is the embodiment of God's word is by embodying God's word through following his example of obedience to it, which is why Jesus also said both that believing in him and obedience to God's commandments is the way to have eternal life (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28).

Jesus wasn’t preaching Moses law it’s why he was teaching the opposite …..”get divorced for any reason and your free to remarry “said Moses …..no don’t get divorced but for the cause of fornication and elsewise remarriage is itself adultery “


If I were to keep Moses law it would mean I’m free to divorce my wife just by deciding she’s not what I want I found some flaws then I could get a divorce and remarry and so could she

That’s what Moses taught Jesus said to do that would be adultery here’s what Moses law says

“When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭24:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

here’s what Jesus our lord said about it

“And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.

And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.


And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

…….And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭10:2-5, 11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in no way are these two things same they weren’t meant to be one is for sinners with no Holy Spirit the other is for born again children of God who have been forgiven and are being taught the truth of God

I mean go ahead and get divorced if you want and remarry


only divorce for adultery and remarriage in any other case would be adultery by either party

There’s no way to say both of those are one they are contrary to obey what Moses said would be adultery according to Jesus
Jesus is one with the Father, so it should not make sense to you think that Jesus was disagreeing with what the Father had instructed. In Deuteronomy 24:1-4, the Mosaic Law instructs for there to be are writ of divorcement, so a husband putting away his wife without giving her a writ of divorcement in order to marry another is committing adultery against her, so what Jesus was saying was in accordance with the Mosaic Law.

The law is for these people
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬
In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law. To be righteous means to be someone who practices righteousness in obedience to the Mosaic Law (1 John 3:7), so it is not the person who is practicing righteousness that instructions for how to practice righteousness are for, but rather it is the unrighteous who need to be taught instructions for how to practice righteousness. It would be absurd to interpret 1 Timothy 1:9-10 as saying that practicing righteousness is only for the unrighteous. Those who interpret those verses as saying that they are free to practice unrighteousness because God's law is only for the righteous thereby become someone that God's law is for.

moses would never and did never teach anything like what Jesus taught
The same God who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus in fulfilled of the promise to turn us from our wickedness and to teach us how to obey the Law of Moses, so there is no disagreement.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
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#27
But you forgot all about the commandments of Christ. Actually you have no clue about these matters. "Keeping God's law" would mean strict adherence to all 613 commandments (if that number is accurate). And since the temple does not exist in Jerusalem, you could not possibly keep all of God's Law. But for Christians keeping God's law means observing the Law of Love.
In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, so Christ did not do that. The Israelites were given a number of laws while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years that had the condition "when you enter the land...", so there is nothing wrong with having laws that can't currently be followed. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarizes the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so it is the Law of Love.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
771
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#28
@SabbathBlessing Who has bewitched you?

1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so Galatians should not be interpreted as speaking against following Christ's example of obedience to God. It is absurd to interpret God's word as saying that it is foolish to obey God's word. In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with Christ being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to Gentiles in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that "works of the law" are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to God. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-12.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
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#29
1 Thess. 5:19~~Do not quench the Spirit,

Eph 4:30~~Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Eph 5:18~~And do not get drunk with wine, in which there is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

Gal 5:16~~But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

Rom 8~~ 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law, and in Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of sin. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. In Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law. After all, the Mosaic Law was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it is the Law of the Spirit.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
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#30
Now... You have not said you are saved by law keeping..but I'm guessing with your nick..you are saying a believer WILL keep the Law... With the OT mosaic and Levitical laws ..

This is faith + works to be saved, or works to 'prove' you are saved.

Either back loading or front loading works into salvation.

That is heresy.

Now maybe you don't believe this kind of law keeping..if so I withdraw..but the plain fact of the matter is service to God is not thru law keeping but by His grace in His New Testament churches.
In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed in all of our ways and He will make our way straight. So it is not that we need to add obedience to our trust as if trust were insufficient, but that obedience to God's instructions is the way to trust Him to correctly divide between right and wrong. When someone obeys God's law, then the significance is not that it is part of what they are requires to do in order to earn their salvation as the result, but rather the significance is that they are expressing faith and it is by that faith that they are saved.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21 and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having first obeyed it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the gift of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is not that we are required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result, and it is not that we are required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,054
1,032
113
New Zealand
#31
In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed in all of our ways and He will make our way straight. So it is not that we need to add obedience to our trust as if trust were insufficient, but that obedience to God's instructions is the way to trust Him to correctly divide between right and wrong. When someone obeys God's law, then the significance is not that it is part of what they are requires to do in order to earn their salvation as the result, but rather the significance is that they are expressing faith and it is by that faith that they are saved.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21 and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having first obeyed it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the gift of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is not that we are required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result, and it is not that we are required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.
That is a bit complex. I think you are mixing up initial salvation verses with the daily walk with Jesus.

Abraham.. believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness before he offered up his son Isaac.

He believed and was converted apart from works.

Rahab had faith to begin with before doing her act for God. Same goes for the other examples of faith.

Justification for eternal life.

A justified act before God

Different things. One is not dependent on the other

This is about Jesus' atonement for sin...full and complete..nothing left out.. completely efficious for who has believed in Him. And for those who will.

Works are a right response to this atonement..but not part of it.

Salvation verses are plentiful in the book of John and must be compared with Titus 2:11-13.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#32
I think you are mixing up initial salvation verses with the daily walk with Jesus.
And that is done with full knowledge of what is actually in Scripture. Which means that some posters refuse to believe what is actually written.
 

Aaron56

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Jul 12, 2021
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#33
Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, so Galatians should not be interpreted as speaking against following Christ's example of obedience to God. It is absurd to interpret God's word as saying that it is foolish to obey God's word. In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with Christ being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to Gentiles in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that "works of the law" are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to God. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-12.
It's too bad you don't recognize the words of Christ in Paul, Peter, John who carried His ministry further. Jesus taught under the Law. Paul, Peter, John did not. You can see the transition in their writings if you understand the changes that Jesus secured in His death and resurrection.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#34
Many people miss the limits of the law. It was given to the people at Sinai only:

The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.”

Paul addresses this:

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.”

A promise relies upon the character of the promiser. The Law is a legally binding contract. What binds the promise of the Father to the Son (and by extension all of us who are in Him) is the love of the Father to the Son and the love of the Son to the Father. The law is defined by the ability of the parties (God and man) The promise, however, is governed by love. That is why it is written:

“And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight“

Under the promise we certainly have commandments. Here they are:

” And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.”

And this is what Paul meant:

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

The “yoke of bondage” is the law. If you follow the law, which had no effect on the promise given 430 prior, you have fallen from grace.

It cannot be more plain.
 

Aaron56

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Jul 12, 2021
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#35
If the sabbath was made for man and not God, and, in Christ, we represent the Melchizedek priesthood; and the Melchizedek priesthood represents God before the people, by what ordination is the sabbath observed by believers?

If we say that we ought to rest from our works 1 day out of seven, I'll take you to the scripture that declares a higher standard:

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

This is a cessation from all man's works, not merely 1/7 of them. And notice the representation of God in us: "...as God did from His."

This is consistent with Jesus revealing the new standard of love:

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

This goes beyond the Law that demands a level of love for others akin to our love for ourselves. The standard of our love for one another is the same standard as God's love for us.

Furthermore, as priests of Melchizedek, WE represent the work God is doing in the earth:

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

This "prepared beforehand" (proetoimazō ) is the time-frame of our ordination. I believe this corresponds to Christ.

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

Fellowship literally means of likeness and kind to one another. John writes that truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. This does not mean that we attended the same potluck. No. This means that we are of likeness and kind to the Father and Son. This is true in the Spirit.

Therefore, our standard of life is a reflection of the life the Father had with the Son from the beginning. This is from the beginning of creation. (To note: it is to this fellowship we are restored in Christ!).

In conclusion:
1/7 will not do.
Following a Law that was added because of sin will not do.
Setting aside some of our work on a certain day will not do. We have no work of our own, we are not our own to command.

We will be led by the Spirit of our Father and Christ into works that were prepared for us from the beginning of creation. This life reflects the life Christ had with the Father from the beginning. The ruling Law over our lives is "Son of His Love".
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

Well-known member
Apr 1, 2023
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#36
In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Mosaic Law, so Christ did not do that. The Israelites were given a number of laws while they were still wandering the wilderness for 40 years that had the condition "when you enter the land...", so there is nothing wrong with having laws that can't currently be followed. In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarizes the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so it is the Law of Love.
Jesus was speaking about the 10 commandments, how can you be so confused? Use your head please. are you jewish?
 
Dec 13, 2023
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#37
If the sabbath was made for man and not God, and, in Christ, we represent the Melchizedek priesthood; and the Melchizedek priesthood represents God before the people, by what ordination is the sabbath observed by believers?

If we say that we ought to rest from our works 1 day out of seven, I'll take you to the scripture that declares a higher standard:

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. .
The Sabbath was made for man right in Creation week. Man came first Gen 1:26 , created in the image of God (this is important as it touches on your post and will get to a little later) and the Sabbath came after man was created Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around

God rested on the seventh day from all of His works, not because God needs rest, because God always has always shown man by example.

On creation week after God worked six days He rested on the seventh from all of His work and hallowed the Sabbath Exo 20:11 and man followed God as He was created in His image and the Sabbath made for man (and the Greek word here means mankind) and the Sabbath is about a relationship with God the day God blessed, sanctified and made holy to rest with man and to sanctify because man can't sanctify themselves, only God can Eze 20:12 and when we keep this commandment it is a memorial that we are worshipping the one true God Eze 20:20 the everlasting God Rev 14:7

You missed a very important passage regarding God's rest because as shown we are made in the image to follow God.

Hebrews 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

We enter into His rest in faith, and we ALSO cease (rest) from our works as God did from His. When did God rest from His works? If we allow scripture to direct our ways it tells us which is how we seek Truth from His Word and the only way we are sanctified through Truth.

Hebrews 4:4 For He (God) has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;

This really can't be any clearer. It is stated at least three times in scripture- right from the beginning....

Genesis 2:2 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

I believe it is important to let God's Word speak for itself and not try to reinterpret as we will miss God's still voice speaking to us though His holy Word.

I will address the rest in a separate post to follow. . .
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,540
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#38
The Sabbath was made for man right in Creation week. Man came first Gen 1:26 , created in the image of God (this is important as it touches on your post and will get to a little later) and the Sabbath came after man was created Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around

God rested on the seventh day from all of His works, not because God needs rest, because God always has always shown man by example.

On creation week after God worked six days He rested on the seventh from all of His work and hallowed the Sabbath Exo 20:11 and man followed God as He was created in His image and the Sabbath made for man (and the Greek word here means mankind) and the Sabbath is about a relationship with God the day God blessed, sanctified and made holy to rest with man and to sanctify because man can't sanctify themselves, only God can Eze 20:12 and when we keep this commandment it is a memorial that we are worshipping the one true God Eze 20:20 the everlasting God Rev 14:7

You missed a very important passage regarding God's rest because as shown we are made in the image to follow God.

Hebrews 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

We enter into His rest in faith, and we ALSO cease (rest) from our works as God did from His. When did God rest from His works? If we allow scripture to direct our ways it tells us which is how we seek Truth from His Word and the only way we are sanctified through Truth.

Hebrews 4:4 For He (God) has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;

This really can't be any clearer. It is stated at least three times in scripture- right from the beginning....

Genesis 2:2 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

I believe it is important to let God's Word speak for itself and not try to reinterpret as we will miss God's still voice speaking to us though His holy Word.

I will address the rest in a separate post to follow. . .
No, just answer the question I had: what day is the Sabbath? Saturday or Sunday?

Than answer: are you a Seventh Day Adventist? or maybe easier, in what building do you gather on the sabbath?
 
Dec 13, 2023
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#39
Part 2
This goes beyond the Law that demands a level of love for others akin to our love for ourselves. The standard of our love for one another is the same standard as God's love for us.

Furthermore, as priests of Melchizedek, WE represent the work God is doing in the earth:

"For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

This "prepared beforehand" (proetoimazō ) is the time-frame of our ordination. I believe this corresponds to Christ.

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.

Fellowship literally means of likeness and kind to one another. John writes that truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. This does not mean that we attended the same potluck. No. This means that we are of likeness and kind to the Father and Son. This is true in the Spirit.
I find it weird you agree we are to be the likeness of the Father, but what to remove what makes up His character- not following God at Creation to hallow the Sabbath Exo 20:11 that was made for us Mark 2:27 and God's holy and eternal law that reflect His character that we are to take on... you remove God's holy law, you are essentially removing God and depending on our own righteousness and not God's Psa 119:172, our own sanctification and not God's Eze 20:12, our truth, not God's Psalms 119:151

God is Good:
Luke 18:19 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God

God’s law is Good:
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

God is Holy:
Isaiah 5:16 But the Lord of hosts shall be exalted in judgment,
And God who is holy shall be hallowed in righteousness.

God’s law is Holy:
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

God is Just:
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect;
For all His ways are justice,
A God of truth and without injustice;
Righteous and upright is He.

God’s laws are Just: Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

God is Perfect:
Mathew 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

God’s law is Perfect:
Psalms 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

God is Love
1 John 4:8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

God's law is Love:
Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

God is Righteous
Exodus 9:27 2 And Pharaoh sent and called for Moses and Aaron, and said to them, “I have sinned this time. The Lord is righteous, and my people and I are wicked.

God’s laws are Righteous
Psalms 19:9 The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the LORD are firm, and all of them are righteous.
Psalms 119:172 My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness.

God is Truth:
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He.

God’s law is Truth:
Psalms 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Psalms 119:151 You are near, O LORD, And all Your commandments are truth.

God is Pure:
1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

God’s laws are Pure:
Psalms 19:8 the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;

God is Spiritual:
John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

God’s law is Spiritual:
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

God is Unchangeable:
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God’s laws are Unchangeable:
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

God is Eternal
Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.

God’s laws are Eternal
Psalms 111:7,8 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, And are done in truth and uprightness
 
Dec 13, 2023
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#40
Therefore, our standard of life is a reflection of the life the Father had with the Son from the beginning. This is from the beginning of creation. (To note: it is to this fellowship we are restored in Christ!).

In conclusion:
1/7 will not do.
Following a Law that was added because of sin will not do.
Setting aside some of our work on a certain day will not do. We have no work of our own, we are not our own to command.

We will be led by the Spirit of our Father and Christ into works that were prepared for us from the beginning of creation. This life reflects the life Christ had with the Father from the beginning. The ruling Law over our lives is "Son of His Love".
You seem to be using your words and not scripture, what does scripture say is the law that defines sin...

In the bible they use principles, when quoted from the Ten it means all -James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30 just like when one of the greates commandments is only quoted it means both.

What law is being quoted to define sin? The Ten Commandments which is why it is under the mercy seat in God's heavenly Temple Rev 11:19 and what the earthy temple was patterned after Hebrews 8:1-5

Romans 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

I trust Jesus is a reliable and believable source? He quotes from the Ten Commandments stating if we break we are in fear of sin and judgement and said not to break or teach others to break the least of these and in doing so one would be least in heaven and if you compare that to His teachings on the Ten Commandments in Matthew 15in doing so one falls in a ditch, means off the narrow path. Here Jesus is applying the Ten Commandments to our thoughts and feelings as that is where sin starts.

Matthew 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [e]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of [h]hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

Matthew 5:27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

This really can't be more clear! The Ten Commandments is what defines sin the law that came because of sin until the Seed would come is animal sacrifices as it always pointed forward to Christ because the blood of animals could not take away the sins of the world but the blood of Christ is PERFECT for cleaning us of all sin and unrighteousness 1 John 1:9 but many do not take Christ up on His free offer but prefer staying in darkness (sin) instead of coming to the light (truth), when Jesus came to free us of the bondage of sin and walk with Him in His righteousness. The Ten Commandments is called the law of liberty because one is free of sin and that bondage James 2:10-12

This is the law that ended, not what defines sin, God's eternal commandments that reflects His very character.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things [c]to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, [d]sanctifies for the [e]purifying of the flesh, 14


Hebrews 10:1 For the law (animal sacrifices), having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once [a]purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This truly cannot be any clearer!

Which is why God's people through faith and love to God keep His commandments until the very end of time! Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 Rev 12:17 but sadly it is just a remnant although God's free gift is available to everyone.