The Commandments of God (according to scripture)

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,721
6,437
113
62
#61
Sadly people get so caught up in this they miss they very teachings of Jesus and your response does not really address the scriptures in the post you are replying to. Jesus said heaven and earth would pass before one i or t from His law would pass therefore not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments as it affects our status in heaven quoting from the Ten Commandments Mat 5:17-30 is heaven Old Covenant? Sadly many believe in Jesus, but do not believe in His teachings. Jesus warns us about this Mat 7:21-23
Your conclusion is false. Jesus' words do not have anymore authority than those penned by Paul. By placing a priority on the words of Jesus, you inadvertently tie yourself to the old covenant. Paul's words are Jesus' words. And they explain how to live given the new spiritual reality of believers.
 

SabbathBlessing

Well-known member
Dec 13, 2023
1,044
173
63
#62
Your conclusion is false. Jesus' words do not have anymore authority than those penned by Paul. By placing a priority on the words of Jesus, you inadvertently tie yourself to the old covenant. Paul's words are Jesus' words. And they explain how to live given the new spiritual reality of believers.
So Paul is equal to Jesus? This is not what Jesus says...

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.

Paul taught what Jesus taught. Paul kept every Sabbath, He taught what matters is keeping the commandments of God, the same commandments that Jesus taught Mat 5:19-30 Mat 7:7-8

Paul's words came with a warning and people in his day twisted them just as many still do today sadly.

2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Paul was a servant of Jesus and followed Jesus.He believed and trusted the teachings of Jesus and followed and taught them as should we.

Now I really must run. Please enjoy your day!
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

Well-known member
Apr 1, 2023
974
596
93
#63
Your conclusion is false. Jesus' words do not have anymore authority than those penned by Paul. By placing a priority on the words of Jesus, you inadvertently tie yourself to the old covenant. Paul's words are Jesus' words. And they explain how to live given the new spiritual reality of believers.
I disagree, how can you say that Paul's words are equal to Jesus words who is the son of GOD / one with God? Jesus'words are the words of GOD. Could Paul ever do what Jesus did? Does Paul have the same authority as Jesus? Certainly NOT.

Peace.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,721
6,437
113
62
#64
So Paul is equal to Jesus? This is not what Jesus says...

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.

Paul taught what Jesus taught. Paul kept every Sabbath, He taught what matters is keeping the commandments of God, the same commandments that Jesus taught Mat 5:19-30 Mat 7:7-8

Paul's words came with a warning and people in his day twisted them just as many still do today sadly.

2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Paul was a servant of Jesus and followed Jesus.He believed and trusted the teachings of Jesus and followed and taught them as should we.

Now I really must run. Please enjoy your day!
No one is equal to God. Neither did I suggest such a thing. I wrote that the words Paul penned were as authoritative as any Jesus spoke. Do you believe this is true?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,721
6,437
113
62
#65
I disagree, how can you say that Paul's words are equal to Jesus words who is the son of GOD / one with God? Jesus'words are the words of GOD. Could Paul ever do what Jesus did? Does Paul have the same authority as Jesus? Certainly NOT.

Peace.
They aren't Paul's words. He merely wrote them down. He received them from Jesus, much the same way old testament prophets received what they wrote.
The entire Bible is the words of Christ.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,749
1,573
113
#66
I disagree, how can you say that Paul's words are equal to Jesus words who is the son of GOD / one with God? Jesus'words are the words of GOD. Could Paul ever do what Jesus did? Does Paul have the same authority as Jesus? Certainly NOT.

Peace.
Either Paul wrote what he received from the Spirit or He wrote his own ideas. If Paul wrote what he received from the Spirit then they are the words of God.

This was prophesied by Jesus Himself:

"However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you."

Notice it was not "whatever He hears He will write". No. He spoke to men and women Spirit to spirit. The people then wrote it down.

Ultimately what the Spirit speaks is from the Father.

Father gives to the Son gives to the Spirit gives it to man. Sometimes what is to be given is given to angels to deliver to man. Either way, their origin is the same: God.
 

Soyeong

Active member
Oct 11, 2023
846
101
43
#67
Jesus was speaking about the 10 commandments, how can you be so confused? Use your head please. are you jewish?
The phrase “Law and the Prophets” straightforwardly refers to everything in the Law and the Prophets, not to just ten of its commandments. Jesus said that all of the other commandments hang on the greatest two, so if you think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should also think that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them. For example, if we live God and our neighbor, then we won’t commit idolatry, adultery, murder, or theft, but we also won’t commit rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of God’s commandments. I am Jewish because my mom was Jewish, though I grew up culturally as a Baptist, so whether or not I am Jewish makes no difference to my theology.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,749
1,573
113
#68
The phrase “Law and the Prophets” straightforwardly refers to everything in the Law and the Prophets, not to just ten of its commandments. Jesus said that all of the other commandments hang on the greatest two, so if you think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should also think that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them.
What if there was a record of those two commandments being usurped by greater ones? Would you then believe?

Matthew, chapter 22:34-36, “Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: ‘Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?’”

Now, you’ll note that. Indeed, a lawyer, under the law could only ask Him a question about the law. He couldn’t ask Him about the new commandment; he was unaware of the new commandment. So the context of this question and the answer, both have to do with the law. What is the greatest commandment?

Matthew 22:37-40Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.’” (Inserted-Matthew 22:37-40)

His answer, summarized the teachings of the Law and the Prophets and in this, His answer is solidly to be found in the Law. This is the very thing that is to be replaced. But today most people think if you keep the 10 commandments and if you love your neighbor as yourself then you have done everything that God could have required. Now if you look at these two commandments you will immediately observe that they are foundationally different. Why? Because the standard is different.

In the first case the “new” commandment has this as the standard: “…as I have loved you, so you should love one another.” The “old” commandment has this: “With all of your capacity to love so you should love God and so you should love one another.” Well you will notice that the standard of the “old” commandment is, of course, appropriate for the Law because the Law can only require you to do as much as it is possible for you to do. Objectively and theoretically it is possible to keep the Law because it does not require any more than all that you are capable of doing. It doesn’t say, “All that you feel like doing,” nor does it say, “All that you want to do.” It says, “All that you are capable of doing.” So when the Law says, “Love the Lord your God with all of your heart...” all of your heart means all of the capacity that lies within you to do. All, in fact, means all. It doesn’t say, “All that you want to do, all that you feel like doing, all that on certain occasions you may be inclined to do.” No, it requires all. So in that sense, the Law and the standard of the Law is not haphazard but it does point out that it is all that is humanly possible.

Furthermore, the Law was designed to keep the Jews alive. God could not ask a man to give up his own life under the Law. There was no promise of a new life in the Law. To ask a man to give up his life would be to make the Law unrighteous. A man cannot give up his own life and simultaneously keep his life.

The standard is appropriate for the Law because if the Law asks of anyone more than all then by the existence of the Law you’ve been made lawless. In other words: if it is all plus 10% then the Law makes you lawless because it has exceeded your capacity to respond. But the Law begins and ends with what you can do. And it has a lesser standard for loving your neighbor. Its objective standard regarding loving God is all that you are capable of doing. Its lesser standard in regards to loving your neighbor is, “…as you love yourself.” The presumption is that you love yourself pretty thoroughly. Now what if you didn’t love yourself? The Law simply requires you to love your neighbor in the same fashion, to the same extent.

What is the standard of the new and how is that different? The standard of the new is: “…as I have loved you.” Who is the “I” that is the measurement of this standard? The “I”, of course, is Christ, the one speaking. He is also the Living God. So the standard is: as Jesus has loved us so we are to love one another. Now what if you don’t love yourself? Well that is an irrelevant standard. He didn’t say, “as you love your neighbor, so you should love one another…” or “as I have occasionally loved you so you must love each other.” “As I have loved you” means “I, as God, have loved you perfectly; therefore I require you to love as God loves.” This is a fascinating standard because it’s the same standard for God as it is for man. The standard of love is the same for God as it is for man. That standard of the new commandment makes God and man equal on the matter of love. That’s an incredible observation. On the matter of love, God and man are equal.

Now don’t take my observation for that. Look at this: this is from Matthew5:48, Jesus is speaking. Now this verse of Scripture is very troubling. Matthew 5:48 says, “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” What we’ve done is we’ve read that verse out of its context and we have inferred meanings to it that it does not mean. For example we’ve inferred that it means “be perfect in power” and so people come up with thoughts like, “if you’re not healed it’s your fault; you don’t have enough faith, you do not exercise enough power.” So if things go badly it’s your fault. God has given you all power, God has given you all faith, and so on, and if you do these things less than perfectly then it is your fault. Well that’s garbage because God would not require us to be perfect in power, whatever power we have is His power given to us, and no one is made "all powerful". Therefore we could only operate in whatever measures of power He has given us. This Scripture is not about being perfect in power; it’s about being perfect in love.

Note the context: jump back to verse 43 “‘You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies…” (so the context is love) “..and pray for those who persecute you…” Now why should you do that and how is this different? You must do that so that you can be sons of your Father in heaven, "..that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” It means that just as natural children resemble their natural parents and the nature of natural children is like the nature of their natural parents, so the nature of the children of God is like the God Who is perfect in love. So it’s not surprising to us that the same standard would apply to God as would apply to us… in the matter of love. So that you will be as sons of your Father in heaven.

And then He gives us some examples of how he loves His enemies and does good for those who persecute Him. “He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous…”. Then He contrasts and He says, “If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even the pagans do that?” In short, to be like your Father in heaven it means that you do not simply love your enemies as you love yourselves or you love your neighbor as yourself; it is that you would love your enemy by preferring them over your own life and in that sense, and within that context it says, “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

The “old” commandment, under the Law, basically required you to love the extent of your capacity to love… love God as much as you are able and to love your neighbor as you are inclined to love yourself. That’s the “old” commandment. The “new” commandment says, “…as I have loved you.” And it establishes Christ as the standard for love. Christ being the Living God, the standard is the same for God as the standard is for man. Now the reason why the standard is the same is because, according to 2 Peter 1:4, the intent of God is that we be made to be partakers of the divine nature…"

“Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.” and "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature..."

The divine nature, the nature of God, is to love and to love perfectly; to love by preferring the life of another over your own life, to give up your life to God so that God would live through you. Now what’s left unanswered for us is: why? And furthermore, how does this prepare us to overcome the evil one?

Revelation 12:11 “They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.”) In this respect we are meant to be exactly as God—perfect in love—the same standard that applies to God applies to us and this is the measure that displays the reality that we are partakers of the divine nature.

By this it is abundantly clear that the “new” commandment is not simply the “old” commandment rehashed. It has the elements of a totally different standard, the same standard for God and man.
 
Dec 14, 2023
390
65
28
#69
Either Paul wrote what he received from the Spirit or He wrote his own ideas
Just wondering how You would determine this question based upon Your answer. When Paul wrote, I wished everyone spoke in tongues as much as I do, is that Paul or the Holy Spirit speaking?
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,749
1,573
113
#70
Just wondering how You would determine this question based upon Your answer. When Paul wrote, I wished everyone spoke in tongues as much as I do, is that Paul or the Holy Spirit speaking?
Both. The Spirit gives it to Paul. Paul writes it. The spiritual man is not independent of the Spirit of God.

Very similar to the words of Jesus: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem... how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

Well-known member
Apr 1, 2023
974
596
93
#71
The phrase “Law and the Prophets” straightforwardly refers to everything in the Law and the Prophets, not to just ten of its commandments. Jesus said that all of the other commandments hang on the greatest two, so if you think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should also think that we should obey all of the commandments that hang on them. For example, if we live God and our neighbor, then we won’t commit idolatry, adultery, murder, or theft, but we also won’t commit rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for the rest of God’s commandments. I am Jewish because my mom was Jewish, though I grew up culturally as a Baptist, so whether or not I am Jewish makes no difference to my theology.
Christ used "law and prophets" because he fulfilled the LAW and prophecy. Jesus our messiah was teaching the commandments not the laws instituted by Moses, this is why the book of the law was kept outside the ark of the covenant, they are not for the gentiles many of these laws are good but many cannot be applied today as you know. the commandments are issued from the LOVE GOD has for us He wants us to be HOLY as he is HOLY. His commandments are LOVE!

Blessings.
 
Dec 14, 2023
390
65
28
#72
Both. The Spirit gives it to Paul. Paul writes it. The spiritual man is not independent of the Spirit of God.

Very similar to the words of Jesus: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem... how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing."
I like this answer. God wants everyone to speak in tongues as much as Paul did. I definitely agree to that.
 

SabbathBlessing

Well-known member
Dec 13, 2023
1,044
173
63
#73
No one is equal to God. Neither did I suggest such a thing. I wrote that the words Paul penned were as authoritative as any Jesus spoke. Do you believe this is true?
What you are doing is pitting the words of Paul against the Words of Jesus as if Paul taught something different than Jesus. Paul didn't, as it is Jesus who has ALL authority in heaven and earth He is the Authority of all Authorities, the God of all God's and the Lord of Lords and Jesus commanded the apostles to observe everything He commanded. We are to live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God and Paul is not God. Just like Paul or any man does not have the authority to reverse something God blessed Num 23:20

No doubt Paul words are inspired, but many times in scripture Jesus had to correct Paul because at times he was hurting Jesus by his teachings. Plus Paul is hard to understand, 2 Peter 3:16 Jesus is not and if one prefers Paul's misunderstood words to the plain teaching of Jesus doesn't seem like having faith in His every Word, Jesus is the Authority, Paul did not go away from His teachings and either should we.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,721
6,437
113
62
#74
What you are doing is pitting the words of Paul against the Words of Jesus as if Paul taught something different than Jesus. Paul didn't, as it is Jesus who has ALL authority in heaven and earth He is the Authority of all Authorities, the God of all God's and the Lord of Lords and Jesus commanded the apostles to observe everything He commanded. We are to live by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God and Paul is not God. Just like Paul or any man does not have the authority to reverse something God blessed Num 23:20

No doubt Paul words are inspired, but many times in scripture Jesus had to correct Paul because at times he was hurting Jesus by his teachings. Plus Paul is hard to understand, 2 Peter 3:16 Jesus is not and if one prefers Paul's misunderstood words to the plain teaching of Jesus doesn't seem like having faith in His every Word, Jesus is the Authority, Paul did not go away from His teachings and either should we.
Paul wrote after Jesus' words were recorded. Where, pray tell, does Jesus correct Paul's doctrine?
And you are accusing me of what you have demonstrably done by giving greater weight to Jesus' words. I don't believe there is any inconsistency in scripture. But that doesn't mean there aren't changes made as one covenant draws to a close and another introduced. In fact, one should expect such changes.
 

NightTwister

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2023
2,076
775
113
65
Colorado, USA
#75
Your conclusion is false. Jesus' words do not have anymore authority than those penned by Paul. By placing a priority on the words of Jesus, you inadvertently tie yourself to the old covenant. Paul's words are Jesus' words. And they explain how to live given the new spiritual reality of believers.
True "red letter" Bibles would have all of the text in red.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,675
29,016
113
#76
Many people miss the limits of the law. It was given to the people at Sinai only:

The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord did not make this
covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.”


Paul addresses this:

And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant
that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. For if the
inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.”


A promise relies upon the character of the promiser. The Law is a legally binding contract.
What binds the promise of the Father to the Son (and by extension all of us who are in Him)
is the love of the Father to the Son and the love of the Son to the Father. The law is defined by
the ability of the parties (God and man) The promise, however, is governed by love. That is why it is written:

“And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep
His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight“


Under the promise we certainly have commandments. Here they are:

” And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of
His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.”


And this is what Paul meant:

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with
a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


The “yoke of bondage” is the law. If you follow the law, which had no
effect on the promise given 430 prior, you have fallen from grace.

It cannot be more plain.

Romans 3:19-20 plus James 2:10
 

SabbathBlessing

Well-known member
Dec 13, 2023
1,044
173
63
#77
Paul wrote after Jesus' words were recorded. Where, pray tell, does Jesus correct Paul's doctrine?
And you are accusing me of what you have demonstrably done by giving greater weight to Jesus' words. I don't believe there is any inconsistency in scripture. But that doesn't mean there aren't changes made as one covenant draws to a close and another introduced. In fact, one should expect such changes.
Again you are pitting Paul against Jesus. This is what Paul and the apostles were told by Jesus.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.

Jesus is the Authority, and when Jesus died on the Cross- It Is Finished- nothing can be added or changed to His covenant.

Paul never taught anything different than what Jesus commanded Him. He did say after his death

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

Well-known member
Apr 1, 2023
974
596
93
#78
No one is equal to God. Neither did I suggest such a thing. I wrote that the words Paul penned were as authoritative as any Jesus spoke. Do you believe this is true?
I do not for many reasons which I will not elaborate here If I could prove this for myself so can you. Jesus words are the key.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,721
6,437
113
62
#79
Again you are pitting Paul against Jesus. This is what Paul and the apostles were told by Jesus.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.

Jesus is the Authority, and when Jesus died on the Cross- It Is Finished- nothing can be added or changed to His covenant.
The all things isn't simply the words of Jesus recorded in the Gospels. It would also include everything written in the epistles. You don't seem able to wrap your head around this concept. Things necessarily changed with the new covenant. You are stuck under the old covenant.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
18,721
6,437
113
62
#80
I do not for many reasons which I will not elaborate here If I could prove this for myself so can you. Jesus words are the key.
Your admission, unfortunately, is the source of some poor doctrine.