everything is predestined?

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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
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#81
Everyone must choose Christ today, and everyone will be given that opportunity. And yet, there are some who will never choose Him.
John 15:16, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. As you have stated, they were chosen before the foundation of the world, and called.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,137
30,278
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#82
I may be studying from a different version of the bible than you. I can't seem to find a scripture in the KJV that says "all people everywhere"

If you are referring to 2 Pet 3:9, I believe Peter is addressing his warning to them that have obtained like precious faith (2 Pet 1:1).

The natural man/kind, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, will not, and even, cannot repent of breaking one of God's spiritual laws
that he cannot receive (understand), and thinks they are foolishness, until he has been born again spiritually (Eph 2:1-5).
I think people can repent of wrongdoing and many do make attempts to be better people, but cannot accept the Biblical God, and that is the crux of the matter, for those attempts devoid of faith are as filthy rags. If you do a search of this page for Acts 17:30, you will see that twenty-eight (28) versions on the main page say everywhere (there may be more usages in additional translations). Heh, another says every where. And it is paired with some form of all men, such as all people, everyone, etc. KJV also says And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
864
346
63
#83
The entirety of the content and volume of God's Word can (and should!) be traced back to Genesis 3.

And every following spectacle and drama and action and reaction has an ultimate purpose:

To REFUTE and DISPROVE and DENOUNCE the lie of Satan (this lie declaring falsely that men and angels and all that which lives in God's sight does not have free will). And thereby glorifying God, His words being truth, His holiness being unimpeachable, His fairness and right to render justice being unchallenged.

And we must never lose sight of the fact that this drama is ON DISPLAY to the Angelic host (both fallen and unfallen), who are observing the entire drama play out. Who are witnesses for all eternity.

Another thought:
Satan and his host were created perfect, powerful, beautiful, righteous and without sin. And yet they CHOSE to rebel.
We (mere sons of Adam, created lower than the angels), were created INHERENTLY SINFUL......weak, dumb, ugly, sinful.

Yet, despite our lowly estate.......WE (Christians) BELIEVED GOD and abide, trusting in His mercy, goodness, truth of His word and promises, and earnestly await our final redemption. Despite the rigors and toil and suffering of this life.

How does that comparison make the Trinity look to all of the onlooking witnesses? Glorious.
How does that make us look? Pretty good. And rightfully justified.
How does that make the fallen angelic host look? Not so good. And rightfully deserving judgement.
Great stuff brother. We are smack dab in the middle of the angelic conflict.......And satan has done wonders at blinding us from this fact.

Mankind was created, as a lesser creation to PROVE to satan(all fallen angels/unbelievers) that God Is full of grace,mercy, love and He is JUST and fair in His final judgement of unbelievers and fallen angels.

We can be WILLING participants and Glorify God or we can sit and agree with satan that He is some sadistic, power hungry dictator. Calvinism agrees with satan(willy nilly electing for salvation). Armin agrees with satan.(loss of His salvation)
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,778
8,613
113
#84
Great stuff brother. We are smack dab in the middle of the angelic conflict.......And satan has done wonders at blinding us from this fact.

Mankind was created, as a lesser creation to PROVE to satan(all fallen angels/unbelievers) that God Is full of grace,mercy, love and He is JUST and fair in His final judgement of unbelievers and fallen angels.

We can be WILLING participants and Glorify God or we can sit and agree with satan that He is some sadistic, power hungry dictator. Calvinism agrees with satan(willy nilly electing for salvation). Armin agrees with satan.(loss of His salvation)
Yup. Good call bro.
 
Apr 27, 2023
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#85
What does that mean? God plays dice with evil?
I would rather say while God is quick, he still plays dice with the universe.

He uses Satan for his purposes. It isn't his purpose to do evil, but we quickly learn from it with a good mindset. I would rather say while God is quick to create things, he still plays dice with the universe.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,778
8,613
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#86
Velocity, acceleration, speed infers time.

God is outside of time. He is not bound by any of these.
He also is omniscient. Which is why He always has all of the right answers. Because ONLY HE has all of the information.

All of it.....

Which is why we should hear Him.

Mar 9:7
And a cloud came and overshadowed them; and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!”
 

glf

Active member
Mar 18, 2023
307
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#87
I tend to believe everything happens because it suppose to happen. What are your guys thoughts on that?
In the book of James, we're told, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil and neither does he temp any man. We each are tempted when we of our own lust are drawn away, and enticed..."

In Mt 10 "There hath no temptation taken you, but such as is common to man, but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able, but will with the temptation make a way to escape that you may be able to bear it."

In Deut 30, "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, for I have set life and death, blessing and cursing before you, choose life that both you and your seed might live."
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,778
8,613
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#88
John 15:16, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.
Sure. Jesus Messiah chose those who were to be His 12 apostles. The Bible makes that perfectly clear.
Did you erroneously think that Jesus was referring to something else? Like choosing them for salvation or something?
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,439
3,218
113
#90
I tend to believe everything happens because it suppose to happen. What are your guys thoughts on that?
No. If that was the case, there would be no point in praying. We pray, "Your will be done", because God's will is not being done. Somehow, God is able to weave all the events in a Christians' life into something good. But "supposed to happen"? Was David supposed to sleep with Bathsheba and murder her husband?

If God ordains sin then He is not being righteous when He punishes sin. So no, God knows all that will happen. He does not make it happen.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
#91
I would rather say while God is quick, he still plays dice with the universe.

He uses Satan for his purposes. It isn't his purpose to do evil, but we quickly learn from it with a good mindset. I would rather say while God is quick to create things, he still plays dice with the universe.
That does not tell me what "God plays dice with the universe" means.
 
Dec 18, 2023
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#93
Absolutely positively NOT!

In fact.....this is the Genesis 3 (and everywhere else too!) LIE OF SATAN. Satan is "merchandising" the lie that we are robots, we do not have "true life" and the God is a cosmic tyrant. THEREFORE HE (SATAN) CANNOT BE JUDGED FOR HIS SIN! Nor can anyone else.
Eve was deceived by this specific lie of Satan....and Adam was NOT DECEIVED! The fact that Adam CHOSE to eat of the fruit (to save Eve) is another proof of free will, as was the temptation by Satan itself.

Whereas the Scripture makes it plain time and time again ENDLESSLY that ALL of Gods creation has true free will......even Satan himself.

Read Job and the interactions between God, Satan and Job and understand that FREE WILL is clearly demonstrated by ALL PARTIES.

Gen 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
how come you raised this thread back to life from a few years ago 🤔
 
Dec 18, 2023
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#95
An act of my own free will. What other the reason could there be?
I don't know that's why I asked 🤔

I take it you knew the thread had been none responsive for a few years before you reopened it
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
864
346
63
#96
I tend to believe everything happens because it suppose to happen. What are your guys thoughts on that?
We know one thing for certain.........All flesh is predestined to see and hear about His salvation. And all flesh has the opportunity to accept it or reject it.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,778
8,613
113
#97
No. If that was the case, there would be no point in praying. We pray, "Your will be done", because God's will is not being done. Somehow, God is able to weave all the events in a Christians' life into something good. But "supposed to happen"? Was David supposed to sleep with Bathsheba and murder her husband?

If God ordains sin then He is not being righteous when He punishes sin. So no, God knows all that will happen. He does not make it happen.
Matthew 26:39 is proof positive that both the Father and the Son have their own discrete and unique freedom of will.

The Scriptures are filled with this freewill concept from one end to the other.
 

selahsays

Well-known member
May 31, 2023
2,796
1,484
113
#99
Sure. Jesus Messiah chose those who were to be His 12 apostles. The Bible makes that perfectly clear.
Did you erroneously think that Jesus was referring to something else? Like choosing them for salvation or something?
We disagree. God chose the Elect (believers in Christ) before the foundation of the world and predestined them for salvation. I know you don’t want to hear that, but I believe it’s true nonetheless. This verse is referring to His church.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,505
468
83
We disagree. God chose the Elect (believers in Christ) before the foundation of the world and predestined them for salvation. I know you don’t want to hear that, but I believe it’s true nonetheless. This verse is referring to His church.
Can you demonstrate from the preceding and subsequent context that Jesus is speaking about all the church and not just the apostles in John 15:16?.