June 10th, 1967

Did you even read the entire sermon?

If you read the entire sermon itself, it mentions at the end of section 8 and all of section 9 of that sermon that there are Christians present on earth during the Great Tribulation. It talks about God protecting "the just" in the desert. The phrase you think talks about pre-trib rapture is in section 2. In light of sections 8 and 9, the gathering could mean that God gathers or calls His people to flee to the desert (to places not well populated - NOT raptured away from the earth) where He will take care of them and protect them from the antichrist.

Pertinent excerpt:

End of Section 8

But those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent, bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the adders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs.

Section 9

Then, when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord; and indeed the unjust, so that they may be damned forever with their author the Devil, and, as God beholds the human race in danger and being tossed about by the breath of the horrible dragon, he sends to them consolatory proclamation by his attendants, the prophets Enoch and Elijah, who, while not yet tasting death, are the servants for the heralding of the second coming of Christ, and in order to accuse the enemy. And when those just ones have appeared, they confuse indeed the antagonistic serpent with his cleverness and they call back the faithful witnesses to God, in order to (free them) from his seduction . . . . .


So I'm not convinced at all that a pre-trib rapture is what the sermon writer was talking about. He's talking about God gathering them to the desert where they will be protected and cared for.


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Pretribbers DO believe there will be those (many) who will be coming to faith in Christ in/during/within the Tribulation Period (following "our Rapture"):

--the [believing] remnant of Israel... who will DO the "inviting TO" the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, aka the wedding feast/supper (i.e. "the guests [plural]"--also coming to faith in Christ in/during/within the Trib yrs).

^ The "FLEE [active]" passages/references in scripture are not speaking of "our Rapture" (we are "passive" recipients of that snatch-action / rapture)... so the "flee" verses (and related) are not referencing us / "the Church which is His body" (to/for/about whom "rapture" solely pertains).

Right.

In this sentence ^ , I see no reference to "the GREAT tribulation" in particular (meaning, that aspect which commences at the MID-point of the 7 years [/the 2nd half]), when they will do the "FLEE [active]" thing (Matt24:15,16,20,21 and Rev12:6,14); but is instead speaking of "[prior to] the tribulation that is to come... [...] that will overwhelm the whole world..." (like Rev3:10 speaks to, referring to when the 7-yrs in its entirety COMMENCES... so "prior to" SEAL #1, right!).


Secondly, where the sentence states "are gathered and will be taken by the Lord," this reflects where 1Th4 says, "the LORD HIMSELF shall descend..." and we'll be "caught up" TO the meeting of the Lord in the air... and "so [/in this way] shall we ever be WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] the Lord..."

....whereas at the time of His Second Coming (Rev19; Matt24:29-31/Isa27:9,12-13), He "SHALL SEND" His angels to do the gathering (the elect of Israel will be gathered "one by one" [not "AS ONE," as WE will be])... and that, at the "GREAT trumpet"... and gathered to one place upon the earth, [to] "worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM".

I believe Isaiah 26:13-21, esp vv.19,20 is Israel (then being called again "My people") being told to "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers... HIDE THYSELF..." (that's on the earth, during the Trib... not a "rapture").



So, yes, I don't see that sentence referring to any other of these matters.

How is that even possible for people to come to a saving knowledge when pre-tribbers believe that the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth???? If no Holy Spirit is present to guide people, it wouldn't matter if the remnant of Israel tried to evangelize people.

The Kingdom of God advances dramatically through persecution and death and have done so through all of Christian history. Why would God spare the generation of Christians before the great tribulation and not all the other Christians through all of Christian History? This is why Christians will remain on earth when the great tribulation arrives. We are the ones who are suppose to endure to the end and evangelize people.


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The topic is about the sermon though and not Scripture (which states very clearly the rapture is Post-Trib).

I also reread section 2. If you just pick that sentence out: "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Then people might think a pre-trib rapture is being mentioned. But if you read the next sentence after it, it appears that the tribulation the sermon writer is talking about is NOT the great tribulation, but the wrath of God afterwards: And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord*.

*empire of the Lord = The Lord's Kingdom during the Millennial Age.


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I agree

The temple is being built now.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

well that's similar to what I'm saying but not all of what you say is what i mean.

But yet you dismiss what I'm saying

The pre-trib doctrine is NOT that the Holy Spirit is REMOVED from the earth, but that His [present] "RESTRAINING" ROLE will change; God the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, right.

"the one restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he become [/come to be], AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed..."


This is parallel language to that of Lam2:3-4, which says, "... he hath DRAWN BACK [/withdrawn] his right hand FROM BEFORE THE ENEMY..." (i.e. LIFTING His RESTRAINT, and [consequently] allowing THE ENEMY to "have at 'em!"); same concept we find in Hab1:6,12, where it says that God used [yea, even "ordained"] the "Chaldeans [/Babylonians] FOR [/TO EXECUTE] JUDGMENT" (on them).
Where it says "he hath DRAWN BACK his right arm FROM BEFORE the enemy," that is a RESTRAINING that is being LIFTED/REMOVED (not that he chopped off his arm and placed it elsewhere outta this world. )


This doesn't mean the Holy Spirit will no longer have ANY role in this world (or no longer exist in this realm); it just means "the one restraining AT PRESENT" will no longer be in His "RESTRAINING" ROLE, and thus "that Wicked" shall be revealed (i.e. Seal #1 / the INITIAL "birth PANG" that KICKS OFF the 7-yr Tribulation Period), to DO ALL he is slated / prophesied TO DO during those "7 years."


Just as when Jesus had said the words He said in John 7:39 [please see this verse], about the HS's role upcoming (from the point in time when He spoke those words). Right? It wasn't that the HS did not exist in/on the earth (His role, prior to then), but that His "role" would change when Jesus was "glorified" (Jn7:39). It's not a matter of Him existing or not existing in/on the earth, but a matter of role (when for this, when for that).

2Th2 is speaking to His "restraining AT PRESENT" role... "UNTIL" (for a particular purpose).



[I believe the restrainer is the Holy Spirit / Holy-Spirit-indwelt-Church which is His body (both aspects)]

^ Recall also John 16:7 - "But I tell you the truth, it is profitable for you that I should go away; for unless I go away the Helper / Advocate / Comforter / Paraklētos [masc] will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you."

And is there is absolutely no chance in this world a 7 year tribulation period is false ?

Because the way I see it Jesus could appear and melt the antichrist in one day.

I'd have to refresh my memory by reading it again myself...

but taking what you say here (if this is indeed the case that these two sentences are placed one after the other in that text), let's put the two sentences together (and then I'll explain what I'm seeing... what I believe the point is, being made there, if that's actually how it reads):

If these two sentences really are placed that way, allow me to insert brackets of explanation, as to how I'm seeing this:

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered ["OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" i.e. raptured--to/for/about "the Church which is His body" and NO ONE ELSE], prior to the tribulation that is to come [per Rev3:10], and are taken to the Lord [1Th4:17 ("WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him") and 1Th3:13 and 1Th1:10, etc] lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me [the ones he's addressing in this writing], it is the eleventh hour ["it" i.e. the Tribulation period that will exist on the earth following "our Rapture," OR he could mean the LEAD-UP TO THAT rapture (i.e. presently/NOW being the 11th hr??)], and the end of the world comes to [i.e. the end of the age (TRIBULATION PERIOD) LEADS UP TO] the harvest [at the END of the Trib], and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands [the angels are the "REAPERS" - Mt13 (events surrounding His Second Coming to the earth CONTEXT [not a "rapture [IN THE AIR]" context])], awaiting the empire of the Lord* [awaiting the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 (and us WITH Him [from Heaven--"the marriage" and the "[to] PRESENT" pertains to there], Col3:4; Rev19:7 [distinct from v.9]; Lk12:36-37,38,40 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN "the meal [G347--i.e. the earthly MK age; see this Grk word also in Matt8:11 and its parallel, speaking of the MK age]--the "wise/righteous" on the earth in this passage NEVER LIFT OFF THE EARTH ("rapture" does NOT pertain to them)--they will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies, capable of reproducing/bearing children... Daniel 12:12 says, "BLESSED is he that WAITETH and COMETH TO the 1335 days" (i.e. ENTRANCE into the EARTHLY MK age... Same as about 7-8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking to this point)]."






As I see it, this writer (just as Irenaeus said) is saying the same things we Pre-tribbers are saying; it's just that people tend to CONFLATE things (like in what Irenaeus wrote), or SMOOSH things as though the writer is not covering "A SPANS OF TIME" (such as in Paul's 2 Thessalonians 2 [he covers ALL 7 YEARS!]... and this writing ^ above, as I've tried to spell out "explanation" regarding )


Hope that helps... = )

'fraid he did

totally

but it is not scripture ... by 450 ad the church was totally corrupt, it was fully Roman Catholic, was worshipping the bread and the virgin.

... and they had dumped the millennium doctrine.

The tribulation period starts with THE apostasy. All believers(His church/His body) are raptured out of the earth. Only unbelievers will be left on the earth. Will He find faith? No. But I believe, in a matter of moments there will be believers on the earth again. The rapture is going to be a pretty BIG witness to works salvation religious folks who have heard of this event.......they will have to endure to the end.

On an emotional and fair level? Why would I miss the trib and trib saints have to endure it? Well, His Church is not destined to endure His wrath. He is not a wife beater. He is not going to put His body through His wrath.

There are going to be people who are saved during the tribulation. But they will have to go through it. And many are killed during the trib.

the order of events are given in 2. Thess
1. the falling away
2 The man of sin is revealed
3. he will oppose everything called god
4. he will declare himself to be God
5.the Lord will destroy Him by His coming.

Tribulation = persecution. The Great Tribulation is the great end-times persecution when Antichrist seeks to stamp out all religion.
tribulation comes from the world.
Matthew 24.
"they shall deliver you up to tribulation and kill you ... "

The wrath of God falls upon the unrepentant after the rapture.

Correct. The idea of a pretrib rapture dates well before Darby.

Look this is false
Those Thessies were NOT worried that the day of judgement had come , Paul says very clearly, they were worried that their loved ones who had fallen asleep would miss the rapture, Paul says "don't worry the dead will rise FIRST and then we will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord"

... it isn't hard to unpick Darby's contrived teaching
The tribulation and God's wrath are two clear different things.

When Jesus first came as a babe we read that Herod was troubled [tribulated] and all Jerusalem with him and he slew all the babies under 2 years old. Tribulation comes from man. "in the world you shall have tribulation"

The Jews will rebuild their 3rd temple, and there is talks about rebuilding it and going back to animal sacrifices.

If the Jews have the means to go back to animal sacrifices they will do it because it is part of the Old Testament.

God said He is going to gather the whole house of Israel, all 12 tribes, back to their land, and leave none of them in the nations anymore, and they shall know the LORD their God from that time forward, and He will never hide His face from them again.

Which they will always be in the truth from that time forward.

WW1 involving Europe was a set up so League of Nations could be born.

WW2 involving Europe was a set up so United Nations could be born.

Controlled conflict brings about controlled change.

They want the new age movement to be the standard procedure of the world.

Europe is at it again but this time at odds with Russia as they want a one world government.

They do not believe the New Age Christ will help them to have peace, advance, and evolve, until the nations governments come together as one to work for peace on earth.

I believe the nations are working together and want a one world government.

When Israel and Hamas started fighting the nations divided themselves spewing out threats, and warnings, dividing themselves in to 2 groups siding with Israel, or the Arabs.

They are setting the stage for the New Age Christ to negotiate peace which will result in a peace treaty stopping the fighting between Israel and the Arabs, and the world that chose sides.

A one world government shall happen, and the world will be split in to 10 sections with a leader in each section who support the New Age Christ.

It will pave the way for all Hebrews to go to Israel for the Gentile nations will cause it to happen, and the New Age Christ wants them all back on their land, but God means it for good towards them.

The Jews will have a 3rd temple, and go back to animal sacrifices with no hassle from the Palestinians.

The Jews will split Jerusalem with the Palestinians.

After three and one half years the New Age Christ will step in to their temple, and tell them to stop animal sacrifices, and he is their God, and Messiah.

The next three and one half years Israel will be sent 2 witnesses to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.